Who isn't "Gaming" a stage when attending a match?

[sfinney]

This is supposed to be freestyle. Put multiple options in every stage, let the gamers, err, I mean shooters figure it out.

I've found in many cases the biggest "gamer" comments or protests come from people complaining with the "you didn't shoot it the way you were supposed to" type comments come from the stage designer, who's ego or pride is wounded that you didn't shoot his mini-disney ride as he designed, and "broke" it.

As a designer you have to set expectations and ego aside, make the course as challenging and fair as possible, and then turn it loose to the shooters. How they shoot it, within the exact wriiten stage description and current rule book, is up to them. Anything else is fluff.

side note: I hate stages where your every thought and movement, target engagement order, reloads, etc are writtten down for you to follow like a puppet on strings. Use your course design to force the action in the direction you want, with walls, ports, fault lines, etc. If some of the rats figures out a way to break out of your maze, build a better maze next time, don't just fix it with your pen.

[Shawn Knight]

This is supposed to be freestyle. Put multiple options in every stage, let the gamers, err, I mean shooters figure it out.

I've found in many cases the biggest "gamer" comments or protests come from people complaining with the "you didn't shoot it the way you were supposed to" type comments come from the stage designer, who's ego or pride is wounded that you didn't shoot his mini-disney ride as he designed, and "broke" it.

As a designer you have to set expectations and ego aside, make the course as challenging and fair as possible, and then turn it loose to the shooters. How they shoot it, within the exact wriiten stage description and current rule book, is up to them. Anything else is fluff.

side note: I hate stages where your every thought and movement, target engagement order, reloads, etc are writtten down for you to follow like a puppet on strings. Use your course design to force the action in the direction you want, with walls, ports, fault lines, etc. If some of the rats figures out a way to break out of your maze, build a better maze next time, don't just fix it with your pen.

Well said!

[CHA-LEE]

I also like having the freedom to tackle a stage in my own way. I have participated in matches before where every single step of the stage is dictated by the MD or RO. Those matches just become a “Who can follow orders the best” match and are not as fun. I have also seen the bruised ego course designers whip out the pen and make some limiting change to the course description on a stage because someone found a hole in their design. I can see that being applicable if the “Hole” in the stage allows an unsafe situation, like allowing targets to be engaged right on or beyond the 180. But other than that it should be left as is.

All that being said, I am going to continue to “Game” stages. That is what this sport is all about, creative shooting. You need to know your skill level and have confidence in your capabilities. Once you know that a lot more stage breakdown options become viable solutions.

[gino_aki]

I used to try to gamer-proof my stages until I realized that watching everybody shoot the stage the same way was BORING. Now I try to make them as freestyle as possible, even letting shooters stack shots on Virginia Count stages. I do frown on shooters trying to move the props and vision barriers around to get an advantage as our props are lightweight and it is a pain to have to lock them down. The only things I'm looking for in target and prop placement are shoot-throughs and 90/180 degree traps. Otherwise, shoot-'em when you can see-'em.

[caspian guy]

As someone who runs a club and designs stages. I say go ahead game it...

What I had in mind as the stage designer is not the shooters concern. The shooter's concern is to solve the problem the best way he can, while staying inside the rules and the written stage briefing.

If you see something I didn't, good for you. Sometimes I see something after I set up the stage I didn't see before and end up gaming myself.

Peter Adams

FY-39604

[shooterbenedetto]

Not all stage are created equal? Shot a stage last week and had to shoot targets from three

postitions. A GM walks in and says I found a hole to shoot the targets from the 1st postion

but long shots and the last 2 targets you could only shoot C and D's..and finish all targets to second position.

He shot it the short cut way and I(master class) shot it the way it is intended..found out it was faster the way it is by 2 seconds.

because you had blasting movements from one position to another. Also all targets were in good ANGLES fo good points!

WE HAD A LESSON LEARNED AT PRACTICE MATCH!!

Edited March 20, 2009 by shooterbenedetto

[TM262]

I say, "game it up!"

I have seen it go both ways. I have been witness to simple observations that could make for a significantly easer, faster run. Then on the other hand, I have seen some very good shooters completely trash a stage trying to shave off a second or less by not running the stage based on its obvious intent.

It all comes out in the wash. At the end of the day, shoot your own game. Learn from those who play better or nicer. And if you are one of the gifted, share what you know with others. …or not.

Stage design is part of the game. In our area, we have some great stage designers. If you don't pay attention, they will let you 'game' yourself right into a FTE and 2 Mikes.

[XRe]

The best stage designs offer up a mix of risk and reward - and are fair to all shooters involved, regardless of skill level. Requiring head shots at 35 yards is really sucky for the C and D class shooters (well, hey, it sucks for all of us, but...). But, offering the chance for the hotshots to take that kind of risk to shave a second or two, while giving the option to advance on the target, changes things up a bit.

As a course designer, nothing is more satisfying than leaving out a bunch of rope and seeing who hangs themselves...

As a shooter, now... I don't so much game things in the sense of looking for loopholes or ways to contravene the stage. I'm looking for what works smoothest and most efficiently. If doing that means I end up contravening the course designers intent, but I'm within the bounds of the rules and the WSB, so be it. If the course designer gets his panties in a wad over it, well... thems the breaks.

BTW - I think you'll find a Level I RO course will tighten up your course designs quite a bit, at least in terms of avoiding the obvious mistakes that always seem to really bug some course designers. They may not make you totally creative, but ... that comes with time

[JWBooth]

I personally think that gaming is what makes this sport fun. To walk up to a "gamable" stage and try to think of the most effect way of completing it is the most fun i have at a match. Not to mention the analysis of the plan after completion. Last time i checked the only person your shooting against is yoursefl.

But thats just me...

Hunter

[warpspeed]

In my mind "gaming" is seeing a loop hole in the course description as worded, and/or taking advantage of poor course design.

+1

[SA Friday]

BTW - I think you'll find a Level I RO course will tighten up your course designs quite a bit, at least in terms of avoiding the obvious mistakes that always seem to really bug some course designers. They may not make you totally creative, but ... that comes with time

Oh, I don't know. I didn't find the RO course helped me very much at course design. I had read and understoood the rules long before I took the RO course. What I found the best help was having experienced designers go over my courses and pointing out the problem areas to change. The second best help was running courses and seeing people 'game' them. I learned much more by just doing. I had assisted and designed courses for a Level II match before I took the RO course.

[Chris iliff]

Kudos CHA-LEE, game away baby! I love that stage story. Your confidence and practice in SHO paid off, wish I could have seen the faces of those other guys,...priceless! I bet not one of those people that whined went home and shot a single round SHO, sad for them! Great for you!

[Nik Habicht]

A few of the guys found out you could lean "hard" (ie push) against one of the screens and get to two of the poppers.

That is modifying the course of fire and it is cheating, not gaming.

Not necessarily --- I've been helped and hurt by walls moving in gusty winds at CJ.......

My approach is --- if you don't want the wall to move near a shooting position, you know where to locate the brace that supports the wall.....

[sslav]

A few of the guys found out you could lean "hard" (ie push) against one of the screens and get to two of the poppers.

That is modifying the course of fire and it is cheating, not gaming.

Not necessarily --- I've been helped and hurt by walls moving in gusty winds at CJ.......

My approach is --- if you don't want the wall to move near a shooting position, you know where to locate the brace that supports the wall.....

I do not know Nick. we are not exactly building permanent structures out there. It is one thing when a gust of wind shifts a wall or a target. It is a random event. But if it is alright to lean on walls to create an opening, then how about kicking over barrels or pushing a noshoot out of the way?