Seth Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 For those who shooting consistent A/M/GM level classifiers... Do you have to burn the barn down to get a classifier to count or are you shooting at your natural speed? I have been comfortably shooting B classifiers all winter (I'm currently classified C limited) and expect that I will make B after my next classifier. But I'm not TRYING to shooting faster than I can shoot. I'm just shooting. Is it the same at the highest levels? Can a GM level shooter naturally shoot at that speed or do you have to mash the gas and risk disaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 That is a good question! I've seen a lot of higher class shooters totally tank a stage one minute then burn the next one down. Where they just trying too hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 For those who shooting consistent A/M/GM level classifiers... Do you have to burn the barn down to get a classifier to count or are you shooting at your natural speed? I have been comfortably shooting B classifiers all winter (I'm currently classified C limited) and expect that I will make B after my next classifier. But I'm not TRYING to shooting faster than I can shoot. I'm just shooting. Is it the same at the highest levels? Can a GM level shooter naturally shoot at that speed or do you have to mash the gas and risk disaster? Hmmm....good question and I'm curious to see what others think. Personally, I'm at a point where I can usually mess up a classifier and have it still count. I had a mike on the classifier at our last match and it was still 73% It was particularly bad because it was the last shot so it's not like it was an early shot and then I could have geared down and just shot all A's so that at least it was positive training....ugh. Unfortunately I've been messing up classifiers pretty consistently for the last few months...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Deegan Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Seth, Keeping in mind that I am not one of those guys, I will offer the following as what I think will be said. The really good upper echelon shooters shoot as fast as they see and they call each shot just like you and I. They are just faster at it through training, focus, better eyes. Consistency is the other side, they don't make mistakes, because they are not "pushing for speed". Knowing what the gun is doing is really nice, but speed is relative to what you see. IMO we spend to much time trying to be fast, and forget that it is just about seeing what you need to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 My bad ones still count too, not high enough to have them not count for my overall classification. I just shoot it as a stage in the match, no different than any other short stage. The thing is, you can't win a match on a short course, but you can lose one. I shoot good points as fast as I can safely, knowingly conceding a few match points to the guy that manages to win on a hero-or-zero run, knowing I will get them back on a medium course or a field course. Doing this my classification very closely matches my match performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcattack Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I agree with the other post. When I first made A I thought I had to pick up the speed and just fly to keep up and found out it actually made me slower. Do not try to shoot faster than you would shoot the rest of the match I have seen a lot of shooters shoot classifiers to move up but they were not able to compete in the upper class and get frustrated and quit. Shoot your level the speed will come later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I'm not a solid A shooter yet but I'm a A classed shooter. Anyway, for me at my current level to get a master classifier score for the most part I have to go balls to the wall. You know what that means, I'm not a master class shooter yet. The classifiers that I shot to get me to A in Limited and Single Stack where shot like the rest of the match, like another stage of that match. Sure push yourself a little, if you don't you'll never know what your capable of but don't hose down the classifier just to try to reach a mark....keep at it and it will come when your ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I've had to opportunity to watch GM's like Brad Balsey and Dave Sevigney shoot classifiers. They shoot 100's with no wreckless abandon. They are just that damn good. If you look up their USPSA numbers they rarely shoot a classifier that's not GM level. I'm like Steel, ,to shoot a M level classifier I have to go nuts out. Since this rarely produces a decent score, I'm now shooting them like regular stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the feedback. I was squaded with TJ this weekend and he shot 03-12 at about 7 seconds. I did it in 12. His run looked effortless but I never had a chance to ask him about how he shot classifiers... I was too busy watching him disect the next stage! Unreal economy of motion.... As an aside, he is just BOORRRRINNNNGGGG to watch run a stage. His LAMR is more interesting than watching the man shoot. And that is absolutely the highest compliment. He just makes it look like ballet. Edited February 9, 2009 by Seth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I'm currently A in Ltd, L10 and SS. I was always hit and miss with classifiers. I was trying to burn them down. Basically, that equates to shooting beyond my ability. Very high crash factor. I started shooting the classifiers to "not loose the match" a little while ago. Just another stage. I just shot my second 86% in a row and an 81% before that. I know everyone tells you to "just shoot it", but we all want to classify well so there is extra stress. I really stopped caring about it as much and my classifiers shot way up. I will make Master when I can shoot at Master level without "trying". Of course the road is longer when you don't live fire practice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Can a GM level shooter naturally shoot at that speed or do you have to mash the gas and risk disaster? Really...you know the answer, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Kyle, I'd love to tell you I do.... but I'd really like to know if a GM just CAN or if they have to TRY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 "Try" sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 I realize that too... but I am working hard to improve and have learned to relax on the classifiers and shoot them naturally. Naturally I shoot Bs right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I realize that too... but I am working hard to improve and have learned to relax on the classifiers and shoot them naturally. Naturally I shoot Bs right now. Seth, You have to be able to do it on demand. Know what you can and execute. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I realize that too... but I am working hard to improve and have learned to relax on the classifiers and shoot them naturally. Naturally I shoot Bs right now. Cool. That is where you are at now. I know that when I made B...then when I made A...and Master... My thinking was that I was doing all I could do. So, how would I be able to move on up??? I am guessing that is where you are? You are wondering what to do to improve? If so, then that is the real question, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 If it's just another day at work and you GMs can do that naturally without any heroic efforts, I got a LONG way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 I realize that too... but I am working hard to improve and have learned to relax on the classifiers and shoot them naturally. Naturally I shoot Bs right now. Cool. That is where you are at now. I know that when I made B...then when I made A...and Master... My thinking was that I was doing all I could do. So, how would I be able to move on up??? I am guessing that is where you are? You are wondering what to do to improve? If so, then that is the real question, right? Ultimately, yes. But I'm right in the middle of turning a corner. I've gone from being awful to functional to average. I'm dryfiring a lot, I'm trying to get live fire practice in regularly and I'm reading. Truly I'm a student of practical shooting right now.... But I am also watching others strive for the next level and some times its pretty ugly. I guess that's what precipitated the question is watching others work on taking it up another notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Here's a related question/observation: My scores on older classifiers are solidly within my class, but some of the newer ones I score much higher (I actually did a grand master score the other day). Is it that the "limits of human function" have been reached on the older classifiers? I mean, something like El Prez, I can imagine that the scores there are the best of the best over years, and may also represent some freakishly good runs out of the best GM's, but something more recent hasn't been shot as much and may not have the currently maximum performance run recorded? Anybody else notice the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I would like to make a response, I don't think of my self as Upper Echelon, I am only a M class shooter. AKA the Over-thinker Underachiever Some stages suit my experience and some hit my week points. So I practice things that found the weakness. I think plenty of the classifiers have some good skills requirements that should be masted. But yes I used to - Try or push on the classifiers causing choke out. So I kept up the same thing until choking didn't make me puke. A bad run is not so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Mike Seeklander offerred some advice on a related topic. He calls it controlled chaos. The reason Dave et. al. look smooth and consistent is that when they train they go into a controlled chaos mode. They push their limits in training and dial it back a bit when in a match. TGO offers that he tries to treat every match like it is a major, he shoots it to win. Dave is the same way. So when you look at them being smooth and not looking rushed it is because they are not rushing, they probably did some rushing/pushing their limits in practice. By the time they are in a match they are mentally pushing hard but are not pushing too hard as to make mistakes. Ask yourselves some questions: how many of you actually really push the speed envelope in practice? Can you drive yourself to go faster without someone telling you to go faster? Matt Burkett used to take a stick to one of his students to get him to shoot faster. There might be a podcast with Matt and Taran talking about going faster. I think I made B while in WA. I was not trying to push any faster, I was just trying to shoot at a comfortable pace. I was probably more relaxed knowing that I did not care anymore about trying to make B. But in training sessions I was pushing the speed during part of the practice and accuracy in the other part. I truly try not to believe in the hero to zero philosophy of shooting classifiers. Shoot them at your pace. Increase your pace in practice and it will increase in a match. A match/classifier is really not the place to add extra pressure. The above is just one person's opinion. It does not apply to all but it works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Some of the classifiers are really tough to shoot a good score, and some are relatively easy. Don't sweat it, do what you do and that is it. Shoot what you brought to the match today and that is all. There are a lot of guys that are classified higher than they can shoot, a couple 'hero or zero' runs that work can do that easily (paper _'s). There are also a lot of guys that are shooting steady and consistent, putting in the hard work and getting better, that haven't had the classifiers catch up to them yet (commonly called sandbaggers but we know who really is and who isn't in our neck of the woods). That doesn't matter, look inward and just shoot your game as it is on match day, if you do it will work out and you will end up with an accurate classification. Use the whole match to determine where you need work the most. A lot of the classifiers are just simple speed shoots that don't necessarily reflect where you should spend your time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think if the classifier system only counted the top 6 out of your last 8, but did not drop out any scores other than the 2 low, then it would put put a great emphasis on consistency. As it now, it rewards hero or zero. I'm just finishing my hero-zero phase. It doesn't work, you are betting on luck to get you the high %. Luck comes and goes, skill is always there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The ink isn't even dry yet on my M card, so I don't consider my classifiers "upper eschelon" but I will say that if one were to look at my scores, all of the best scores were scores I just shot at my pace and ended up suprised at the results. All of the worst scores are ones I tried on. I've never had a hero/zero run make me look like a hero. There's a lesson in that information. I'm still trying to learn it, too. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) This is a great thread. I'm a C shooter, but have a good amount of tanked classifiers, and my match results suggest maybe I could be classed higher but when the time comes to shoot a classifier I stiffen up and blow it. I shall contemplate this thread before my next match. Today's Maku Mozo is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. When you're betting for stones in an archery contest, you shoot with skill. When you're betting for fancy belt buckles, you worry about your aim. And when you're betting for real gold, you're a nervous wreck. Your skill is the same in all three cases - but because one prize means more to you than another, you let outside concerns weigh on your mind. He who looks too hard at the outside gets clumsy on the inside. -Chuang Tzu Edited February 10, 2009 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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