Jim Norman Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 A simple solution to capacity. ALLOW, please read as ALLOW, not REQUIRE the Stage description to REQUIRE a MANDATORY reload AFTER the first shot and prior to engaging the last target. This is still entirely freestyle, you get to decide when and where to reload and there are precious few designs that have so little room to move that this is a real problem. Doing this eliminates the equipment race and reinforces skill. OK, I have my Nomex skivvies on, and am pulling on the flame suit. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 If that's the argument, why have mag restrictions for handguns and shotguns? 30 round, or a size limit, in tactical, free for all in open. Just so we can have a token separation between the Tact Class and Open Class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 No Restriction.....period.. we have enough rules already. I do not own a betac mag or a magcinch device. I have shot a few matches and have never lost to someone because they had either. Any concerns a MD has regarding capacity can and should be handled with course design, same goes for the use of magcinches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted November 21, 2008 Author Share Posted November 21, 2008 kdmoore, I am going to be at NCRR for the match. I just wish I had a Beta-mag for my shotgun!!! -- would probably need a wheelbarrow to carry it around, but .... Thanks to eveyone for their input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Don't really care about this one. However, IF we are going to have multiple equipment divisions, there should be real distinctions between those divisions. Otherwise why have have them? One way of doing that is to have ammo capacity limits. I would note that it is fairly rare to have a stage that cannot be won with 30 rounders. Occasionally you see one (often at SMMM3G for some reason) but not that often. They are out there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I do care about this! Maybe a "tactical" rifle and an "open" Rifle are very similar, but BOTH the other guns ARE NOT! that is the distinction in divisions. The US hardly does RIFLE only matches so why should we care about how close Tactical is to open for ONE gun??? Next it always seems that people want a "limit" on limited which is already behind the curve with NO SCOPE!! which is more strict than "Tactical" Many times I have seen 20 rounds for LTD, 30 for Tactical, and anything for open. WHY are we going to force people to reload more when the rifle they have is already pretty darn hard to shoot already. As for Tactical, Match Directors better be prepared to allot more time for the rifle stages, as now not only are we limited in capacity, we now have to dig around in the dirt for the dropped mags before we clear the stage. I have also witnessed many folk that can't make the overall stage time limit ( for "outlaw") the way it is now with big mags, why are we going to further frustrate these shooters with eating up some of that time with changing magazines? Third, If we force a 30 round limit we might as well say AR type rifles ONLY, unless we want an R.O. standing around counting rounds because someone wants to shoot their H&K93 with the FACTORY 45 round magazines. 45 round magazines as of right now are fairly cheap as are 40 rounders so we can hardly say it is an "equipment race" when a good 45 round mag cost less than a mid range brake! The ban has been gone for WAY TOO LONG to say well the reason I got beat is because he had a 45 round magazine and I didn't. Remember the 30 round mag was designed because the Military DIDN'T THINK 20 was enough, and I know several programs the military is looking at call for 50 -80 magazines. Leave it alone and just shoot! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 We all need to keep in mind one thing... THIS IS A GAME! We have rules and we have divisions. If this were real, a goodly number of us would not 'play' And if this were for real, I would speculate that fragmentation grenades would be a big part of the equipment we use. I would also suggest that more ammo capacity is better, But enter through a door? not when I can blow a hole through a wall or just knock the building down, stay inside the lines? not likely, I would be playing to WIN as in stay alive and get back home. But this is a game and we do have rules and we do have divisions and generally the divisions compete within their own little worlds. So why is everyone upset about making the divisions different? Then again, Maybe I just got up on the wrong side of the bed today. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I'm not opposed to a 30 round mag limit in Limited & Tactical, but Kurt's point about factory mags is a fair one. I suppose the best way to support my argument is that ammo (in one way or another) is restricted in the other 2 guns to help deliniate divisions, so why wouldn't we do the same for rifle? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) the divisions are already different, the difference is that some people want more difference, if Tactical and Limited are soooooo similar then how come more people do not compete in Limited?????????????? Because its harder, its different. If Tactical and Open are so similar then why does Open have so few competitors??????? Because its more expensive, its different. Rumor has it apes and man have just one chromosome or something separating them, do you think you're the same as an ape???????? Or different??????? Trapr Edited November 21, 2008 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I do care about this! Maybe a "tactical" rifle and an "open" Rifle are very similar, but BOTH the other guns ARE NOT! that is the distinction in divisions. The US hardly does RIFLE only matches so why should we care about how close Tactical is to open for ONE gun???Next it always seems that people want a "limit" on limited which is already behind the curve with NO SCOPE!! which is more strict than "Tactical" Many times I have seen 20 rounds for LTD, 30 for Tactical, and anything for open. WHY are we going to force people to reload more when the rifle they have is already pretty darn hard to shoot already. As for Tactical, Match Directors better be prepared to allot more time for the rifle stages, as now not only are we limited in capacity, we now have to dig around in the dirt for the dropped mags before we clear the stage. I have also witnessed many folk that can't make the overall stage time limit ( for "outlaw") the way it is now with big mags, why are we going to further frustrate these shooters with eating up some of that time with changing magazines? Third, If we force a 30 round limit we might as well say AR type rifles ONLY, unless we want an R.O. standing around counting rounds because someone wants to shoot their H&K93 with the FACTORY 45 round magazines. 45 round magazines as of right now are fairly cheap as are 40 rounders so we can hardly say it is an "equipment race" when a good 45 round mag cost less than a mid range brake! The ban has been gone for WAY TOO LONG to say well the reason I got beat is because he had a 45 round magazine and I didn't. Remember the 30 round mag was designed because the Military DIDN'T THINK 20 was enough, and I know several programs the military is looking at call for 50 -80 magazines. Leave it alone and just shoot! KURTM I'm with you Kurt!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Just leave things as they are now. I'm tired of seeing more rules that don't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I also vote NO ! Please, please, please leave things as they are. As long as it's the same for everyone, whats the problem ? If someone wants the schlep a 100 round mag around a 35 round stage, I say "go nuts". I've seen maybe a handful of stages over the last 8 years where a Beta mag would have been a measurable advantage (the rollercoaster at SMM3G07 springs to mind). Kurt is right - the .MIL is always looking to get more rounds in a magazine, and for good reason. To say that this is somehow not "tactical" is just silly. Oh, and if people think using a $250 Beta Mag is unfairly buying your way up the score sheet, then maybe we can just impose a budget restriction ? Yeah, thats it, make a rule that the gun, accessories and ammo for the whole match must not have cost more than, say, $1000. Hmmm, yes, that would be fair. Better still, at the start of the match we could have everybody puts their guns in a pile, and then hold a raffle to decide who gets to shoot which gun in the match. As our Dear Leader said, "We Have To Spread The Wealth™". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I would be very hesitant bringing what the military does or doesn't do into this discussion. What the military does and playing a sport are two entirely different animals. I've been in country for over 4 months now and have yet to see a single set of mag's cinched together by anyone doing missions outside the base parameter, not SOF nor anyone from any of the 4 branches on my base. I'm sure some knuckle head here has cinched mags, but nobody who might have to actually do a combat mission from this base. I haven't seen a beta mag here either. Once again, I'm sure someone has one, but it's not seeing any action. Lastly, if you really want to bring the military logic into this discussion, you could always mandate EXACTLY where you will place every pouch on every one of your belts and EXACTLY where every 'approved' accessory will go on every gun. Fortunately, I'm in a unit that doesn't do that, but damn if that logic isn't popular in the military. On another note, since when has a mag change with an AR become such an unpopular shooting skill? If I figure out how to belt-feed an AR will I be allowed to shoot it with a 200 round pack in tactical or limited? How about a modified camera gyro stabilizer so my gun doesn't shake as much when I'm aiming at my target? Sooner or later, you actually have to HAVE skill sets within the the competition to weigh and measure or it's not a competition. Underneath all of this discussion, I see that as being the true factor. Is being able to complete a fricken mag change part of the skill sets that you want weight and measured within the competition? If so, then in what divisions and to what extent? I doubt having to pick up a mag or two after shooter completes a course of fire is going to slow a match down, but I bet all those shooters who rely on cinched mags to do a reload because they never practice going to a mag pouch would get wieghed and measured... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hey S.A. Friday, first of all thanks for being over there, I never got that in the early 70,s, but HEY THANK YOU!!Second of all WHY wouldnt you want more rounds in your magazines?? I am quite adept at changing them, We only had 20 rounders when I was "over there", and I got quite good at it, but 30 or 40 or 45 would have been great! If the technology is there WHY wouldn't we avail ourselves of it? If we really wanted to WEIGH rifle skill I would say FIRST round hit, SCREW mag changes, but as you are well aware, sometimes that doesn't work out so well so we NEED BIG magazines! KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hey S.A. Friday, first of all thanks for being over there, I never got that in the early 70,s, but HEY THANK YOU!!Second of all WHY wouldnt you want more rounds in your magazines?? I am quite adept at changing them, We only had 20 rounders when I was "over there", and I got quite good at it, but 30 or 40 or 45 would have been great! If the technology is there WHY wouldn't we avail ourselves of it? If we really wanted to WEIGH rifle skill I would say FIRST round hit, SCREW mag changes, but as you are well aware, sometimes that doesn't work out so well so we NEED BIG magazines! KurtM Over here, reliability for the most part. P-mags are becoming very popular in the military for just this reason. The beta's can be way too touchy based on the envoirnment we are working in. Same thing with cinched mags. The advantages of cinching mags becomes problematic with the dirt and sand everywhere. By the time you go to change to the second mag, it's potentially a jam-o-matic. Safer to just leave it in a pouch upside down not collecting the local enviornment. Lastly, manuverability. Getting into and out of MRAPS and HMV's with an M16-A2 can be problematic at best, sticking a P-mag/Nordic 47 round extended mag in it and you have a serious hinderance. There are times one has to bail out of the vehicle at all costs, preferrably with their gun and in full body armor. Just too damned cumbersome. They come up with a no-crap run anytime beta mag, I'll be the first to have one over here. As for shooting the newer technology in competition, its like I said, I think it really comes down to a question of what aspects of shooting you want to be measured during the COF. There are ways to influence this through WSB's, but the way I see it what is being discussed here is do 3-gunners/multi-gunners want magazine changes as a core skill task that is measured in certain divisions. Obviously, open is outside this debate. I think everyone agrees with that, but adding this as a core skill to limited or tactical may be desirable. It potentially brings a unique aspect to a division distinguishing it as a separate entity. It give it a different flavor. This debate is the same one that comes up with USPSA production and IPSC production divisions. To allow full mags or 10 round mags. (Please don't take this comment to a USPSA vs IPSC comment and turn this into another debate over something not related to the topic and not allowed on BE.) I would put forward that most USPSA production shooters prefer the 10 round mag limitation not because it's LIMITING but because it changes the flavor of the division. It's still ice cream, just a different Ben-n-Jerry's flavor. The technologies are still being taken advantage of in Open, and I would foresee other ideas in the future that could be taken advantage of too. Ultimately though, it boils down to the basic question of 'are mag changes a skill that you want to measure in the rifle shooting and in which division(s) would it suit.' Once that has been decided, then the other stuff can be hashed out; 20 round mags in lim, 30 in tactical, whatever you want in open, or 30's and cinched mags in tactical and limited, or whatever... but at the very least if you have a clear path to what is valued, the rest is superficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Two things here, Ben-n-Jerry's is vehemently Anti-gun so we should pick a different company to use to compare ice cream and guns, and second of all when Ben-n-Jerry's announced "Breast Milk" ice cream "boob-berry" I don't really consider it "ice cream" any longer, or if it is it is a "flavor" I wouldn't want any longer, kind of like mag restrictions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Two things here, Ben-n-Jerry's is vehemently Anti-gun so we should pick a different company to use to compare ice cream and guns, and second of all when Ben-n-Jerry's announced "Breast Milk" ice cream "boob-berry" I don't really consider it "ice cream" any longer, or if it is it is a "flavor" I wouldn't want any longer, kind of like mag restrictions Yeah, we can leave BJ's out of this. "Boob-berry" ice cream?! That's sick even for uber liberals like BJ's. There needs to be no rifle magazine restrictions in our game. But, if we want to test reloading skill, then why not Open too? There are reasons for the capacity restrictions for tac/limited pistol and sg, btw. Do we really need to get into them? It has to do with the practical roots of what we do. There are skills and equipment in the "real" world that adapt to our sport. And, there are skills and equipment developed in our sport that have found their way into the practical/tactical world. Being over-zealous with rules and restrictions tends to dampen the development of new tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 (edited) More rules + less fun + less shooters = death of the sport. That... and everyone says there should be less rules, no restrictions... which I don't understand. Then why have divisions? Why not just make everything Open? The rules/restrictions are what make it fun, make it a challenge. Besides, a year from now we may all be running around with 5 round magazines. Edited November 23, 2008 by cas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Being over-zealous with rules and restrictions tends to dampen the development of new tools. Put everything in a shoebox and very quickly everything looks like...the same old sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccur Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 To me the real difference between open and Tactical is the allowing of 1 more optic...that is awesome for 100yds and in whereas I have to use a side sight or???...as to resting on a mag, that was something I did at SOF a million years ago, and they were the originators of 3-Gun AND tactical!! I also remember using an empty slug box and putting it between 2 30 rd mags and duct taping them together for a better way to reload (a mag cinch?)..As SOF was THE Tactical Match, and it was allowed there, where are we going? Just my $.02 Cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 To me the real difference between open and Tactical is the allowing of 1 more optic...that is awesome for 100yds and in whereas I have to use a side sight or???...as to resting on a mag, that was something I did at SOF a million years ago, and they were the originators of 3-Gun AND tactical!! I also remember using an empty slug box and putting it between 2 30 rd mags and duct taping them together for a better way to reload (a mag cinch?)..As SOF was THE Tactical Match, and it was allowed there, where are we going?Just my $.02 Cheryl Aw c'mon. I'm SURE you're not over a million years old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 So then given that SOF is the original (and I whole heartedly agree)...were you allowed Beta and other > 30 round AR mags? I know that certain basepads were not welcome. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccur Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 oh crap...I just gave away my real age.... cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccur Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 So then given that SOF is the original (and I whole heartedly agree)...were you allowed Beta and other > 30 round AR mags? I know that certain basepads were not welcome. Rich We didn't have Beta mags then....I did however use my Sterling 40rd magazine there....Something they did do was limit how much you could load..ie: no matter how big your mag was, you could only have 6 rds loaded for the start Cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Interesting. Can't wait to see y'all at Benning! rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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