jobob Posted November 21, 2008 Author Share Posted November 21, 2008 I don't think Lawman has said he's never shot your match. He's just said he won't go this year because of your new anal rule. I, otoh, have said that I've never shot it, though I've wanted to. Your match has had a great reputation. You're entirely right about why I don't like your new, ahem, "clarification" (it IS a new rule, your semantics not withstanding), as I stated in one of my posts, which apparently you haven't read. I don't like it precisely because your silly, unneeded, heavy-handed, subjective rule may spread like a virus to other matches. But, I think that the objections to it that have been raised here, as well as the fact that comments seem to be running about 95% against the rule change, leads me to think that this thread is acting as a vaccination against it, and may have nipped it in the bud before an epidemic occurs. But what do I know, I thought McCain would win! Good luck with your match, Benelli chick. I hope over-zealous rule making, excuse me, "clarifications", doesn't drive away too many shooters. Over the next few years the shooting community needs to be as strong and united as possible. Anything which divides us will be counter productive, so I wish you well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Denise, cinched mags used as a monopod, dualpod, whatever, their match legallity is are not the end of the world. Now I really must say this , if this is an exsisting rule at RM3G then mabey the 2008 R.O. Staff should have been informed. Stage 3, my squad, the squad before me, and I think the squad after me.... So you see where this is ............. incovinient news to us !! Edited November 21, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Denise and JJ. In the second post I explained why I use cinched mags. It is because I use cinched mags in my HK MP-5 entry gun, and my duty AR-15 in the squad. I have trained with them for years. I am not in favor of this rule even though it may not be a new one. I would like to just shoot as normal but I will admit that I feel the cinched mags offer me more confidence when shooting from prone at targets 600 yrds away. I never get to practice at that range until a shoot like yours comes along. I have been to the last three RM3G shoots and it is on my short list of "must attend" matches. Even with this rule in effect, I will still attend. The rest of the match you guys put on makes it well worth the while. Please don't send me cheese and crackers as I do not like whine (wine). Cheese curds and beer - now we are talkin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Wow! I've got some shopping to do! Curds? Yuck! I get the beer, but curds? Anyway, I understand your concerns, and to be honest, JJ and I went around about this a lot. IT was not a big issue for me, but with some of the posts, it's become one! We looked into limiting mag capacity (as in Kurt's post) to 10", that's a 40 plus a wee bit, because I didn't want to count rounds either. But, after some input, JJ changed his mind. It's just that your other guns are limited for ammo, why not your rifle. But, that is for discussion on Andy's thread! In 2008, i.e. bipods was not clarified, and so other than bipods, we didn't have much to stand on to limit things. Yes the block of wood was a problem previous years, and the VFW with the little bipod that comes out was clearly a no-go, but the VFW, and some other things weren't clear. I don't like to make "clarifications" at the match. "Sorry, Tim, that magazine with the rubber basepad 5" by 5" is an external supporting device." "No it isn't, it's my magazine and it's an integral part of the rifle!" Maybe we were looking ahead, maybe we were making a bipod out of two magazines! I do love all the passion you show for 3-Gun! You should still come out because as I said, lots of sandbags and awkward shooting positions that make the cinched mag point moot because you can't get it on the ground, and there's not enough room on the sandbag to rest the mags and the handguard, and maybe we're helping you out to much, but you should rest the handguard on it. It's more stable! It's still a hoot! Take care, and I'll start making my shopping list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I beg to disagree again. I realize you haven't come to RM3G, but for the last two years, using cinched mags was only a possible advantage less than once in each match. We had sandbags, wooden rests, rocks etc for the other long range shooting positions. Things that you could rest your handguard on, which is much more stable than a cinched mag.In 2007, cinched mags could have been used to rest on the ground in one position on stage 1 and the targets were only about 150 yards away. All the other positions, had wood or sandbag rests. In the bunkers, you could have even used your even cinched mags all day, as you rested your handguard on the sandbag, and were basically kneeling, so your magazines couldn't even touch the ground. In 2008, there was no position without wooden rests, rocks or sandbags. You could have rested your handguard on something on every position. So, the clarification hasn't changed the way our shooters will play the game at all! It would seem by your own admission that clearly there was no need for a clarification. Stage design, its all about stage design. I have no dog in this hunt other than I hate to see any rules/clarification that cause such a stir needlesly in this sport. I do not use a magcinch or a forgrip and never intentionaly use a mag as a monopod, but I feel that anyone that wishes to, if the stage design favors it, can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I thought we hashed out the Outlaw vs. Standardized rule thing already. It seemed to me that most people who favored the outlaw matches favored the 'let the match director make the rules' approach. I've seen less bitchin' among 7th grade girls. It's not as if this rule is being sprung on us as we are registering for the match. It the better part of a year away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I guess I'm a whiner now. So be it. Denise, I have shot the RM3G. I do know both you and JJ. I shot it in 2006 and helped you lay out the prize table after the match. After 2006 RM3G was on my short list of matches that I always wanted to go to. Unfortunately I haven't been able to make it the last two years because of the date conflict with USPSA Nationals. And before you somehow take offense at that, yes I know your dates were on the calender long before Nationals. With the change in the dates this year I was really hoping and had plans to attend. After an earlier PM thread with JJ a month or two ago I had planned to pass on this match. After the personal attacks by you and JJ it's a definite thing. I'm not an old timer, I've only been shooting MG for about 8 years. I've only taught around 1000 students. I guess that doesn't qualify me in your eyes to say that using the magazine as a rest is a valid technique. Things change. 50 years ago rifle technique was different. Monopodding is a technique that is taught to students both LE and military. But I guess that doesn't matter. BTW, while you may have designed courses to take monopodding out of the equation for the last two years I used the technique on three separate stages at the 2006 RM3G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Should there be a rule outlawing the mag resting on the ground? IMHO No. Is it a good idea/practice to do this? For some...not a big deal....for others a very big deal..... for me...no I would have to say its not a good idea. Among other reasons.....All kinds of ghak (technical term) can work its way into stuff where we specifically don't want the ghak to be. BUT the option should be left open for the shooter him/herself to decide. Let those that like it do it and those that don't can do something else. Just my .02 JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Magcinched mags are a slight advantage for monopoding over a single mag. You have twice the surface area to rest the rifle on. You have to be careful that the mags are aligned or the rifle is off balance - I often remove the dustcover to enable this. You also get a quick reload if need be. I used this technique on at least 2 stages of this years RM3G. Rifles with Bipods are slightly more stable than monopoded rifles but monpoded rifles are easier to transverse. Like most of the rest of us, I am against any rule that prohibits this monopod technique in any division. I understand the concern about artificial extenders on magazines to increase the surface area, however, such accessories are not going to make any difference. I have no problem with allowing them. If you have such a rule at RM3G, I think it is silly but I will still go. Every 3 gun match, it seems, has to have one silly equipment rule. A funny observation, the monopoding technique crept for cometition shooting to the tactical world. Now apparently it is creeping back, now that it is "tactical." Finally every top level shooter that I can think of, except one - the always different Eric Lund, monopods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) 99% with KellyN3 here, but I do think its RM3G's choice about using 2 mags to mono pod off - it seems there is a few angry people that dont agree but the vast majority will either not care or adapt - that in my opnion is an OK thing about non USPSA 3 Gun in the fact you can change things to the different styles and thats what makes each match unique with its own flavour. RM3G tries to encourage old style marksmanship principles with lots of long challanging rifle stages and wants to promote a slight change in that they want to allow people to use the mono pod technique but not take the PISS out off it. No harm in that, but the cinch mag guys just need to learn how to shoot prone and load without two mags on the ground. Reminds me of that Tombestone line "No ones saying you cant mag cinch, no ones even saying you cant mono pod.... you just cant mag cinch and mono pod in Town.... OK ??" This is kinda like kimbilyM's line tempest in a tea pot! KurtM but seeing as you good ol boys got rid of us tea drinkers and now drink coffee it should read "a cyclone in a coffee pot" ! Edited November 21, 2008 by mike.45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 GEEZE Kelly you are really "DISIN" Ed Rhodes! He would NEVER mono-pod. Hey Mike how about an Esker in and Urn?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I can go into the old SOF rules, and original IMGA rules which were much more restrictive, but I'm getting bored! Denise, SOF rules finally allowed bypods, but had to be left on the rifle for the entire match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 After having my Butt handed to me by the monopoders. I have changed my ways and become one of them. It works and it is a good idea, for true Tactical purposes for any of you that have any Fox hole time, you know what I mean. I even have an extension on my mag that I made. The practice works for me with my body size. It is the same width as the magazine. I am shooting the RM3G and plan on having a great time. I probably will not beat Kurtm, or TonyH of JerryM I’m only human. But I will do my best to try and beat you! But I will have a good time. I don’t care what division it puts me in. I’ll deal with it and run what I brung. Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbullgpd Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 WOW my head is spinning. Can anyone clarify, after 3 pages I can't remember what is and isn't allowed. For tactical division at RM3G, you can not cinch mags. Only one mag in gun and you can pod off of it? Or can you run cinched mags but just not let them touch the ground? Or is it only one mag and still cant let it touch the ground...................... Sorry mind lost in the melee. And yes I think it is much to do about nothing, if it wasn't broke then don't fix it.............but if ya don't like it don't go.......I was in the same squad with Lawman in 06 and we had a great time and I remember podding off my mags several times to steady my iron sighted rifle. I also teach LEO's the same technique. I would love to go back again, now if I can just figure out what the rule is then I can move on in life, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 (edited) WOW my head is spinning. Can anyone clarify, after 3 pages I can't remember what is and isn't allowed. For tactical division at RM3G, you can not cinch mags. Only one mag in gun and you can pod off of it? Or can you run cinched mags but just not let them touch the ground? Or is it only one mag and still cant let it touch the ground...................... Sorry mind lost in the melee. And yes I think it is much to do about nothing, if it wasn't broke then don't fix it.............but if ya don't like it don't go.......I was in the same squad with Lawman in 06 and we had a great time and I remember podding off my mags several times to steady my iron sighted rifle. I also teach LEO's the same technique. I would love to go back again, now if I can just figure out what the rule is then I can move on in life, You can cinch, but not touch the ground(use as support) You can monopod off one mag, no problem. Integral part of the gun and all that! The title of this thread is resting rifle on mag, and I guess I got my back up because our rules never said you couldn't. We just said you couldn't use more than the mag that's in the gun for external support! Hope that clears things up! I monopod off my 40 a lot! Got no problem with monopodding at all. But two mags (bi-podding)! Also, big, honking mag pads that make the one mag into a suction cup/mount (both have been done) are not okay! Take care! Denise check out www.rm3g.com for the complete rules! Edited November 22, 2008 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Can you monopod with a staggered cinch? Only one mag would still touch the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 (edited) You can cinch, but not touch the ground(use as support)... You can monopod off one mag, no problem.... I monopod off my 40 a lot! Got no problem with monopodding at all. But two mags (bi-podding)! OK, so how about the arrangement shown below ? Only one mag touching the ground, same footprint as a single mag - none of the supposed stability advantage of the "two-mag bipod". The whole contraption is still shorter than a 40-rounder (shown also, for comparison). Of course, I'm being slightly facetious, but you see where I'm going with this. To paraphrase: "Make silly rules - Get silly compliance". Edited November 22, 2008 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Of course, I'm being slightly facetious, but you see where I'm going with this. To paraphrase: "Make silly rules - Get silly compliance". Brilliant !!! Will you be selling those at the match ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Will you be selling those at the match ?? No, I'll let anyone copy it for free... "Spread The Wealth" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Wow I can't think of anyone I would like to P.O. less than Chuck (Lawman). He is the salt of the earth type of guy, and always the first one to help out. I can't beleive you ment to diminish his help to you and many other matches. I love to Joust with Chuck on the forums, as he does me...but he is one of the best we have and to insult him like you have is...welll just not right! It is easy to get bent out of shape when it is "your baby" but come on! I have never known Chuck to "whine" or cause ANY problem....except when he and I disagree!! Kurt Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 I still fail to see how resting on double cinched mags (haven't found any ghak yet) is somehow cheating and must be regulated (dang liberals, anyway!). If a certain piece of equipment is allowed, then it must be allowed to help solve the shooting problem. Saying "yeah, you can have it, but can't use it" is just wrong! Oh well. I likely won't be at RM3G. Mostly due to financial, family and time reasons, not because of boycotting or anything. But if by chance I do make it down there, stop by and say hi. I'll be the one monopoding on the 45 round mag, looking for ghak! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Wow I can't think of anyone I would like to P.O. less than Chuck (Lawman). He is the salt of the earth type of guy, and always the first one to help out. I can't beleive you ment to diminish his help to you and many other matches. I love to Joust with Chuck on the forums, as he does me...but he is one of the best we have and to insult him like you have is...welll just not right! It is easy to get bent out of shape when it is "your baby" but come on! I have never known Chuck to "whine" or cause ANY problem....except when he and I disagree!! Kurt Miller +1 on that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 While we do things to polarize and divide ourself into splinter groups with our actions, rules and statements, one and all..... The United Enemy plots our total destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Wow I can't think of anyone I would like to P.O. less than Chuck (Lawman). He is the salt of the earth type of guy, and always the first one to help out. I can't beleive you ment to diminish his help to you and many other matches. I love to Joust with Chuck on the forums, as he does me...but he is one of the best we have and to insult him like you have is...welll just not right! It is easy to get bent out of shape when it is "your baby" but come on! I have never known Chuck to "whine" or cause ANY problem....except when he and I disagree!! Kurt Miller Damn, I think I'm gonna cry. BTW, if anyone thought that I didn't think the RM3G was an awesome match I apologize. I never meant to give that impression. I had an absolute blast at the RM3G in 2006. I have not shot any other match with as much natural terrain stages and such a high coolness factor. The Whittington Center is something that everyone should get to. It's just awesome. The year I shot there was a gully run up a creek. In the middle of the stage some shooters had a deer come running through chased by a big old kitty. Where else can you find that. But as much as I like that match, I'm still not going becuase of the rule change. That is the only reason I'm not going. I only post that to highlight how strongly I feel about it. Not to disparage RM3G in anyway. Signed, Chuck Anderson (in case anyone didn't know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Death Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 This is a crazzy thread, but who cares about it ,just don't make a mountain out of a mole hill, if it's that big of a deal just make it to where everybody shoot off hand unsupported only all the time, and that's just as crazzy too. My .02 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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