USPSA scoring of multigun

[Jack T]

Adjust time plus to reward accuracy: two a's clean, A/C or A/D clean, two C's +1 sec, 2D's +1sec, C/D +1 sec. You get the two anywhere to neutralize, but with a bonus for accuracy/ penalty for crappy hozing.

I will probably go to six (6) points or better to neutralize for 3-Gun. A C/D won't cut it without incuring a 5 second penalty. Easy to call the hits and not confuse the scorekeeper and I can still use my US Steel Scorer Program, love the program!!

See ya Saturday.

Jack

[mlmiller1]

I am enjoying this conversation. Everyone is being civil & saying why they like what they like. I am learning from this. I've seen a few discussions along these lines & they usually deteriorate to "your way is bad, mine is good" which means I stop reading the posts. Thanks everyone for being civil & especially thanks to you guys that have scored & run big matches, Linda & Denise. Great discussion.

I'm not ready to change how we score matches but at least now I see why many of you don't do it with uspsa scoring. Yes, we do the San Angelo method of adjusting for minor/major scoring.

MLM

[Jack T]

I am enjoying this conversation. Everyone is being civil & saying why they like what they like. I am learning from this. I've seen a few discussions along these lines & they usually deteriorate to "your way is bad, mine is good" which means I stop reading the posts. Thanks everyone for being civil & especially thanks to you guys that have scored & run big matches, Linda & Denise. Great discussion.

I'm not ready to change how we score matches but at least now I see why many of you don't do it with uspsa scoring. Yes, we do the San Angelo method of adjusting for minor/major scoring.

MLM

Yeah, the weekend is over and we're all back on our meds.

[Flexmoney]

I am not a multi-gunner, so I probably do not understand all the issues involved, but it would seem to me that the following might simplify things some...

You are either shooting major or minor... period. If all the weapons you use make major, you are scored major. If ANY of the weapons you use go minor, you are shooting minor...

Clay,

I made that exact suggestion a few years back. It was meet with a resounding ...thud.

That covers the USPSA history of DVC.

It likely reflects 9mm and .223 properly.

12 guage...not so much. But, then again, 20 gauge makes Major too...so that seems weird (Note: Ohio is a shotgun state for deer, I realize that 20g is effective)

Folks, the major minor thing seems to throw people off (from what has been posted here).

Someobody suggested earlier...any two guns make major, then major...any two guns make minor, then minor.

Wouldn't that be a vast improvement?

[D.Hayden]

I will probably go to six (6) points or better to neutralize for 3-Gun. A C/D won't cut it without incuring a 5 second penalty. Easy to call the hits and not confuse the scorekeeper...

I like this.. or some variation.. you can ramp up accuracy by requiring a higher point value.. but still quick to score.. Gets rid of the D/D hosing..

[bigbrowndog]

No it wouldn't...........Flex.

weapons should be scored EXACTLY the way they apply the projectile to the target, major or minor.

Trapr

Edited October 8, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Jack T]

Yeah, it does matter. If I am shooting major pistol and minor rifle on the same stage and the majority of the course is pistol, I damn well do not want to get scored minor.

To start with I don't know who decided the .223 should be scored minor. Yeah it pales next to the .308, but then the .308 pales next to a Barrett 50.

Change rifle to major and be done with it all together. Simple eh. All this crap is the same as the argument/discussion about stopping power/knockdown power and such. The only caliper that has true stopping power is out of a 155 howitzer or getting hit by a train.

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

[Flexmoney]

No it wouldn't...........Flex.

weapons should be scored EXACTLY the way they apply the projectile to the target, major or minor.

Trapr

Isn't 9mm pistol pretty popular in the various MG matches? Minor?

[outerlimits]

maybe, but then it will be like R & R-where hi-cap 9's and steel loads were a great idea. i don't really care about all the different rules. just read 'em and deal with 'em. come to think of it, i hate changing my shotgun tube from 14 rounds back to 10 a couple times a year.

[Benelli Chick]

Chris,

Its not the USPSA scoring method (San Angelo) at USPSA 3 Gun Nationals that is broken...

Its non-3 gunners with no clue how to run a major 3 gun match running the show with NO SUPPORT from headquarters. A EXPERIENCED 3 GUN MD needs to step up and do the job right. This fictious person should have the nads to tell headquarters to shove their weak prize table and anything else they want to so they can put on the match that they know they can do, DESPITE headquarters. Yes, an uphill battle for sure, but that is gonna be what it will take to get USPSA 3 gun nationals on the major hit list.

jj

PS; enjoyed shooting with you Chris!

Really did not want to open that can of worms here.

Almost sounds like you are volunteering?

Seriously, enjoyed shooting with you guys also and believe it or not our talk after the match was really helpful also.

No!!!! He is NOT volunteering!!!!!

[Jack T]

Yeah, it does matter. If I am shooting major pistol and minor rifle on the same stage and the majority of the course is pistol, I damn well do not want to get scored minor.

To start with I don't know who decided the .223 should be scored minor. Yeah it pales next to the .308, but then the .308 pales next to a Barrett 50.

Change rifle to major and be done with it all together. Simple eh. All this crap is the same as the argument/discussion about stopping power/knockdown power and such. The only caliper that has true stopping power is out of a 155 howitzer or getting hit by a train.

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

I left this out: It should not be so much a game of power but that of shot placement and accuracy.

Have a nice day,

Jack

[Alan Meek]

Yeah, it does matter. If I am shooting major pistol and minor rifle on the same stage and the majority of the course is pistol, I damn well do not want to get scored minor.

To start with I don't know who decided the .223 should be scored minor. Yeah it pales next to the .308, but then the .308 pales next to a Barrett 50.

Change rifle to major and be done with it all together. Simple eh. All this crap is the same as the argument/discussion about stopping power/knockdown power and such. The only caliper that has true stopping power is out of a 155 howitzer or getting hit by a train.

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

I left this out: It should not be so much a game of power but that of shot placement and accuracy.

Have a nice day,

Jack

So we should only use 22lr ?

[jdtravers]

Yeah, it does matter. If I am shooting major pistol and minor rifle on the same stage and the majority of the course is pistol, I damn well do not want to get scored minor.

To start with I don't know who decided the .223 should be scored minor. Yeah it pales next to the .308, but then the .308 pales next to a Barrett 50.

Change rifle to major and be done with it all together. Simple eh. All this crap is the same as the argument/discussion about stopping power/knockdown power and such. The only caliper that has true stopping power is out of a 155 howitzer or getting hit by a train.

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

I left this out: It should not be so much a game of power but that of shot placement and accuracy.

Have a nice day,

Jack

So we should only use 22lr ?

Aren't you the same guy that said USPSA bought the Steel Challenge so you could figure out why it made money? Your smart reply is one of the reasons USPSA is falling behind the power curve.

Jack

[ken hebert]

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

This is how I score the multi-gun matches we shoot at my home club. Everything is scored as major, and has worked out very well/easy up to now. As a disclaimer, evey shooter so far in all of my matches have shot a .223, so I've not had to contend with a major/minor argument in scoring. My solution is not perfect for all matches, but works great for me and we score is with good ole EZWS.

We've talked about time+ scoring and doing it on the fly much like out monthly steel match.

[Alan Meek]

Yeah, it does matter. If I am shooting major pistol and minor rifle on the same stage and the majority of the course is pistol, I damn well do not want to get scored minor.

To start with I don't know who decided the .223 should be scored minor. Yeah it pales next to the .308, but then the .308 pales next to a Barrett 50.

Change rifle to major and be done with it all together. Simple eh. All this crap is the same as the argument/discussion about stopping power/knockdown power and such. The only caliper that has true stopping power is out of a 155 howitzer or getting hit by a train.

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

I left this out: It should not be so much a game of power but that of shot placement and accuracy.

Have a nice day,

Jack

So we should only use 22lr ?

Aren't you the same guy that said USPSA bought the Steel Challenge so you could figure out why it made money? Your smart reply is one of the reasons USPSA is falling behind the power curve.

Jack

Jack I am not the one the said that about the Steel Challenge.

I am the Area Director that brought an Inaugural Multigun Championship to Area 8. Along with Howard Thompson as the MD and Dean DeTurk as the RM and the Great Staff we put on a Multigun Championship that welcomed 99 competitors and they shot 7 Stages that totaled 318 Rounds (Avg 45 per stage). We used the San Angelo Scoring and had ZERO issues. The only delay in finishing the scoring was trying to locate a couple of misplaced scoresheets. We also had a great Sponsor Participation with Larue, DPMS, Smith and Wesson, Otis Technology, Safariland, and others that joined us in this inaugural event.

So I am and have been watching this topic with great interest.

USPSA is not falling behind the power curve, there are some areas we need to improve on and I will do what I can to work on those improvements.

One thing that seems to be the constant is not the scoring, it is the administration of the match. A poorly run match will be a poor match and an exceptional run match will be exceptional.

Alan

[LChico]

Get rid of the power factors and move into the 21st century. Let's face it, this is a game. Keep it fun. Get rid of the main problem area and that is between major and minor scoring.

This is how I score the multi-gun matches we shoot at my home club. Everything is scored as major, and has worked out very well/easy up to now. As a disclaimer, evey shooter so far in all of my matches have shot a .223, so I've not had to contend with a major/minor argument in scoring. My solution is not perfect for all matches, but works great for me and we score is with good ole EZWS.

We've talked about time+ scoring and doing it on the fly much like out monthly steel match.

I have heard that system is in use at a number of "local" matches. And it is a piece of cake to score using EZWinScore if everything is treated like major. The only issue comes in when your local shooters decide to go to a sectional level or Area match. I try to run all our local matches by the appropriate national organization rules, so that our shooters who attend the big matches are prepared for those events.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[Jack T]

USPSA Scoring. I shot my first USPSA match in 1979 at Sanford, NC when I was stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. I shot it with a Colt Gold Cup .45. I was hooked ever since. Just wanted to make it clear I am very aware of where the sport came from.

Times have changed. Yeah it was all about power back then but now we have so many divisions it just isn't the same. Back then we basically had two divisions. I can't remember exactly but I think it was stock and modified? Or maybe stock and open. Long time.

My point: Iron Man/He Man is shot with a .308. Definitely major. They shoot in their own division. No problem there.

Why do we have to make it so difficult for ourselves to have major/minor scoring in Limited, Tactical and Open Divisions. 98% of us are shooting .223 and you get the rare 7.62X39 thrown in there but score it major accross the board and be done with it. Move on to next problem.

Sometimes I think it comes down to, mine is bigger than yours so it should score more. Oh well. I was waiting to get hammered by the .308 guys.

Later,

Jack

Edited October 9, 2008 by Jack T

[bigbrowndog]

Jack, I just sent a reply to Flex about why doing one PF across the board isn't fair when shooters want to be able to shoot real major PF weapons, but I don't want to retype all that again.

Suffice it to say you are giving an advantage to minor that should not be given, however if all your shooters are using .223 then why not just score everyone minor???????

I know that if I showed up to shoot a match with my .308 and found out that everyone would receive major PF points on paper I would be disappointed.

It may make scoring easier, but if thats all you want then just shoot time+.

BTW, this is all concerning USPSA type scoring, IMGA type.

Trapr

[Jack T]

Jack, I just sent a reply to Flex about why doing one PF across the board isn't fair when shooters want to be able to shoot real major PF weapons, but I don't want to retype all that again.

Suffice it to say you are giving an advantage to minor that should not be given, however if all your shooters are using .223 then why not just score everyone minor???????

I know that if I showed up to shoot a match with my .308 and found out that everyone would receive major PF points on paper I would be disappointed.

It may make scoring easier, but if thats all you want then just shoot time+.

BTW, this is all concerning USPSA type scoring, IMGA type.

Trapr

This is a definitely interesting. I think demographics come into play also. All my years of shooting 3-Gun/Multigun (South East), I don't believe I have ever been to a match that a shooter brought a .308, except just to play, none of them were competetive/proficient with the .308 in any way so the scoring didn't matter as they all finished last. It seems to be a whole different ball game east of the Mississippi, long range shooting and of course larger calipers. Our shooting is in your face, so a .308 just ain't gonna make it (All Speed).

So, I see your point here, especially with some of the distances you guys shoot at in the Western US Venues. They should NOT score the same.

Point taken.

So where are we Comstock vs Time Plus? Leave it to the MD's and let them decide what will work best for their venue/match.

Jack

Edited October 9, 2008 by Jack T

[RiggerJJ]

USPSA is not falling behind the power curve, there are some areas we need to improve on and I will do what I can to work on those improvements.

One thing that seems to be the constant is not the scoring, it is the administration of the match. A poorly run match will be a poor match and an exceptional run match will be exceptional.

Alan

I said it before, I'll say it again, (and maybe not get censored by Kelly this time ).

USPSA scoring is NOT BROKEN! San Angelo scoring works FINE IF the scorekeeper(s) knows how to do it. BUT I would not use an inexperienced SAN ANGELO scorekeeper above a local match level (like they did at this years nationals).

There is always gonna be the "my way is better" discussion. bottom line USPSA CHOSE to use power factors, comstock scoring, etc. right or wrong, that is what "they" decided to use. given the fact that they could have chosen ANY method of scoring AND rules for "multi-gun" because it is not reconized by IPSC, I'm not sure why they DID choose the methods they did because it was/is the least popular. they COULD have adoped and revised the 4 pages of IMGA rules and become another "outlaw" match, maybe the better choice... but hey, that's the choice they made...

What is broken is the administration of the 3 gun nationals. you can't use INEXPERIENCED 3 GUN MD/RMs! you can't insist on the MD/RM to have USPSA certification for such a specialized match, because all there are PISTOL oriented. You can't use a pistol range for 3-gun! you can't use tiny abandonment boxes! you can't (continue to) use mindless droid-like stages that resemble cowboy stages. you can't continue to IGNORE the vast knowledge that is out there when putting on a nationals. you can't continue to have meger prize tables, JUST DO TROPHYS! you MUST reconize ladys, juniors, seniors/super seniors, AND ALL classes. etc, etc....

so Alan, to address your comment, yes, USPSA IS behind the power curve in 3 gun, and has been since they started doing 3-gun/multigun.

the scoring method is the least of your worries...

jj

[Religious Shooter]

If nobody is using it... it's as good as broken.

[scirocco38s]

I am not a multi-gunner, so I probably do not understand all the issues involved, but it would seem to me that the following might simplify things some...

You are either shooting major or minor... period. If all the weapons you use make major, you are scored major. If ANY of the weapons you use go minor, you are shooting minor...

Clay,

I made that exact suggestion a few years back. It was meet with a resounding ...thud.

That covers the USPSA history of DVC.

It likely reflects 9mm and .223 properly.

12 guage...not so much. But, then again, 20 gauge makes Major too...so that seems weird (Note: Ohio is a shotgun state for deer, I realize that 20g is effective)

Folks, the major minor thing seems to throw people off (from what has been posted here).

Someobody suggested earlier...any two guns make major, then major...any two guns make minor, then minor.

Wouldn't that be a vast improvement?

Kyle , I could go for the 2 out of 3 guns pf rule in a second. It would simplify everything right back down to a simple program for ezws. I cant run 3-gun at my club yet, but when I get to, that rule maybe the one that we use regardless of the rest of the sytems out there. I can use time plus and find it to be easy. I dont care for the Fort Benning scoring of 1 a hit or 2 hits anywhere, I would rather require 2 hits on target and score it for the point or added time. I havent had exposure to the san angelo system so I wont make a opinion. The pf system still has a check when you put poppers out at 50 yds. You dont make minor, it wont go down and that is better than any chrono controversy going.

[LChico]

I am not a multi-gunner, so I probably do not understand all the issues involved, but it would seem to me that the following might simplify things some...

You are either shooting major or minor... period. If all the weapons you use make major, you are scored major. If ANY of the weapons you use go minor, you are shooting minor...

Clay,

I made that exact suggestion a few years back. It was meet with a resounding ...thud.

That covers the USPSA history of DVC.

It likely reflects 9mm and .223 properly.

12 guage...not so much. But, then again, 20 gauge makes Major too...so that seems weird (Note: Ohio is a shotgun state for deer, I realize that 20g is effective)

Folks, the major minor thing seems to throw people off (from what has been posted here).

Someobody suggested earlier...any two guns make major, then major...any two guns make minor, then minor.

Wouldn't that be a vast improvement?

Kyle , I could go for the 2 out of 3 guns pf rule in a second. It would simplify everything right back down to a simple program for ezws. I cant run 3-gun at my club yet, but when I get to, that rule maybe the one that we use regardless of the rest of the sytems out there. I can use time plus and find it to be easy. I dont care for the Fort Benning scoring of 1 a hit or 2 hits anywhere, I would rather require 2 hits on target and score it for the point or added time. I havent had exposure to the san angelo system so I wont make a opinion. The pf system still has a check when you put poppers out at 50 yds. You dont make minor, it wont go down and that is better than any chrono controversy going.

Umm - Most of the IMGA variant matches are using 1 A or 2 hits anywhere (and Ft Benning did in 2006 & 2007) but this year Ft Benning is using a scoring system that requires 2 hits on the target. Points are subtracted for hits outside of the A zone. It is like the system used to score Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun and R & R Racing 3 Gun. You will find a number of threads on this forum that are calling it the Horner scoring system.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited October 10, 2008 by LChico

[BOOGIEWOOGIE]

223 and 7.62X39 the two rds used by most of the world's armies should be major.

[Mig]

223 and 7.62X39 the two rds used by most of the world's armies should be major.

Disagree - minor. Not really fair to the guys shooting .308