Multigun Nationals Feedback Thread

[Religious Shooter]

The "last 3-gun Nationals" weren't OK Relig! I have yet to meet anyone who thought the "debacle in the desert" The Reno Nationals was anything but what the name implies! The Tulsa Nationals were dismal at best. The years in "Vegas " were described as some of the best "CLUB MATCHES" ever put on! Where do you get "OK"??? I think even the USPSA apologists finally saw that the "Emperor had no clothes" this time. Back in 2004 USPSA contacted some of the 3-gun "outlaw match directors for a bit of guidence for the Reno 3-gun, and then did the exact oposite of what was suggested...MAYBE USPSA WILL LISTEN????..... No the President rails against the outlaw matches!!! All of this squabling matters not to me as it will be a very cold day before I decide to shoot the "Nationals" ever again! KurtM

I've attended SMM3G 3-4 times. RM3G once. R&R twice. Several USPSA Areas and several smaller outlaw matches. With those matches as reference... I thought the Reno and Las Vegas match was fine and the Albany match was good.

If you thought Reno was a "debacle in the desert"... then you must think the SMM3G matches this past couple of years were also debacles. Because other than the roller coaster stage the SMM3G stages of late were of the same flavor and quality as the Reno stages.

[00bullitt]

Guys.....this threads intention was not to argue about which outlaw three gun matches were better than previous nationals and vice versa. Lets focus on this years Nationals and how to improve it in the future.

This thread is already on the fine line of getting closed. Lets try to keep it on the correct path and out of the trash.

[RiggerJJ]

(Hope I can get this typed in before this thread gets closed... )

feedback for this year's 3 gun nationals is the thread, so here is my feedback;

I'll start with next year; We need to know where & when NOW! It should have been decided BEFORE this year's match, and announced at this year's match.

MDs; Need to be experienced with 3 gun, and find help and ASK for advice! advertise for stage designs! and only 7 people putting up stages is bad.

VENUE; the Clark range is a nice facility, but not a range for a major 3 gun match. as rifle is one of the firearms used in 3 gun, you need rifle berms. 1/3 of the match needs to be on 100 yard or longer berms, with at least 2 out to 300 or more. most of the rest of the stages should be on 50x30 berms minimum. 3 gun matchs need lots of room!

PROPS; the only comment I have here is a big one; abandonment barrels/boxes/tables. I don't know why for the life of me they thought the boxes used this year were good. (here is where getting advice would have avoided the problem) I don't understand why several other MAJOR 3 gun matches continue to use something similar (some are UNSAFE, they fall apart!), or even worse, flat tables or upside down barrels, or the very worse, a corner of 2 wiggling walls! they are UNSAFE!

here's the hot tip of the century; 35 gallon Roughneck or Rubbermaid or similar rubber trash cans with hard handles that stick out and do NOT hinge(about $15 at Walmart). Standing on the ground, not tipped to tilted, staked to the ground with long rebar thru the handles and zip tied to the handles. the rubber barrel will not hurt or scratch your firearm. it doesn't need to be lined with carpet, but that is an option if you want to waste some time. you can stage one long gun in a barrel like this, shoot the other, put it into the barrel WITH the staged one, pull out the new one, and continue the stage.

for pistols; short oval shaped plastic office or bathroom trash can about 1 foot high ($2.95 at Walmart). put a 4x4x4 piece of foam in one corner, fasten it to the ground standing upright like it was designed. and presto, an instant dump bucket for pistols! again, it will not scratch or hurt the pistol because it is plactic or rubber.

Either of these can be buried into the ground a bit as well to add to the stability of the dump barrel/bucket. all firearms should be abandon muzzle down... PM me for more info!

TARGETS; NO PAPER past 50 yards! takes too long to reset the stage, even with motorized vehicles! use reactive steel out past 50 yards for rifle and shotgun slugs.

minimal amount of static birds for shotgun, better is knockdown steel plates because it takes more than one BB to knock it down (and use no-shoot steel). more moving targets for shotgun, that's what it is for! aerial birds, flipped or thrown. swinging birds, etc. swinging paper for slugs, and select slug loading needs to happen. more steel for pistol as well, which can double as CHOICE targets in a shotgun/pistol stage!

STAGES; the mindless, droid stages need to go away. you know, the ones where everybody has to shoot them the same way, everytime! this turns the match into a 100 yard dash meet. you can build stages that are quick hoser stages (only a couple per match) that have some choices built in. design stages where the shooter must solve the shooting problem, and give him choices where he can consider his strengths and weaknesses, even to the point where some targets can be engaged by your choice of firearm.

and the use of the 300-400 yard berm for a standards stage was a waste of a great berm! we could have had a great running to and fro stage with several shooting positions using the same 6 targets!

Every berm needs a couple REAL rifle racks!

REGISTRATION; Needs to be at the range, the day before the match for the majority of the shooters. earily the morning of the 1st day for the stragglers.

ROs; (I am not criticizing these guys, only their directions which came from RM and higher)

Need to be on the same page with every other RO at the match. all the same range commands, all the same procedures with long gun handling behind the firing line. how do we unbag (why not be able to unbag a pistol in the same place?), preload shotguns, etc. And chamber flags are not needed, only open bolts. I will NOT put a piece of plastic in my hot chamber after shooting a stage! if a long gun needs a chamber flag, then so do pistols!

you don't need to waste an RO guarding a table full of shotguns that have the mag tubes loaded. we don't have ROs guarding us standing in a corner at pistiol matches with pistols on one hip and LOADED MAGS on the other!

Preload shotguns all at once, or the "IN THE HOLE" shooter, not the "on deck" shooter. the on deck shooter needs to walk the stage one last time.

LAMR (MR) command needs to be given for each gun. and be kind to the shooter and make sure he turns on all of his dots!

and a bagged long gun is NOT safer than one that is not bagged.

RULES; San Angelo scoring is not that hard, need someone that is experienced using it. 3 hours after last shot to posting final scores is TOO LONG! to make it better, fix the scoring program to accomodate multi-power factors on a stage!

And if the above abandonment barrels are used properly, a shooter leaving a gun behind during a stage that he forgets to put the safety on (put properly MUZZLE DOWN in the barrel/bucket but not on safe) is NOT a major safety violation, and hence should not be a DQ! we need to stop trying to find nit picking reasons to DQ shooters. DQs should be reserved ONLY for major safety violations. We also need to stop building stages with 180 traps.

AWARDS; drop the prize table and hand out just trophys! Award ALL catagories AND classes regardless of the number of participants (as long as there is one lady or junior, they should get a trophy, all others should be 2 or more.) and each division class and catagories need to be reconized, none of the "overall" stuff, it is not fair to cross division lines.

need to publish in the match booklet that participants will break down stages. tell em ahead of time and the job will get done with little or no complaining.

jj

[Jack T]

jj,

Excellent post!! You pretty much covered all bases. It all comes down to GOOD MANAGEMENT, KNOWLEDGE, know how to dissiminate tasks and quit making decisions in a vacuum. We have too much knowledge within this organization to be ignored.

I don't want to see USPSA fail with National Level Multigun, but is management capable of learning from their past mistakes or do they really care? There doesn't seem to be much passion for the game at that level.

We have some Area Directors who appear to have a passion for the sport, so we may see some positive change. We, the members of USPSA must accept much of the blame for putting people in position who do not work toward the positive development of the sport. We need more interaction with the International Community and proper support of BOTH Divisions.

I applaude you guys (Area Directors) and will render whatever support is required to help move this sport to the next level.

Regards,

Jack T.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Jack T

[cpty1]

We have some Area Directors who appear to have a passion for the sport,..........

That's likely why there are a few Areas that consistently put on rockin' 3 gun and multi-gun matches. With the sole expection of a few of the "name" shooters not attending, I suspect this year's Area 6 match will make the recent nationals seem like a local club match.

Edited October 9, 2008 by cpty1

[geezer-lock]

feedback for this year's 3 gun nationals is the thread, so here is my feedback;...

jj

Excellent advice, hope you don't mind if I copy this out to folks in our area who are always looking for ways to improve...

Thanks,

David C

[Chuck Anderson]

From what I could tell (and I could be totally wrong) there wasn't exactly a lot of oversight from USPSA on the previous matches. And yet they turned out OK. Other than the vendor, how was LA different from any of the previous matches held out West? What exactly was the "support" that USPSA needed to provide?

As someone at least a little involved with the 06 in Albany I can honestly say, you are totally wrong. USPSA was very involved in that match. To the point the MD has refused to do another Nationals since until the staff at USPSA is changed. USPSA involvement was not a good thing.

Kurt you know how much I enjoy needling you but you are 100% correct. (ouch). I do have to say though this thread is the first time I've heard anything postitive about the Reno Nationals, anything at all. That match was so messed up.

I think some of the issues may have come from last year when the event was at USSA. That facility does pretty much everything on there own. And while there were issues at last years MG, mainly due to overcommitment, I think USPSA had the opportunity to step back and let them handle it. That clearly was not the case this year.

Someone suggested that USPSA should just scrap our MG rules and adopt IMGA rules. OK, which set. I'm betting that of the big IMGA matches DPMS, RM3G, SMM3G, and Ft. Benning all of them use rules with slightly different variations.

As far as Mike Voigt's article...it was poorly timed, based on the information received from someone who didn't bother to read the rules (or the article either by the way), and way off base. I think there is a serious lack of credibility from a shooter who doesn't read the rules for Benning and gets bumped to open, then within 8 months goes to another MG match without having read the rules and still complains about it. Dude, the first time okay, the second time...well.

[BOOGIEWOOGIE]

Very good post jj, excelent ideas, very constructive, sometimes your restricted by the range you use and just have to compensate for it in other ways.

[DA45acp]

While we are talking about letting the shooters know what to expect ahead of time I am confused about how they are moved to different divisions.

One of the guys I shoot with was at this match shooting Heavy Metal. He minored out on pistol ( a 45acp no less). Since he no longer met the requirements for Heavy Metal we knew he would be reassigned to another division. What I don't get is why he was moved to Tactical. He was shooting a single stack 45acp, pump 12ga. shotgun and iron sighted 308. This is about as Limited as one can get. You can guess how surprised I was to hear his name called in Tactical.

He had left early and didn't check the final scores (his fault I guess) but you would think who ever made the change would have used better judgment (another example of non-3gunners running the match?).

The result was one more disappointed shooter.

Dale

[bigbrowndog]

Dale, sometimes common sense is not used to move people to other divisions, they are simply moved to OPEN. Thats why its always better to check rules, know your equipment, and don't cut the edge to close on ammo.

trapr

[DA45acp]

I saw that at Nationals in Tulsa 2 years ago. Some poor guy shooting Production with a Glock with grip tape on his slide. Suddenly he is shooting Open with a 10 round, no mag well, iron sighted pistol... I know he ran afoul of the rules but what the Hell, it was just tape.

Dale

Edited October 10, 2008 by DA45acp

[Religious Shooter]

As someone at least a little involved with the 06 in Albany I can honestly say, you are totally wrong. USPSA was very involved in that match. To the point the MD has refused to do another Nationals since until the staff at USPSA is changed. USPSA involvement was not a good thing.

Do the powers that be know about this?

Edited October 10, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[outerlimits]

From what I could tell (and I could be totally wrong) there wasn't exactly a lot of oversight from USPSA on the previous matches. And yet they turned out OK. Other than the vendor, how was LA different from any of the previous matches held out West? What exactly was the "support" that USPSA needed to provide?

As someone at least a little involved with the 06 in Albany I can honestly say, you are totally wrong. USPSA was very involved in that match. To the point the MD has refused to do another Nationals since until the staff at USPSA is changed. USPSA involvement was not a good thing.

i actually thought the nationals in albany was great. stages were tough, but fair. match ran smoothly except for calling hits on stage s in the front bays. all & all i enjoyed albany. mike and all those involved (including chuck) made it work just fine, as far as i was concerned.

[Chuck Anderson]

As someone at least a little involved with the 06 in Albany I can honestly say, you are totally wrong. USPSA was very involved in that match. To the point the MD has refused to do another Nationals since until the staff at USPSA is changed. USPSA involvement was not a good thing.

Do the powers that be know about this?

Yep.

[RiggerJJ]

Another thought;

Shotgun rules DO need to be fixed; as of right now they pretty much state that you can have a mag capacity of as many rounds as you want, but can only have 9 (tactical) or 11 (open) in the mag AT ONE TIME. This puts an unfair burden on the RO of a shotgun stage to keep track of how many rounds are actually in the shotgun AT ALL TIMES WHILE THE SHOOTER IS RUNNING THE STAGE! Leaves quite a open door for a shooter to cheat...

RE; a tactical shooter starts with 9, on the buzzer he shoots 3 rounds, grabs 4 off his belt and loads them while moving. He just violated tactical rules and should be moved to open.

2nd example; a open shooter running the same stage starts with 11, shoots 3 rounds, grabs a 4 round speed loader and loads it while moving. He just violated open rules and is now shooting for no score for the rest of the match.

A more reasonable idea; tactical rules should state something to the effect that the shotgun may hold ONLY 9 rounds total.

Open rules should be changed to unlimited number of rounds like IPSC.

jj

[chendersby]

We have some Area Directors who appear to have a passion for the sport,..........

That's likely why there are a few Areas that consistently put on rockin' 3 gun and multi-gun matches. With the sole expection of a few of the "name" shooters not attending, I suspect this year's Area 6 match will make the recent nationals seem like a local club match.

Just so you know your area 6 match is not multigun it is traditional 3gun, and your area director would like to see all multigun go away in USPSA.

[norbs007]

Another thought;

Shotgun rules DO need to be fixed; as of right now they pretty much state that you can have a mag capacity of as many rounds as you want, but can only have 9 (tactical) or 11 (open) in the mag AT ONE TIME. This puts an unfair burden on the RO of a shotgun stage to keep track of how many rounds are actually in the shotgun AT ALL TIMES WHILE THE SHOOTER IS RUNNING THE STAGE! Leaves quite a open door for a shooter to cheat...

RE; a tactical shooter starts with 9, on the buzzer he shoots 3 rounds, grabs 4 off his belt and loads them while moving. He just violated tactical rules and should be moved to open.

2nd example; a open shooter running the same stage starts with 11, shoots 3 rounds, grabs a 4 round speed loader and loads it while moving. He just violated open rules and is now shooting for no score for the rest of the match.

A more reasonable idea; tactical rules should state something to the effect that the shotgun may hold ONLY 9 rounds total.

Open rules should be changed to unlimited number of rounds like IPSC.

jj

I might be wrong but the 9 in Tactical and 11 in Open only applies to LAMR before engaging the COF. That's why there's an RO assigned at pre-load.

[00bullitt]

We have some Area Directors who appear to have a passion for the sport,..........

That's likely why there are a few Areas that consistently put on rockin' 3 gun and multi-gun matches. With the sole expection of a few of the "name" shooters not attending, I suspect this year's Area 6 match will make the recent nationals seem like a local club match.

Just so you know your area 6 match is not multigun it is traditional 3gun, and your area director would like to see all multigun go away in USPSA.

Charles.....is this true? If so......I'd like to know why you want it to go away. Personal reasons or feedback from your area?

Just curious because I know that the consensus of guys that shoot 3 gun/multigun prefer multigun. I just find that within USPSA it is hard to strike a balance with efficiently running the match due to the rules and scoring complications set forth by USPSA. Hence the reason A6 chose to do a 3 gun tournament. Main reason was efficiency. I don't see the need to do away with multigun but rather fix what needs fixin to make it run efficiently.

Edited October 10, 2008 by 00bullitt

[StealthyBlagga]

I might be wrong but the 9 in Tactical and 11 in Open only applies to LAMR before engaging the COF. That's why there's an RO assigned at pre-load.

Under IMGA rules you are correct. Under USPSA rules, though, what JJ says is correct... the gun must never contain more than the permitted quantity of ammo. I prefer an equipment check to confirm that the gun can only accept the allowed number of shells, though of course some tiny minority of cheaters could still try getting around this with different shell lengths.

[cpty1]

Just so you know your area 6 match is not multigun it is traditional 3gun, and your area director would like to see all multigun go away in USPSA.

While I am very aware Area 6 is a 3 gun match, your point is well taken. It isn't fair to compare a 3 gun with a multi-gun match. While a 3 gun match isn't a simple affair to put on, it's certainly easier than a multi-gun. On the other hand, we've shot several multi-gun events at the same facility that's hosting the A6 3 gun this year. The point I was trying to, but didn't make very well, was that there are area and even local multi gun matches that parallel what we saw at the nationals this year in many aspects. Right or wrong, I think expectations for a nationals are a bit higher than that.

Edited October 10, 2008 by cpty1

[ccur]

The biggest problem I have with USPSA multigun is running a pistol match with a rifle and shotgun....I think that there are a lot of awesome multigun course designers that could ramp up the Nationals to the match that everyone wants to shoot. San Angelo scoring works, but is really hard to work with...ie: the time it takes to convert minor to major. The Multigun rules we have in USPSA are created by us...why not go with a trial run of some other scoring method in a USPSA match and see how it works (something based on time plus)......hey, its our sport and we make our rules, right Like Tim, I too come from USPSA and I hate to lose the Nationals....I am more than willing to work on whatever is necessary to keep from losing a match! There are some good people on the BOD that want to keep multigun within USPSA...lets see if we could get a committee together of USPSA shooters that love multigun and try to fix things (assuming USPSA gives them the latitude to do just that) Ask JJ and Denise or Linda Chico how to do RO's and I bet if the match was something the people wanted to shoot, you could find multigun RO's...they might not be USPSA certified, but they would be AWESOME multigun RO's!

My $.02

Cheryl

[whiskey1]

Okay. I have let my opinions of this match marinade for a few days since I was afraid that my opinions on the day or two after the match might have been affected by the awards ceremony- I find that they were but time has not changed them much. I will try to keep feedback as constructive as I know how to.

1) I won "B" Limited. There were only two others in B limited but I also shot 75.?? of Bruce Piatt. I would have enjoyed a class award as a reminder of my first Multi-gun Nationals and a match that I shot decently if not spectacularly. I paid $255, travelled 800 miles one way, shot okay and have memories. That is something, I guess.

2) I really enjoyed shooting on the famous Clark's range. The hospitality was great, range was well maintained, and lunch was not bad.

3) Stage design was not nearly as creative as any other state, area, or the other one nationals (Single Stack) that I have been to. I have attended many club matches that had more creative stage design than seen at MGN this year. This was definately a sprinter's match. The shooting challenges were straight forward and solutions were rather limited on most stages. It really tested who can shoot these targets in this manner, fastest. A decent thing to test, but should have been mixed with a couple of stages that tested different techniques and strategies (is it better to shoot this target from here or up there ?).

4) Ya'll have heard about the boxes. Nuff said.

5) Ladies, military, LE were slighted at the match. MD said at the time the awards were ordered there were not enough to rate. I respectfully disagree. I am LE. Limited winner and runner up are LE. There were several more. How many do we need? I don't know if military was in the same boat or not, but it is a Nationals. Order the awards and assume someone will qualify for the category. Same for the ladies.

6) No medals for stage wins. C'mon guys how much could it cost. People like that stuff.

7) ROs worked hard. I appreciate it. I did feel that "us vs. them" feeling that I sometimes get from ROs who no longer shoot (much). I know we could not have matches without someone working- don't need to be reminded on every other stage. We also cannot have matches without competitors. It is a symbiotic relationship. ROs travel and live on match fees. They do not get a salary, but there can be something positive in getting to travel to different parts of the country in exchange for working on a firing range during the day. It is hard work, but not exactly like coal mining. Again I am glad they do it. We need them, and for the most part this crew was very good when not suffering "long gun paranoia". Those shotguns will not jump off the table and start spraying the crowd just because a shooter is standing within 5 feet of them...

8) Much of the satisfaction of shooting action rifle is getting to shoot rective targets at some distance. The only stage where those targets were available was a timed fire standards stage. I fired exactly 2 rounds at the 300 yard targets (hit one). It would have been nice to get to run a comstock stage that let shooter figure out and solve rifle shooting challenges on the clock. Those of you who shot the Blue Ridge Mountain match this year know what I mean.

Now for the whole "What's up with USPSA question".

People who put on multi-gun outlaw matches have a vested interest in the quality of those matches to ensure participation and sponsors' support. One match a year is also all most of them want to do. Most of them do not have a full time paid staff like USPSA. USPSA is a business organization that has a vested interest in producing revenue for the association- hence the purchase of Steel Challenge. The activities that make money are the ones that get support. The question becomes how does the organization make a decent return on thier investment with multi-gun? I'll bet this year USPSA was lucky to break even. To make money (given the expenses involved in renting a range, covering RO expenses, and purchasing awards) they have to attract a lot of shooters. There are several ways to do that:

1) Treat shooters like the event is "Special"- because it is. Nice awards for stage wins, class wins, special categories, events for shooters in the evenings, lots of vendors with the coolest, newest toys, nice match shirts or hats, have someone shoot random videos of the match and burn everyone a CD (shoot only give the CD to those who volunteer to tear down stages), etc., etc.

2) Provide the opportunity for shooters to do things they can't do on thier own ranges (ride in an APC?, roller coaster?, whatever. It does not really matter but it gives people something fun and positive to talk about and makes others want to participate next year. No need to make it a full-blown circus but folks want a good story to tell. Isn't that what like is about?).

3) Attract the top shooters so others will want to come to compete against their heros/the best/etc. With a couple notable exceptions (KIRKM) they did that this year.

4) Provide an opportunity at an awesome prize table. (I know, I know- if you shoot for the prize table, you are shooting for the wrong reasons. Blah, blah, blah. I don't know anyone who complained about there being too much on the tables at DPMS, CMMG-FNH, Blue Ridge, Ft. Benning, etc. Are we to believe that companies won't sponsor a Nationals just as well? I don't buy it. I do buy that most of them were not approached with the same dedication they get from the "outlaws". There was very little on the prize table from companies who traditionally support outlaw matches. Most of it appeared to be from the same folks who sponsored the various handgun nationals (wonder if it was that package deal sponsorship thing). Too much talk about prizes already. Point is lots of good prizes attract lots of shooters...Lots of shooters generate revenue- simple really.

5) Make sure the match runs as smoothly as possible. This year the staff did a great job staying on schedule, but the schedule was a problem. Staying to shoot 18 rounds on Sunday morning and attend a half fast awards ceremony cost me about another $200-300. That was not a great return on my investment. I couldn't leave the match unfinished though. It isn't in my nature. Test the stages before they are published so you don't have to change them on the first day...That is just club level stuff.

I highly reccommend that anyone who may be in the hat for MD for a future three gun nationals travel to two or three outlaw matches, the KY state, Area 6, Ft. Benning, and whatever else they can think of to pick the brains of the people who do such a great job making those matches a success. The cost would be comparable to paying expenses for two squads of ROs to attend a match and as a USPSA member I am all for our association spending a little money to learn how to do what they do better. It is a simple training expense, like any other. HQ should foot the bill to develop the expertise needed to run 1st quality matches.

Bottom line...If Ft. Benning fills in 32 seconds they are doing it right. USPSA should figure out what IT is....

I hope USPSA can eventually get thier hands on threegun/multigun and make it work as good as a pistol nationals. It will be awesome. There is a learning curve and dedication to success is paramount.

Edited October 10, 2008 by whiskey1

[00bullitt]

Well said Whiskey.....you're one smart dude behind that keyboard. I guess they just don't let everyone be Captain

I personally would have been thrilled to get two medals for my stage wins. I actually thought I was going to and that kind of made my match. I was pretty let down when stage wins did not get recognized. Guess I'll just have to shoot harder at pistol nationals next year if I want a stage win medal.

Edited October 10, 2008 by 00bullitt

[kurtm]

I have GOT to meet this "KirkM" if he is as good with a rifle as I hear he must be one bad dude!

[00bullitt]

I have GOT to meet this "KirkM" if he is as good with a rifle as I hear he must be one bad dude!

I heard hes one hell of a point shooter out to like 600 yards with .14 splits

I heard he doesn't even have a front sight post and removed his rear peep.....he just sorta brackets between the wings.

This guy must not be human