Big Match prizes

[D.Hayden]

I just thought it would be fair to point out the prize table policy of the last MGM Iron Man:

http://www.mgmtargets.com/iron_man/2008/20...dist_letter.pdf

It may not be a perfect distribution but I think it's a good effort and I can support that. Makes me glad I have an MGM swinger in my backyard.

The only odd thing was the Classes.. I don't think they were really classes.. maybe percentile finihshes (sort of random).

[benelli2]

Funny thing about this is, I remember being a Newbie just like it was yesterday, there were three of us who had the itch, but there was one old guy that won all the time, now looking back he really wasnt that old, but he kicked our butt's all the time, so we practiced, we watched, we learned and finally we gained on him and passed him, He was Ronnie Elrod, and he was the man!, he gave us the goal of what to push for and provided the measuring stick, and I never felt bad when he went to a prize table ahead of us through those growing years, just motivated me/ us more. The other guys were Joe Kessler and Dave Dawson both turned out to be great shooters as well before working in to other things, Thanks Ronnie, and you to Wadette for all the scoring in Florida.

I think a match should give prizes away any way they want, just let the folks know ahead and let them choose what matches to attend, that's what I have done. Pick that matches that suit you and let the rest go, its that easy, no worries

jc

[hopalong]

Prize Distrubution..............................

Lets see..................................

When I hosted the Mississippi state 3-gun this is what I(we) did. ( A really good match, from what everyone told me) (but they may have been "Just saying that")

I first of all TOLD everyone MONTHS ahead of time this is what I was going to do...........................

Cash payback to HOA per division. $250 (match fee was 100)

Cash payback to classes per division IF 3 in a class I paid 1st. IF 5 I paid 1 & 2. IF 7 I paid 1,2 &3. A percentage of how many in the division but 1st always got more than the entry and second got his entry back.

(I did recognize GM as a class too) (IF there was the obligatory 3)

I told everyone before hand that it was also a BENIFIT match for RED Cross and at the end of the match we gave them $1500.

I also got a lot of begging done and had a pretty good prize table for folks to go RANDOMLY. the prize table was enough that all competitors went 2 times and I also had a generous Range officer table besides the match table.

Thanks to folks like:

Benny HILL, Blackhawk, 3-gun Gear, Springfield armory, Remington, Montana Gold, Starline Brass, Sierra Bullet, MIKE GIBSON/ MGM target ect.

So the best of BOTH worlds..............................Cash payback for all your hard work, and a RANDOM prize table for the lucky and unlucky. PLUS we gave Red Cross $1500 ..............which some of that was used the next week for a family that thier house burned to the ground in the middle of the night.

Unfortunately, the next year was KATRINA.

Then the next year, for some reason beyond me a week prior to the match I had only 21 entrys and 15 of the were range officers so due to that reason and a few others internally in the club (NO HELP) we canceled and have not done another................

SOAP BOX MODE ON:

PLEASE do the MATCH DIRECTORS A FAVOR and send your entry forms in ASAP so they can plan accordingly

SOAP BOX MODE OFF:

We would like to host another match, and have had several inquiries but after getting burned by not having participants the second time around we a honestly scared to do so.

Now here is my opinion. (NOT that it matters, and see my signature line about opinions)

IF I want to go shoot, I'll go if I can afford the trip and it is a good reputable match or a new one needing help/attendance (gotta start somewhere as a club/match)

The prize distrubution doesn't matter to me personally. BUT IF I have to choose between 2 on the same weekend or in the same month and have to go to only 1. I'm more likely to go to the one where they award by finish even though I know I will be down that list a ways.

HOPE that helps,

Hopalong

[cksh8me]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't it possible to win the match and not be the fastest?

You can't compare this sport to NASCAR, football, tennis etc. They play to one winner. If you want to compare this sport to something LeMans would be closer they run one race with different classes in the same race.

The difference they have is the fastest guy wins not the guy with the highest percentage. The premier class gets a higher payout than the lower classes.

I'm no danger to walk the prize table anywhere near the top. By the time I get there I need a flashlight because everybody else has gone home. I'm for the fastest guy wins, not random drawing.

The best way to work the prize table is the way the people putting on the match want to do it. They're the ones with a nut to crack.

Edited October 15, 2008 by cksh8me

[mpeltier]

All hail order of finish--------------

I prefer to use up all of my luck shooting the stages (and usually do)

[Charles Bond]

Without expressing a strong opinion either way, what I can say is that the thing that ruins an order of finish match are the categories and the classes. It seems to me that if order of finish is the way to go it ought to totally ignore these but if we do this, why do we have categories and classes and for that matter divisions in the first place?

Based on what I have heard the under 40 crowd, the Ms, GMs and most of the As, the ladies and the juniors, and those rapidly climbing the classification latter support the order of finish concept. The over 40 crowd, classifications A and down, the seniors and the super seniors, and those who are classified too high already or who are stuck where they are for any number of reasons tend to support random draws. My personal sense is that the many of the sponsors like the random draw. I am not saying that everyone feels this way but rather this is generally true.

As far as attendance, we have used random draw for the prize tables at the area 6 match for years. This year we did an order of finish which added much more labor to set up the prize tables. Both matches were well attended and the difference in the number of shooters was not significant.

Now before you answer and tell me you are a regular match sponsor who is an over 40 lady who is stuck in B class and you like order of finish, let me go hide in my bedroom and pull the covers over my head.

Charles

[mpeltier]

Charles

The Area 6 3-gun match has been order of finish for the last two years. Bieng this is posted in the 3-gun forums I thought that might be more relevant. And I might say it went smoothly and I recall no grumbling about it.

I am not a lady (nor would I be were i a female) or a match sponsor, but I am stuck in B-class and over 40.

This out to be a poll (prize table preferance), or is it somewhere?

[badchad]

This out to be a poll (prize table preferance), or is it somewhere?

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=71470&hl=

[EkuJustice]

I would do a combination of the 2. Each division top say 3 are awarded prizes based on finish the rest are done in a drawing fashion. I haven't shot this game long but I have shot alot of competition skeet for a while and awarding prizes based on class wins has alot of cheating problems. I have seen a guy classed D and E ie lowest class, with low 80s averages shoot a couple local targets only shoots and shoot his low 80s or worse. Then a big shoot comes along he walks out there in D and E class and starts shooting 98+ in every event and wins every event for his class so 5 individual events + 2 events for the 400 targets and 500 targets combined event and won them by a good deal. He walked away from this shoot with a 1100 target shotgun custom made for the shoot and about 30 flats of ammo. Came back the next year and does it again. Also, this individual was a master class sporting clays shooter that did this one. There are other people doing the exact same thing in any sport of any class out there. Blow the classifiers and stay down there in the lower classes. Top couple places in dividion prizes awarded by finish and trophys etc for the classes and then random drawing for the rest of the prizes. It awards both the top shooters and helps eliminate the benefit of staying down in a class lower than you belong in.

[Charles Bond]

I would do a combination of the 2. Each division top say 3 are awarded prizes based on finish the rest are done in a drawing fashion..... It awards both the top shooters and helps eliminate the benefit of staying down in a class lower than you belong in.

That is one way to do it but in so doing, are you not really saying classes do not really matter since the GM/M will receive prizes based on finish and the rest will receive prizes based only on a random draw? USPSA has always been about classes and that enjoys wide support among the membership.

I know what you are saying regarding skeet. As long as skeet makes it sosss easy to go down in class (show up, pay the entry, shoot really bad) the situation you cite will continue. Fortunately, the USPSA classification system will only move those who are truly deserving to be moved to a different class.

[EkuJustice]

It wasnt that you were able to move down, it was that they just made the averages where they wouldnt move up. Ie shoot some bad ones and the shoot a good one when it counts and the bad ones take care of the good one average wise. It can be somewhat done here just blow the classifiers and shoot the matches that have a decent table yet arnt bring you up

[Charles Bond]

Much harder to do in USPSA matches since the matches that have the great prize tables in USPSA matches tend to attract enough GMs in each class that the match result itself is used as a classifier. That obviously does not keep someone from sandbagging once but they can not repeat it.

[TRUBL]

Been a long time for me doin the USPSA thing.....but isn't there a procedure that needs to be followed if prizes are given in an order of finish thing? Atleast for the higher level USPSA matches? Or do they leave it up to the MD?

Something like 1st in each class.....then the top senior, top lady, top junior, ect (not sure on that order).....then a top down?

If thats the case, I don't think it is open for debate.....well, except for if it's gonna be that way or a random prize drawing.

I've got no dog in that race......so it's more of a question? or maybe just a comment? or am I all wet?

Tim

[ccur]

I will usually go to a match that I think will be fun no matter how the prizes are awarded ( or even if there are none) BUT....I especially HATE the closed bags...You never really see what the sponsors gave so generously and who really cares what you choose except YOU! My $.02

Cheryl

[SMSI]

Hand out the sponser's prizes anyway the match director wants. Just advertise it advance, like Jeff said, so everyone can choose,

However, to make this game interesting and potentially profitable (to those who what to participate), we need to take a lesson from golf and set up a betting system. We could handicap for ability and equipment class. Maybe have a "shotgun" match where a shotgun is actually used. No one would be forced to put money in, but those who do would have a shot at part of the pot. It would take a little math, but if golfers can do it , I guess shooters could. If this really caught on, a portion of the entry fee could be put in the pot.

I didn't study the whole thread, so this may have already been suggested.

[whiskey1]

Here goes:

1) I used to rodeo before getting a real job. Bull riding is fun, but how many cowboys would show up if prize money was distributed randomly to encourage more people to participate? I'm bettin' not many.

2) If prizes are distributed randomly no one "won" anything. They were lucky enough to be given something.

3) I am a competitor. I go to matches to compete. I want to beat the rest of you and take the good stuff home with me. I offer no apology.

4) I am also friendly and try to exhibit a bit of class so if you beat me and take the good stuff home with you I will congradulate you and smile. I will then go practice more.

5) I have won a rifle, an upper, two custom knives, and some other stuff this year. I won all three of my Glocks at GSSF matches. I have sold only one item this year. If I win other stuff in the future I reserve the right to sell it though. I won it. It is mine.

6) I do not want to pay high entry fees to ensure a great prize table only to have prizes randomly awarded. I want to pay high entry fees in order to ensure that if I shoot well I will get something nice (witness the MGNats thread).

7) I prefer to shoot tac irons because it is fun to hit long range targets with iron sights. I am fortunate enough to see and shoot irons well enough that Robby, Kurt, Rodney, and Bruce are just leaving the table when I get there. I now shoot Tac Optics in all of the big prize table matches because of the prize distribution. Many irons competitors, usually over half, at a match are capable of shooting into the top 20% of Tac Optics but do not do well at the table becasue of the large number of new shooters, keyboard commandos, etc. who enter Tac Optics.

8) I mean all of this in the nicest most professional way possible.

[Chris]

3) I am a competitor. I go to matches to compete. I want to beat the rest of you and take the good stuff home with me. I offer no apology.

4) I am also friendly and try to exhibit a bit of class so if you beat me and take the good stuff home with you I will congradulate you and smile. I will then go practice more.

Well said.. +1

[Charles Bond]

Let us not confuse "prizes" with "rewards."

Rewards are trophies and (yes there is a system in place for USPSA matches) and cash payback if that is included.

Prizes are things sponsors donate to a match. Sometimes the match buys extra prizes. Since the prizes are donated to the match by sponsors to promote their product, the match that promotes that product the best is likely to get more sponsor support next year. I have had far more sponsors tell me that they would prefer their product to be used as prizes rather than as rewards.

I have shooters who only want order of finish and I have shooters who only want random. Most do not care about the issue so much as to outright reject that which is not their personal preference but rather shoot the match for mainly for fun. Our turnouts in Area 6 have been best when we had a reasonable entry fee with random draw for prizes.

As a further note on prizes, most matches pull a portion of them to use for the range officers who appear just fine with them being awarded by a random drawing rather than order of finish among ROs so even if the match tells you it is an order of finish match, it is not entirely so.

Lastly, if our sport could attract what the rodeo folks make in term of prize money, we would not worry about who gets a flashlight.

[kellyn]

Obama says that we should spread the wealth around.

[kurtm]

The two times I shot the Area 6 3-gun, it was by order of finsh so I guess I am confused by your post. I am not however confused about Kelly's post KurtM

[Chuck Anderson]

I have had far more sponsors tell me that they would prefer their product to be used as prizes rather than as rewards.

As a further note on prizes, most matches pull a portion of them to use for the range officers who appear just fine with them being awarded by a random drawing rather than order of finish among ROs so even if the match tells you it is an order of finish match, it is not entirely so.

First off, my experience talking to sponsors has been the opposite of yours. I contacted about 350 potential sponsors for the Area 1 matches this year. How many did you speak to that said they wanted their product randomlly given away to shooters? I had about 2.

As far as the RO table going randomly. How else would you do it? Best RO gets the best prize? The table is there to reward their hard work, not to reward their performance in the match.

I don't agree with your discounting of rewards as trophies only. Rewards have traditionally been considered something more than a block of wood. Hey, if you arrest Billy the Kid we'll give you a trophy. I don't think so. Prize tables should reward something other than random luck of the draw.

[Chuck Anderson]

The two times I shot the Area 6 3-gun, it was by order of finsh so I guess I am confused by your post. I am not however confused about Kelly's post KurtM

Charles was referring to the Area 6 Pistol Match, not the Area 6 3-Gun match. I know it's hard to keep track since this the 3 Gun forum and he keeps bringing up pistol matches.

[kurtm]

I think it was more like "SHOOT Billy the Kid and we will give you a block of wood" KurtM

[Charles Bond]

The two times I shot the Area 6 3-gun, it was by order of finsh so I guess I am confused by your post. I am not however confused about Kelly's post KurtM

You are correct that is the way we have done the 3-gun.

[Charles Bond]

The two times I shot the Area 6 3-gun, it was by order of finsh so I guess I am confused by your post. I am not however confused about Kelly's post KurtM

Charles was referring to the Area 6 Pistol Match, not the Area 6 3-Gun match. I know it's hard to keep track since this the 3 Gun forum and he keeps bringing up pistol matches.

Is there a basis for doing it one way for 3 gun and another way for multigun and yet another for pistol?