ffl Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I have been shooting and RO'ing our local matches for 3 years now and I have a question. See lower right picture on page 34 of Front Sight (latest Issue) What do you see? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I'm at work, can you post pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted July 15, 2008 Author Share Posted July 15, 2008 I don't have a scanner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 The lady with the dummy and the open gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) at that match..shooters engaged four targets while holding the dummy and moving downrange, she might have lowered the gun to move to the next target. Its the area with the single targets obscured by the barrels. also on that stage..RO would not have been in position to see that..camera is in a spot that is in the shoot area. Edited July 15, 2008 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Finger on the trigger. ETA: If the RO didn't see it, it didn't happen, right? Edited July 15, 2008 by CSEMARTIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 You can't always tell what's going on with video or photo. That's why we have... 11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted July 15, 2008 Author Share Posted July 15, 2008 so as I understand it it is this way. 1. If you can do it and not get caught it is oK 2. If the RO's don't see it it didn't happen. See this thread Granted I understand the stage description and layout could have her engaging targets. However the rules state if you are not aiming and shooting the finger must be out of the guard. I don't see her aiming or shooting. I just find it Ironic that the WHOLE basis of our sport is SAFETY WHILE SHOOTING. and here we have in our magazine a "possible" DQ infraction. At the very least it sends the wrong message. Pictures from earlier issues even made the point that the finger was outside the trigger guard on the shooter shown as he/she was moving to get a shot. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferges99 Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 How do we know she's not engaging a target as she is moving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Granted I understand the stage description and layout could have her engaging targets. However the rules state if you are not aiming and shooting the finger must be out of the guard. I don't see her aiming or shooting. exactly..you were not there. you are trying to judge something from one still photo,. the targets are close, the targets are visible within a step of each other. you don't know yet you are making a judgement as a third party. so as I understand it it is this way.1. If you can do it and not get caught it is oK 2. If the RO's don't see it it didn't happen. I wouldn't make that leap. we compete under a set of rules and we all agree to compete under those rules. there are punishments that are given by the ROs when infractions are caught. Just because you don't get caught makes it alright. like speeding in a car. some drive at the posted limits, some don't. some get caught, some don't. still doesn't make it legal. Edited July 15, 2008 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I have been shooting and RO'ing our local matches for 3 years now and I have a question. How many shooters have you DQ'ed for finger in the trigger guard in that 3yrs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm3gnr Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I was at that match as well. The target on the right was engaged while moving and immediately to the left were targets behind barrels. Jenny was doing what just about all of were doing, moving fast and shooting. This is just like others said, A picture can not tell all in this situation. And yes ! I have seen many shooters get away with stuff because the RO could either not keep up with them or can not be in the posistion to see what is going on. Now do not misunderstand this as all or most or some people are cheating intentionaly, stuff just happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Frankly, even with a magnifying glass I can't tell if her finger is on the trigger or just visible through the trigger guard (i.e. beside the trigger). There is no way to tell from the photo if she is about to engage the target (and maybe moving to put her finger on) or if she is taking her finger off as she moves. If you look at the vids of this stage from the match, you'll see people swing from the tgt on the right to the one on the left behind the barrel moving a half step. Others shot everything from behind the table and then scooted up and engaged the tgts behind the barrels. If I'm not mistaken, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Since EVERYTHING at the double tap is run and gun (which is within the rules - finger on the trigger while engaging targets and moving), I would have to assume she is setting up to engage the targets behind the barrels as per the stage description that EERW posted. ETA: The description isn't visually the same as the set up was...these targets were powder burn distance at max 5 yards. I would say she was definitely moving and engaging. Edited July 15, 2008 by carinab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Well.. it took 15 days for this thread to start. I owe my wife some $. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffl Posted July 15, 2008 Author Share Posted July 15, 2008 I have not dq'ed anyone for finger in trigger. I Have DQ'ed someone for 180. I know I was not there. I am not saying that she should be DQ'ed (ie Taren Butler in IDPA). I just think that a better picture could be shown and not one that could be interpreted as a possible violation. I actually was told by another USPSA Member when I pointed out the finger in the picture that it is OK to move your feet and not remove your finger from the trigger guard. and that the finger out of the trigger guide only applied if you were moving between boxes. Thanks for your interpretations If the stage description was to shoot targets as you move then I understand the context. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I actually was told by another USPSA Member when I pointed out the finger in the picture that it is OK to move your feet and not remove your finger from the trigger guard. and that the finger out of the trigger guide only applied if you were moving between boxes. I not sure that is accurate advise. It's not really about feet and boxes. (although movement is defined in the glossary) I think you were closer to the mark with the rules you referred to earlier. What I tell my RO's to look for... - Is the shooter actively engaging targets ? - Are you 100% sure the finger was in the trigger guard? (I've seen plenty that were 99% sure.) Truth be told, our shooter need much better finger discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Frankly, even with a magnifying glass I can't tell if her finger is on the trigger or just visible through the trigger guard (i.e. beside the trigger). There is no way to tell from the photo if she is about to engage the target (and maybe moving to put her finger on) or if she is taking her finger off as she moves. If you look at the vids of this stage from the match, you'll see people swing from the tgt on the right to the one on the left behind the barrel moving a half step. Others shot everything from behind the table and then scooted up and engaged the tgts behind the barrels. If I'm not mistaken, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Since EVERYTHING at the double tap is run and gun (which is within the rules - finger on the trigger while engaging targets and moving), I would have to assume she is setting up to engage the targets behind the barrels as per the stage description that EERW posted.ETA: The description isn't visually the same as the set up was...these targets were powder burn distance at max 5 yards. I would say she was definitely moving and engaging. Like Carina, I took a look at this one with a magnifying glass. The best I can come up with is that I can see her finger through the trigger guard (not in the trigger guard, but I can look through it and see her finger.). So, IMO, it's not close to a DQ, but it is a good statement as to why we don't allow photos and videos as evidence. As an RO, you can only call what you see, not what you think you see, so you'd better be sure before making this kind of call. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 The problem with photographs taken with zoom lenses is that distances between objects are fore-shortened. Movie makers use this trick a lot, if they want to show someone leaping out the way of a runaway truck then have the truck coming straight on to the camera and the stuntman about 20-30 feet in front of it. With the camera set some distance away with a large lens the distances seem closer and it looks like the guy gets out of the way in the nick of time. With this photograph we have the same issue. Her finger could be 1.5 inches away from from the trigger guard but the fore-shortening of distance could make it look like it was almost inside the trigger guard. As others have said this is the main reason why photographic evidence is a problem for this sport. I remember a photo from Nationals at Oregon where it appeared that a shooter was breaking the 90 degree rule (by a mile), what was not clear from the picture was that the stage was set up at an angle inside the berm. Having said all that I think the editors at Front Sight need to review the photos more carefully to ensure that we don't give a bad impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throwin Lead Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I actually was told by another USPSA Member when I pointed out the finger in the picture that it is OK to move your feet and not remove your finger from the trigger guard. and that the finger out of the trigger guide only applied if you were moving between boxes. I not sure that is accurate advise. It's not really about feet and boxes. (although movement is defined in the glossary) I think you were closer to the mark with the rules you referred to earlier. What I tell my RO's to look for... - Is the shooter actively engaging targets ? - Are you 100% sure the finger was in the trigger guard? (I've seen plenty that were 99% sure.) Truth be told, our shooter need much better finger discipline. What I noticed working major matches as a RO is the the upper class of shooters(GM, M, A) seem to go out of their way to make sure that the finger is visible when moving. I noticed at Summer Blast one particular GM had his finger almost on the top of the slide while moving a good 10 yards to his left on a dead run. I guess that that upper class level don't want their day ruined by a RO "thinking" they saw a finger in the trigger guard - they hang it out there for all to see. If that mentality would only filter down...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ38super Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 With all this attention on this photo, why not pick on the front cover with Rob? Just shows it is only a part of the whole picture (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 why not pick on the front cover with Rob? I noticed that right away, but since I shot the SSC and know which stage that was, I know the target was right there and was engaged. This proves the point that you don't know the whole story unless you were there. The problem I have with the girl on p.34 is her gun looks canted up into the air to me. And if you can't tell with a magnifying glass where her finger is on a still photo, how can you expect the RO to make that call on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 If the stage description was to shoot targets as you move then I understand the context. Did you READ the WSB posted above? I would GUESS you also RO the local IDPA matches and commend you for your involvment in the shooting sports. Now its time to seek out and attend an NROI RO class for additional knowledge/information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 so as I understand it it is this way.1. If you can do it and not get caught it is oK 2. If the RO's don't see it it didn't happen. See this thread Granted I understand the stage description and layout could have her engaging targets. However the rules state if you are not aiming and shooting the finger must be out of the guard. I don't see her aiming or shooting. I just find it Ironic that the WHOLE basis of our sport is SAFETY WHILE SHOOTING. and here we have in our magazine a "possible" DQ infraction. At the very least it sends the wrong message. Pictures from earlier issues even made the point that the finger was outside the trigger guard on the shooter shown as he/she was moving to get a shot. Dave #1&2 is pretty much as it is with anything in this life. Probably not the best choice of Pix. One of the worst was an Gun Rag that had a pix of a guy seeming to shoot at a Propane Tank with no back stop even, it was explained that it wasn't quite as bad as it looked. That the angles don't always transfer well in a pix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 As said before in this tread, now we can all "see" clearly why photographs and video in not allowed as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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