Growing the Sport!

[mpeltier]

Flex you read my mind. Reading these posts had me thinking these ideas are great but its catering to those already involved to some degree. How do we attract those that have no Idea we even hold these kind of events? For me I stumbled upon it by accident one day while at the range plugging targets. Saw a bunch of guys and gals with holsters shooting stages next to the public range and it cought my attention. I joined the club and never looked back. I had no clue this type of shooting even took place up till then. Getting the word out thru advertising at gun ranges, gun shows, gun shops, the internet, etc would be possible ways to get the word out. We need to "Get the attention" of those we wish to attract. And youth isn't 25% its 100%. that was each and every one of us at one point. They are essential for the growth of this sport. Don't just take your kid(s) to a match take someone elses also.

[M ammo]

3 Gun will grow people just have to have a place to play. We get peole that drive a few hours to come to our local monthly match.

As adults many of us unknowingly perhaps, miss playing with our friends.

Shooting 3 Gun is a way to get out and play with your friends.

I’m a pretty good 3 Gunner, but I’ll probably never be a national champion.

Having a fair, fun match playing with all your shooting toys, getting together with friends and enjoying the whole experience.

That is priceless, and worth sharing.

[GentlemanJim]

We have a saying at my home club "If you shoot a multigun match one time, we gotcha". Pretty much that's it. It's done thru stage design and how friendly the club members treat you. All can remember how the first 3 gun match that you shot. Damn shotgun!..... Damn rifle wasn't zeroed right!..... I've seen I don't know how many pistol shooters ask about 3 gun during a pistol match and someone always comes up and says "show up and shoot and you can use my stuff the next match and see if you like it". Everyone has the attitude of let's see if we can get another over to the Dark Side. They are all there to help the new guys out. I think that's why our club has such a "hardcore" following.

Another is innovative stage design. I mean put some stuff out there that will challenge you. The best matches that I have ever shot have been our local match. You see some wack stuff, but fair. You have the feeling like "Holy shat man, I want to shoot that again" with a smile on your face.

I'm a nobody shooter.. (right now) but I have a 5 year old that can cram 8 shells in a shotgun better than yours. One hour a day 2 days a week is dedicated to him. He can take apart and put together an AR and draws my airsoft pistol like a champ. Fundementals... I wish that I had that chance at his age. Expose them to it when they are young. My son has been going to 3 gun matches since he was two years old. I catch him practicing with his nerf dart guns all the time. Youth are about 25% of the future. When I get a new AR, shotgun, or pistol I won't sell the old one. That way I can hold on to it and keep it for him someday when he is ready. And when he's ready he'll have the tools and the club backing to be great! If he sticks with it he'll be a machine. As long as I can keep the cars and girls out of it.

Here's part of the future:

If you don't get the youth interested then that's 25% we didn't get.

Chris C.

Put that picture away in a safe place

I am sure you will want to revisit it in about 20 years

Jim

[DanTroxel]

"Having a fair, fun match playing with all your shooting toys, getting together with friends and enjoying the whole experience."

Pretty much sums things up!

[Topmaul]

It would be nice if we could convince some of those square rifle ranges to have multi-gun matches as well as long distance paper punching.

[SA Friday]

Having worked my share of matches, I would put forth that one of the main reasons some clubs don't put on a side rifle or shotgun match is they are stretched thin for manpower as it is. If you know club that doesn't ever do side matches, ask if you can do the work separate from the regular crew and set it up to run without them having to do the extra labor. Work with the club's big giant head for props etc, and then advertise it to the masses. The more the pistol only shooters see the masses migrating to the side match, the more the non-3 gunners will watch and think.

[StealthyBlagga]

I would like to see more single-gun matches. Just yesterday I shot in the Cavalry Arms Independence Day rifle match. Something like 65 shooters turned up in 105 degree AZ heat to compete, many of them with no prior exposure to 3-gunning. People clearly felt much more comfortable only having to focus on managing one gun, plus the costs of guns and gear are correspondingly lower. IMHO, when it comes to 3-gun, the need to bring, and be proficient with, 3 different guns is a significant barrier to entry. If we can break people in gently with rifle-only and shotgun-only matches first, they can merge into true 3-gun at their own pace as they build their confidence. Think of the growth in popularity of black rifles in the last few years - there has to be a huge pool of people with an AR15 but not a tactical shotgun that we are not tapping into.

.22 matches are fun too, and the price is definitely right, but I can't see them ever becoming as serious a competitive endeavor because of the reliability factor... cheap, bulk pack .22 ammo is just not reliable enough, and that unreliability leads to frustration. In our local .22 pistol matches, shooters can reshoot if their guns malf, which is great for beginners, but no good for serious matches. Clearing a misfired .22 round from the chamber on the clock is a truly unpleasant experience. If people are forced to use premium ammo (Mini Mags etc.) to get 100% reliability, then the cost of entry will climb, and the whole point of .22 matches is lost. If you just see .22 as a bridge to "real" 3-gun, then you are simply asking people to spend money on guns and gear that will ultimately have a short service life.

Edited July 5, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[Religious Shooter]

Rifle only matches would be great.

I started pistol at SWPL. Then started to attend rifle only matches at Bakersfield. Then started 3 Gun at the CA 3 Gun Series.

[Nik Habicht]

One of the ways to grow interest is to schedule a rifle only or shotgun only match a day before the regularly scheduled pistol match. A long range rifle stage can be transformed into the classifier stage the next day, for all other stages minor changes might need to be made. (Changes often include replacing 1/4 size rifle cardboard with fullsize cardboard, varying amounts of hard cover or no-shoots for the pistol match, while retaining the basic set-up of walls and other vision barriers, target stands, etc.)

Shotgun is easier --- as paper replaces clay birds, and steel remains steel.

People get a chance to shoot two matches in one weekend.....

[Charles Bond]

How about offering shotgun classifications and rifle classifications. We have plenty of pistol shooters who have one or both in the closet and just need the excuse to bring them to the range and that is already happening. But until we offer classifications we are doing nothing to attract the shooters who have either a rifle or a shotgun or both at home but do not have a pistol to shoot a match. Just as we can get pistol shooters excited about shooting long guns, we need to also focus on getting those who choose to own only long guns to a match.

[bigsaxdog]

"ahh, excellent idea mr. bond....."(trying to do the james bond thing, but it's not really working here...) anyways, from the uspsa standpoint, the rifle and shotgun classifications sounds like the best thing since sliced bread! you get that started, and just watch the clamor to reach GM shotgun or rifle. i really gotta say, in all this USPSA/outlaw blah, blah, blah that's going on, that's the best idea that i've heard yet......

[M ammo]

Rifle only matches would be great.

I started pistol at SWPL. Then started to attend rifle only matches at Bakersfield. Then started 3 Gun at the CA 3 Gun Series.

I have shot just Rifle matches. And just shotgun. They were still shot with Action/ Practical competition rules. So in my mind it still falls into the 3 Gun Arena.

They are fun matches. And not to run rough on Pistol competition ( I too came out of that world, it was the only game in town)

One gun Competitions other than Pistol….Rifle and Shotgun are great ways to grow the 3 Gun Sport.

As for the labor part of running a match. In the beginning I did most of it. And the RO’s thank God for every one of them came and ran the squads. Our club now has a group of folks that can do range work and set up on week days. And they set up a day or two before the match. This did not happen over night. But they are the corp of the club They make every match run smooth. Some times it is well interesting, to shoot at other clubs, It really makes me appreciate home, even more than I already do.

[LChico]

How about offering shotgun classifications and rifle classifications. We have plenty of pistol shooters who have one or both in the closet and just need the excuse to bring them to the range and that is already happening. But until we offer classifications we are doing nothing to attract the shooters who have either a rifle or a shotgun or both at home but do not have a pistol to shoot a match. Just as we can get pistol shooters excited about shooting long guns, we need to also focus on getting those who choose to own only long guns to a match.

Since only USPSA is set up to calculate classifications, this would only apply to USPSA matches. I don't think classifications attract new shooters, but rather help you retain some existing shooters. New shooters start for the 'fun' factor. That is true whether it is pistol only, rifle only, shotgun only, or a mixture of the three. After a while, they may get to the point where they don't appreciate the top-to-bottom ranking, because it is difficult to see if they are progressing. The "middle of the pack" shooters have an easier time tracking their progress with classifications (They can be 1st C or 2nd C as opposed to shooter # 115 or #112). Also, as bigsaxdog pointed out, some shooters will use the classification system to push for improvement. That's all the good stuff.

For the outlaw or non-USPSA matches, I hope it never happens. This is simply my opinion, but I think classifications within classes (or divisions) would irrevocably change the 'character' of the 3 gun matches as they exist now:

Many 3 gunners love to fact that they are among the few remaining hold-outs for "walk the prize table in order of finish" (Steel Challenge being the other that comes to mind). When you add classes, there will inevitably be a time when classes are recognized rather than order of finish.

One of the things I have found refreshingly absent from 3 gun matches is the idea of sandbagging. There is no way to add classifications without introducing this to 3 gun. Because the sponsors of 3 gun matches are VERY generous, I suspect that sandbagging would be a much bigger problem in 3 gun than in pistol matches.

Holding classifier matches or adding classifier stages to matches will require a uniformity and standards for set-up in order to have any validity. Most outlaw matches prefer to demonstrate creativity and choice in stage design. And that contributes to the 'fun' factor.

Calculating classifier scores, sending in classifier information, keeping track of classifiers and classifications, as well as tracking active membership are all added paperwork and administrative duties. And there is the cost associated with that work.

If USPSA wants to set up a system to calculate classifications for long guns, they have a large amount of work ahead of them. And, given the fact that they have a national office staff that could assist with paperwork & calculations, this may be a logical step for them. I'd just hate to see it outside of USPSA multigun.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[bigbrowndog]

I agree with Linda, WHY???? would you need classifications to draw new shooters.

One of the best things, in my opinion about non-uspsa ( I hate outlaw, because they were first) matches is that it is heads up. it MAY, be that that is the reason non-uspsa matches fill so quickly compared to uspsa matches.

back to topic, make it FUN, INEXPENSIVE, EASY TO UNDERSTAND, AND FOLLOW, and you should get people to come and come back.

trapr

[ccur]

I invited a 'new' guy to shoot the BRM3-G with Rod and I ....he came from the Precision/Tactical matches. I loaned him a scope and some equipment, linked him to a ton of web sites (especially this one) where he could get good, basic info about 3-gun and he was hooked.

Sometimes the way to get people to shoot is to take them with you and loan them equipment and give them knowledge BEFORE they get to the match so they are comfortable when they get there. He now owns his own equip and is going to shoot DPMS!!

my $.02

cheryl

[bigbrowndog]

if this guys name is Jared, you can leave him at home next time!!!!!!!!!!!

That is one of the things I see quite a bit Cheryl, people willing to loan gear out for new shooters, the trouble is its normally at the range and the person has already decided that they JUST want to watch. getting in touch with them before hand, or inviting them out is the trick.

You can also go shoot other type matches yourself and meet new people and invite them to ccome try your sport.

trapr

[TRUBL]

I would also agree with Linda.....don't go there with classifications....ever. Probably the worst thing I've ever seen.

I've been to countless nationals.....always got beat by sand baggers.....and the prizes I pulled off the table (not that I go for them, NEVER amounted to squat). I've gotten more valuable prizes from IMGA

I never really cared anyways if I was 1st B or 2nd A or what ever.....what I always cared about was......how good did I do against the top guy. And then the next year I had a bench mark....can I beat last years percentage.

At least for now....the IMGA prize tables kick so much more than others.....i would not change a thing. Sure some do random, some do grab brags...personally, I've been burned by grab bags and have also done well. I've also picked way down on a table once because I wanted the really cool shooting mat.

seems to me.....we are on the right track here.....about time for the thread to be closed again

no trapr... it was not Jared, but he can stay home for sure. It was someone else.....so you can bet the currents are doing a lot to promote the sport. And I'll lettin him use equipment at the DPMS match coming up too!!

[Charles Bond]

The problem with 3 Gun is that eveyone is doing their own thing. They have no central organization, magazine, safety program, range officer program, website or are they capable of having one. (Notice I did not say a word about rules) While some of you may not find USPSA endearing, it is the only real organization in the shooting sports. In terms of numbers, staff, safety, and do not forget that it is the only action shooting sport where the members elect the leadership, it is without peer.

Linda, I am a tad amazed that you are so quick to dismiss USPSA given the time you have invested in the the organization and your intense interest you displayed last year. USPSA is certainly not without its shortcomings but for those shooters who have a gripe, it is the only organization that has a method of addressing the complaints directly.

I certainly agree that classifications keep members shooting but based on my experience, the classification system attracts a number of shooters and gives them a method to achieve a level of ability that is nationally recognized. Going to a bunch of matches will do that as well only IF you win the match. For the rest of us who do not place in the top ten, there is no way to judge how we are performing vs. our friend in Texas or cousin in Oregon or sister in Maine unless there is a classification system.

Sandbagging? I have heard tons of stories but I have never seen anyone win a class that did not deserve to win it. Most of the time I hear about "sandbagging" from someone who shot out of class who came in second in reference to a shooter who also shot out of his class who came in first. And if the match continues to have shooters walk the prize tables in order of finish, that is allowed since who wins the class only determines who gets the class trophy. The MD is free to set up the prize table in any way they desire including raffling of prizes which has always been a method endorsed my many matches.

Would it be worth the posters here joining USPSA to get a long gun classification? That would be up to the individuals to decide. Since most of those who post here are already USPSA members, that decision has already been made. But let's face it, you are not going to get an M card or GM card otherwise. I am certain that my the time the sun rises tomorrow that everyone who truly does not care whether they have a classification card will have told me so. But after the 10 or more of you who chime in to tell me that have posted, that will leave about 24,980 active shooters who have not so stated.

Edited July 6, 2008 by Charles Bond

[Benelli Chick]

If there are classifiers for rifle and shotgun, how do you decide your class for USPSA multi-gun matches? Highest one wins? Who decides?

I find classifiers to be rather boring and unfun. I would hate to have to shoot more of them because now I need to be classified in 3 guns.

Linda is right about cost and organization. It becomes a very complicated thing. I know that USPSA has great office staff and is improving the system all the time, but it's still a lot of work.

I think all those suggestions about individual shooters and clubs talking up 3-Gun and helping people get interested are the way to go. Our interest is growing here in Colorado all the time. I announce something about 3-Gun at almost every pistol match. I talk to women and men. 6 or so of the Rocky Mountain RO's, my husband and I got into 3-gun, and they are getting better and better. It's more fun than pistol, more equipment, but that tells you how much fun it is that I'm willing to cart all this stuff around. It's shooters that help it grow! If you add side matches and .22 matches and all those excellent ideas, that's a way to introduce people. Lending guns is great, but it's from the shooters, not from the big organizations in the sky!

To help 3-Gun grow, it's got to be about the people and the fun!

[Charles Bond]

If there are classifiers for rifle and shotgun, how do you decide your class for USPSA multi-gun matches? Highest one wins? Who decides?

You do. You get to decide this and other rules since you have a vote and it speaks to the organization through your area director. Have you ever received a ballot from any other action shooting organization?

I find classifiers to be rather boring and unfun. I would hate to have to shoot more of them because now I need to be classified in 3 guns.

I agree that classifiers are not as fun as some other stages but if you have noticed, even that is changing within USPSA. As to your comment about you would "hate to shoot more", that is not what I hear from my shooters in the southeast. Most want to shoot more and over 70% of those polled at the 2008 USPSA Area 6 Championship want long gun classifications.

Linda is right about cost and organization. It becomes a very complicated thing. I know that USPSA has great office staff and is improving the system all the time, but it's still a lot of work.

It is only expensive and complicated if you try to start from scratch. USPSA has the ability to create classifications in long gun using the existing program. The organization that can best do this is USPSA but it would seem that most who post here lately do not like their 3 gun rules. Given that it is easier for USPSA to change the rules based on imput from the membership who elects the leadership than it is for the rest of the 3 gun community to create an organizaiton, why is this such a hard decision? Before anyone responds with the idea of a 3Gun Confederation, explain when any confederaton has ever worked.

I think all those suggestions about individual shooters and clubs talking up 3-Gun and helping people get interested are the way to go. Our interest is growing here in Colorado all the time. I announce something about 3-Gun at almost every pistol match. I talk to women and men. 6 or so of the Rocky Mountain RO's, my husband and I got into 3-gun, and they are getting better and better. It's more fun than pistol, more equipment, but that tells you how much fun it is that I'm willing to cart all this stuff around. It's shooters that help it grow! If you add side matches and .22 matches and all those excellent ideas, that's a way to introduce people. Lending guns is great, but it's from the shooters, not from the big organizations in the sky!

To help 3-Gun grow, it's got to be about the people and the fun!

And you are certainly preaching to the choir with this comment. Would it not be nice that a shooter in NJ or Kanas also knew about the match? Would it not be a good thing that you had another 3 Gun match local to you where you could show up and shoot? Shooters do help us grow but unless and until we have more matches distributed over the US, we are not going to reach many shooters who would participate given the opportunity to drive to the match.

[Benelli Chick]

Our local USPSA website has all our local 3-Gun matches listed with links to websites etc.

I can't tell you how many times shooters from Texas, New Mexico and other states contact us if they're coming here for vacation so they can shoot a match while they're here!

It seems to work really well for us, and there's a link to it from USPSA website.

Again, you just have to get supportive people willing to help ALL shooting sports!

[JThompson]

If there are classifiers for rifle and shotgun, how do you decide your class for USPSA multi-gun matches? Highest one wins? Who decides?

I find classifiers to be rather boring and unfun. I would hate to have to shoot more of them because now I need to be classified in 3 guns.

Linda is right about cost and organization. It becomes a very complicated thing. I know that USPSA has great office staff and is improving the system all the time, but it's still a lot of work.

I think all those suggestions about individual shooters and clubs talking up 3-Gun and helping people get interested are the way to go. Our interest is growing here in Colorado all the time. I announce something about 3-Gun at almost every pistol match. I talk to women and men. 6 or so of the Rocky Mountain RO's, my husband and I got into 3-gun, and they are getting better and better. It's more fun than pistol, more equipment, but that tells you how much fun it is that I'm willing to cart all this stuff around. It's shooters that help it grow! If you add side matches and .22 matches and all those excellent ideas, that's a way to introduce people. Lending guns is great, but it's from the shooters, not from the big organizations in the sky!

To help 3-Gun grow, it's got to be about the people and the fun!

What BC said.... though I can't afford 3-gun anyway.

Edited July 7, 2008 by JThompson

[Benelli Chick]

Oh yeah! When you take a woman or a junior out for their first time shooting a shotgun, be sure they've got reduced recoil slugs, and light load shot!

I have two women pistol shooters that will probably never shoot 3-Gun, because their first experience with a shotgun was not well planned and it knocked them on their A__, I mean butt!

[M ammo]

I have thought about classifications. And how to do it.

I left it alone. It is too much. It makes the rules book grow and the Poo house Lawyer factor high. Too many rules hurts the fun factor.

Not to hurt any feelings,,, write the stage instructions well. For that stage. You don’t have to set precedence for the whole sport. You can work out most problems with well thought out stage instructions.

One governing body? Good luck. The so called Outlaw matches do just fine. Without one and as long as the rules are fair. They keep coming and bringing friends.

Not to be too hypocritical as long as the USPSA 3 Gun Nationals is within driving distance I’ll shoot that match. It is the only USPSA match I shoot all year.

I like the Free Magazine!!

I know from my experience that when shooters know they do not have to join something. They will just come and shoot. If they like it, they will join. But they don’t want the hard sell. We do this for fun. On our days off, we are not going for the free weekend at the timeshare to get locked in a room for 3 hours for the hard sell.

Loaning equipment. I have done this many times, usually loan the rifle. They have a pistol and a shotgun. But are saving up for a rifle. This is not a problem. Good factory ammo and they are ready to go.

[bigsaxdog]

the classifier idea is interesting, but.....it works for pistol, it would work for shotgun, but for rifle? back to the argument of long range targets, and having the ability to zero at 200, 300, 400+...... as i have seen it, USPSA would turn rifle into a long barreled open pistol. short range, CQB style targets are cool, but so is the long stuff.....if your home range doesn't have these capabilities, then the classifiers would be skewed, you dig? keep up the discussion, this could be the future of 3-Gun.......