Why five minutes?

[G-ManBart]

I've seen stages where it took almost five minutes to figure out which targets can be seen from more than one position....like having to put a ball cap on a target and then go check from more than one port/position to see how many places it's visible from. Then do the same thing for another target, etc. The last Area-2 had two stages I can think of off the top of my head like that. If you're burning up your five minutes doing that, you're not going to come up with a plan in time.

How the heck is putting a ball cap on a target during the walkthrough legal?

I haven't heard any discussion on whether it was legal or not, but I've seen it done....it wasn't left there, of course and I wasn't the one who thought of it/did it. You could also have someone stand by the target and then get other people to look from the various positions to determine if it's the same target you're seeing more than once or not. I know stage #1 at the '07 Area 2 was quite difficult in this regard....you could see some targets from three or four different positions and it was really confusing until you got someone to stand next to a target while you went from position to position.

Personally, I don't like stages that are set up in this fashion, but that's just an opinion. R,

[9x21]

I think 5 minutes is fine, but RO's need to let only the on deck shooter on the range soon as range is clear. That also includes the RO's staying out of the way, so the next shooter can finalize his plan.

If you're finalizing your plan when you're on deck, you're already toast...that's the point I'm trying to make.

If you need more than 5 minutes + "on deck time"

you need to shoot bullseye.(you will know the course years in advance)

Toast, maybe............

I like Jiff on my toast. (some folks like Skippy)

Edited June 11, 2008 by 9x21

[Johann the Horrible]

This probably sounds like sour grapes but until you have worked a couple of Nationals as an RO you won't appreciate the amount of time taken by some shooters after the (Load &) Make Ready command. These are the same shooters who have used the full 5 minutes making mock runs several ways then spend 3 minutes air gunning the stage from the start position. An example, facing up range @ MR has to do a practice draw then simulates each of the shots on the stage sometimes twice before loading the gun and assuming the start position. This is usually the squad that causes the following squad to back up. Then add in some range equipment failure and you really have a backup.

I am not saying the shooters shouldn't be allowed the prep time at the start position but I have been known to ask AYR as they are still moving their hands between the start position and the gun.

I have noticed exactly the same thing. Competitors go through their "pre-shoot routine forever before they are ready. They should do their "exercises" before stepping on the line. Maybe we should limit them and take the time saved there and make the "Conga Line" time longer. I feel that a shooter should receive not more that 1 minute in time from the time that he is called out to LAMR(we all know in what order we are going to shoot, and no than 1 minute from LAMR to Standby.

[yuthh]

3 minute with 17 shooters in one squard. That what I've heard in Word-Shoot in Bali.

[JFlowers]

I have worked with ROs who after a shooter fussed and fretted a while at the Load and Make Ready basically said (very loudly) "If you are not ready, step off the line and let the next shooter go". Seemed to resolve the issue.

Working a lot of matches, I think many of the opinions here are correct. If we gave the squad 10 minutes, complaints that its not enough would still surface.

[BayouSlide]

Why 5 minutes? Part of the game......part of the pressure...keeps the match moving....rewards those who can puzzle through a stage quicker...or if they can't figure it out, forces the A/M shooters to slow down to our C pace so they can execute it without crashing and burning

[matt2ace]

A slight drift on the thread here but as a lefty working against the "conga line" I would vote that the 5 min be divided as 2 min for right handed shooters and 3 for lefties. We get the extra minute because we already have the handicap of shooting all those RH friendly stages.

Just kidding, but I do wish there was a way to work those walkthroughs on stages where we lefties are going the opposite way. It was a pretty awkward on a couple stages this weekend. Everyone in my squad was great but it really just doesn't work well at all with people heading in opposite directions. When I was far enough down the order I would run through it after a couple other shooters rather than tape/brass/set steel. Not a great solution, but I think it interfered with other shooters the least.

+1

I have no objection to the 5 minute rule. Allowing the lead-off and on-deck shooters to walk-through first should be part of the process (IMHO).

However, when your running your walk-through 'upstream' against all those righties, it can be pretty tough.

You do learn to live with it as part of the challenge.

[smokshwn]

Isn't that part of the challenge in this game? I've shot plenty of stages where I couldn't figure out the best plan in five minutes; and plenty of others where I saw the plan almost instantly, while others in my crew were still struggling.....

Exactly. Sometimes you just have to stop looking at every possible way to shoot a stage, pick a plan and go for it.

Somebody once said "A good plan executed with aggression today will always beat a perfect plan executed tomorrow"

[Dale Rader]

I heard an RO once say "Don't over think it; it is just paper and steel. Find it and shoot it". That works very well until the RO scoring you gives you a FTE for the target you didn't find and shoot...yes, it has happened.

Dale

[ninefan]

Am I the only one who thinks that the walk-through time should depend on the size of the squad?

With 8-9 people 5 minutes is usually sufficient, but when the squads are into the 13-17 person range 5 minutes is rarely sufficient on larger stages.

[XRe]

For matches that choose to not allow inspection of the stages by competitors during match/stage downtime, I could definitely see allowing a longer walk through time. Especially if there's anything less than straightforward (memory stages, mover intensive stages, stages with many strategy possibilities, etc).

However, for most matches - those that allow stage inspection - I don't see a reason to add 30-90 minutes to the course of just shooting the match. 5 minutes is more than enough to confirm and get comfortable with a strategy already established. It even allows time to inspect a couple of different strategies to settle on a plan, and run that a time or two before the 5 minute period ends. If you want more than 5 minutes on the stage, plan accordingly and be on the range at a time when you can inspect the stages. With large squads, the squad usually needs to have some etiquette about it, but it still works...

[Carlos]

3 minute with 17 shooters in one squard. That what I've heard in Word-Shoot in Bali.

I do not allow walk throughs due to time constraints at our indoor match. I am obligated to run 10 shooters through 4 stages in under 1 hour. Walk throughs are simply NOT an option. Stage descriptions are followed by a call for first shooter to step to the line (I do ask for volunteers for 1st shooter though).

[Storm52]

Here is a novel idea. You have the stage designs prior to even registering, in most instances. Make copies of them. The are also posted at the match. Eliminate the 5 minute walk through. Everyone has the same plan, shoot and score the best you are able.

2¢

[TMC]

Do away with "memory" stages. What do they prove? that the stage designer can make targets hard to keep track of in a field of barrels, no shoots and what-not. If I want to play where's Waldo I'll buy the books.

[Alwaystryin]

I think some blind stages ( no walkthrough allowed) should be put into matches.

Hang a tarp across the front of the stage and the shooter has to step in to L&MR.

Sometimes it looks like the old Monty Python show "silly walks" episode.

[Flexmoney]

I think some blind stages ( no walkthrough allowed) should be put into matches.

Hang a tarp across the front of the stage and the shooter has to step in to L&MR.

Sometimes it looks like the old Monty Python show "silly walks" episode.

Those don't work. (we've had threads on that, specifically, if you'd like to look one up to continue that conversation)

[JThompson]

I did a quick search and didn't find anything (weak search-foo, I'm sure) which surprised me. Why are we stuck on the five minute time period for walkthroughs? I know there are often chances to check out stages the day prior etc, but that doesn't always work out. On typical field courses five minutes is often enough, but just barely so and it really depends on the size of the squad. On memory stages, it's usually not even close to enough. If you're shooting near the end, you can walk through while to paste targets and get a better plan, time to rehearse it, but if you're up early in the order you're hosed.

Why not make it ten minutes? Sure, it would make the match marginally longer, but even in a one day format you're not usually shooting more than nine or ten stages in a day. Sometimes you won't need all ten minutes and can start early, so it's probably only going to add 30 minutes or so to a match. Thoughts?

Define marginally longer?

5 minutes x 10 stages = nearly an extra hour. (that is an extra 2.5 hrs for your RO's over a multi day match)

In my CRO experience, shooters will use up all the time available to them...unless it is an extra simple stage.

How about we get rid of the memory stages.

Memory stages suck!!! Usually the shooting is easy it's just trying to remember where shit is at. I despise them.

[Nik Habicht]

Here is a novel idea. You have the stage designs prior to even registering, in most instances. Make copies of them. The are also posted at the match. Eliminate the 5 minute walk through. Everyone has the same plan, shoot and score the best you are able.

2¢

That would only work if the diagrams exactly matched the stage build, and if they were available as three dimensional drawings or videos.....

IIRC, Topton once did that for some of the stages in an Area 8 Championship --- and that was awesome.....

Other than that, trying to make a stage plan off the diagram is a waste of time.....

[GentlemanJim]

I did a quick search and didn't find anything (weak search-foo, I'm sure) which surprised me. Why are we stuck on the five minute time period for walkthroughs? I know there are often chances to check out stages the day prior etc, but that doesn't always work out. On typical field courses five minutes is often enough, but just barely so and it really depends on the size of the squad. On memory stages, it's usually not even close to enough. If you're shooting near the end, you can walk through while to paste targets and get a better plan, time to rehearse it, but if you're up early in the order you're hosed.

Why not make it ten minutes? Sure, it would make the match marginally longer, but even in a one day format you're not usually shooting more than nine or ten stages in a day. Sometimes you won't need all ten minutes and can start early, so it's probably only going to add 30 minutes or so to a match. Thoughts?

Define marginally longer?

5 minutes x 10 stages = nearly an extra hour. (that is an extra 2.5 hrs for your RO's over a multi day match)

In my CRO experience, shooters will use up all the time available to them...unless it is an extra simple stage.

How about we get rid of the memory stages.

Memory stages suck!!! Usually the shooting is easy it's just trying to remember where shit is at. I despise them.

There was something I had to say about memory stages.....but I forgot

Jim

[IL-SIG]

I would be in favor of a one minute time-limit after the "make ready" command. As a matter of fact 30 seconds should be sufficient. If you can't draw, insert a mag, return the gun to the holster in 30 seconds - then the "shooter is NOT ready"

[TISCHLJ]

I did a quick search and didn't find anything (weak search-foo, I'm sure) which surprised me. Why are we stuck on the five minute time period for walkthroughs? I know there are often chances to check out stages the day prior etc, but that doesn't always work out. On typical field courses five minutes is often enough, but just barely so and it really depends on the size of the squad. On memory stages, it's usually not even close to enough. If you're shooting near the end, you can walk through while to paste targets and get a better plan, time to rehearse it, but if you're up early in the order you're hosed.

Why not make it ten minutes? Sure, it would make the match marginally longer, but even in a one day format you're not usually shooting more than nine or ten stages in a day. Sometimes you won't need all ten minutes and can start early, so it's probably only going to add 30 minutes or so to a match. Thoughts?

Ahem! the less rounds you gots , the more figgerin' you needs! Most times anyway-

[Lanzo]

I think that 5 min. is enough "if" everybody gets the same amount of time.

Being one to have some trouble with memory stages I have focused on different

ways to memorize quickly.

I think its part of the "game" and its fine the way it is. Its just another skill that needs to be developed...

+1.

Deciding how you shoot is part of the game. It's a skill that needs to be developed along with everything else. If you're a GM your going to see things much differently then a C. That should be obvious. Perfect example would be the 09 Area 6 stage Don't Blink. I watched Michel double tap the steel on his draw to make it activate everything faster (Tomasie went first and didn't double tap the steel. Most everyone after him double tapped the steel after they saw how long Tomasie had to wait for the last target to activate). I would have NEVER thought of that, but now that I saw it it's in my bag of tricks. I shot it the same way. More time = more hassle. This is competition. If you don't feel like you have enough time then you need to develop the skill. A lot of stages follow patterns and the more you shoot the more you see patterns.

Why don't we just give everyone all the time they want to get ready? If you say 5, some people will want 10. If you say 10, some people will want 15. It would never end. Seems like everything is about entitlement these days.

Develop the skill. It's part of the sport. If you don't want to do that, maybe you should set up targets yourself and just shoot around at your own pace.

Not meant to offend anyone....just my observation. USPSA/IPSC/IDPA is competetive shooting...not T-Ball.

--Lanzo

[Tacblack]

Throw out the "memory" stages and 5 minutes usually works fine.

Now the killer for me is 14+ person squads and 5 minutes on field courses you have to walk though to fine all targets a couple times, your still screwed. When squads were 8 people way back when sure 5 minutes was fine.

Another out of norm issue. Area 6 memory stage and massive squad. The first in line to walk through just HAD to check a low port for one wide open target 15ft away and gun flopped out on the ground. We had 40 seconds to look over the stage. Why does the whole squad have to suffer cause one dropped his gun, my match was done and have never gone back to Area 6 since.

Move the time up on big squads or limit size to a number that can walk through in 5 minutes.

[VegasOPM]

I always figured that it was part of the game. Just like everything else, the more I practice, the easier it gets.

[DMS42]

And I'll add something else to all this. Do not allow members from another squad to do walk throughs. At the 2007 Nationals there were several stages that we had members from another squad doing a walkthrough with us. No, they were not shoot throughs. On one stage I was to be the 1st shooter and some guy that wasn't on our squad kept getting in front of me.