Can RO see all?

[Boris Zaretsky]

I've posted this topic on USPSA RO forum. But I think I would post it here too to reach more people for discussion

Can RO see all?

Time and time again I get into disputes with competitors that try to persuade me that I could not possible see what happened because I must concentrate my vision only on the gun.

Here are some examples:

1. I gave a shooter FTE procedural because he did not even point the gun in the direction of the target to shoot. He did make a number of shots to the other target. He asked me to check the timer which I, of course, don't see as a prove of shooting at that target. Then a proverbial complain that I should be looking only the gun and could not possible see where he was shooting.

2. The shooter runs into the box, steps on the fault line and breaks the shot while touching the ground outside gaining a procedural penalty from me. Again the same try, and again the same way. That is, I could not possible see his foot because I have to watch the gun. Of course one can argue that scoring RO should watch all the steps-over or any other RO on that matter. But if a time running RO can see it himself, he just might be a good RO from whom no fault can escape. Anything wrong with that?

3. A wonderful stage - plate rack obstructed by the barrels and, of course some other paper targets. You can see some plates (and paper targets) only from one specific position and not other. Barrels are declared as soft cover. And it is for obvious reason. If the bullet passes the barrel and knocks down the plate, it scores as a hit. But....

A shooter did not position himself to a place from which only one plate could be seen and, therefore, did not engage it from there. He shot at other plates from other position and made more shots than needed. The argument was how do I know that the shooter did not engage that plate? May be he was shooting at it through the barrel (soft cover, remember?). In my book that would be a million dollar trick if one can shoot the plate from 30+ feet through a barrel without seeing it. Hmmm…. Well, Robert DeNero or Will Smith can do it. I saw them doing it in the movie....

I've been ROing for a long, long time and have enough experience to see all.

Some analogy:

There are only two hokey referees that have to watch ten players at a time and they manage to do so pretty well. No one would tell them that they must watch the pack only, and hence, they could not and should not possibly see that Billy smacked Johnnie with the high stick. Therefore Billy should not get 2 minutes penalty on the bench. Does this hold the water? Why then in our sport some competitors doubt RO's and argue what and how he must do his job and what he should and should not see?

P.S. If those barrels were made of thin air?! .... Neah…

[AikiDale]

Tell the complainers if their eyes were as good as the RO's they would be better shooters.

[UW Mitch]

I'm a new RO, and I'm focusing on the gun and the trigger finger. In RO class they said let the RO running paper worry about FTEs and fault procedurals. I'm sure with time I'll start to be able to pick up on more but for now it's "safety first". Aspire to be like some of the more senior/experienced ROs who really to seem to see 'everything'. I guess it's a Zen thing.

~Mitch

[Singlestack]

. But if a time running RO can see it himself, he just might be a good RO from whom no fault can escape. Anything wrong with that?

[Boris Zaretsky]

Well, good for you, Mitch.

I'd recommend every shooter to get an RO class. It would mace them to better understand the rules and make them safer in our game.

In RO class they said let the RO running paper worry about FTEs and fault procedurals.

Unfortunately RO running paper often... runs paper. He is not there to watch foot-faults and FTE. He usually counts alphas and mikes and runs after the last shooter to get his initials while you, stage RO, run another shooter. What I want to say is that there are circumstances when you get no help and yet you must be able to make quick decision with no doubt in your mind in order to be fair to the shooter in your immediate control as well as all other shooters competing against him. That comes with years, mistakes and successes. I call it experience.

I wish you, the new Range Officer, all the best in life.

[Boris Zaretsky]

. But if a time running RO can see it himself, he just might be a good RO from whom no fault can escape. Anything wrong with that?

Thank you, John. It is the best reply yet. I had a lot of lough. You've made my day.

[JThompson]

Well, good for you, Mitch.

I'd recommend every shooter to get an RO class. It would mace them to better understand the rules and make them safer in our game.

In RO class they said let the RO running paper worry about FTEs and fault procedurals.

Unfortunately RO running paper often... runs paper. He is not there to watch foot-faults and FTE. He usually counts alphas and mikes and runs after the last shooter to get his initials while you, stage RO, run another shooter. What I want to say is that there are circumstances when you get no help and yet you must be able to make quick decision with no doubt in your mind in order to be fair to the shooter in your immediate control as well as all other shooters competing against him. That comes with years, mistakes and successes. I call it experience.

I wish you, the new Range Officer, all the best in life.

The clip board RO should be the one watching for foot faults and the like... you primary responsibility is the gun. If you can do more that's good for you, but if anything untoward happens, I'll take the guy that's glued to the gun. What is the clipbaord RO doing during the COF? He has nothing else to do during that time... let him/her worry about feet, unless two of you aren't in position to see... you will know that ahead of time when analyzing the stage.

[larry cazes]

I don't argue anymore on the line. Just refer them to the MD if they have a problem with your call. Your job is to run shooters through the COF safely and efficiently and to enforce the rules the best you can. The MD gets to sort out the arbs and the complainers. I used to let this kind of thing bother me. I don't give it a second thought now

Edited May 17, 2008 by larry cazes

[Boris Zaretsky]

What is the clipbaord RO doing during the COF? He has nothing else to do during that time...

What about scoring while the shooting is still going on. You see more and more of that in WSB.

"Scoring will begin while shooting.... The shooter may delegate RO supervision authority to other shooter..." etc. And clip-board RO begins to score and paying no attention to the shooter. Haven't you seen that before? Happened a lot of times. Such is reality of life.

you primary responsibility is the gun.

I would like to respectfully disagree with this statement. The primary responsibility of RO is safety of all things around. If RO narrows his concentration into the gun, he may miss something that might put others and shooter himself in danger. Fallen prop, for example. Again, it is always good if RO gets assistance from a Clip-board RO. But time-running RO is a safety authority for all while running the stage. If RO develops a habit to get "glued" to the gun, he develops bad habit of missing things around.

There are good shooters and bad shooters; good fathers and bad fathers, good drivers and bad drivers, good RO's and bad RO's I'd rather take with good experienced RO than the one that sees only the gun and misses another shooter advancing into the range before "Range is clear" command. My point that RO should train himself to see all.

[Johann the Horrible]

Let them take their bitching and moaning to the MD and let the rest of the 99.999% of us carry on with our safe and enjoyable sport. A-Holes like that detracts from our shooting pleasure.

[Crusher]

Can RO see all?

In a word, YES those who "observe" most certainly can and they "hear" s#!+ too (like bad mag seating and the like). I have run also across a few that can't see/hear squat and just perorm the task of "mobile timer platform" too

[FranDoc]

What about scoring while the shooting is still going on. You see more and more of that in WSB.

"Scoring will begin while shooting.... The shooter may delegate RO supervision authority to other shooter..." etc.

A bit off the 'RO' primary topic of this thread, but I think this deserves comment.

I have no objection to SCORING behind me. I would prefer that the targets not be PASTED until I see them. Even if the hit is Alpha - and especially if it's not - I need to know where the shot hit vs. where I called it.

I appreciate that courtesy, even if walk-behind scoring is done in the name of efficiency. And, yes, I'm an RO.

[/drift off]

[Joe4d]

" IVE GOT THE CONCH" !! That's a line from Lord of the Rings. The boys have a rule whoever is holding the conch everyone else has to shut up and listen. This could translate to , "I have the timer". My point being as an RO safety is your concern but you do notice things and do the best you can to enforce the rules. But do not ever lower your self to arguing. Nor ever allow arguing to change your decision unless you see clear new evidence. State the penalty listen to a single statement. Smile and nod and ask for the next shooter.

[Gary Stevens]

I see this reference to the MD all the time. What does the MD have to do with rules and penalties?

[Joe4d]

I see this reference to the MD all the time. What does the MD have to do with rules and penalties?

You are absolutely correct. The Match director doesnt have anything to do with it. The Match director would convene a commitee but not issue a ruling.

However in most US club matches a single person is usually acting as "Chief range officer, Range master, and match director. The three hatted person is usually called "match director" so the references you are seeing to MD are actually refering to the official acting as Chief range officer.By rule a disagreement with the ruling of an RO is to be refered to the chief range officer for a ruling, then to the Range master, and if competitor still disagrees to the Match director who convenes an Arbitration committee. Reference 11.1 USPSA Jan 2008

[wide45]

The best explanation I've read was something like;

As an RO, you see what you see, and you call what you see. If you are sure of what you saw, make the call.

I forgot who wrote it, be nice to give them credit.

You can't see everything. Some competitors will not receive every penalty they earned. That does not mean you don't give the proper penalty when you do see something.

1. I gave a shooter FTE procedural because he did not even point the gun in the direction of the target to shoot. He did make a number of shots to the other target. He asked me to check the timer which I, of course, don't see as a prove of shooting at that target. Then a proverbial complain that I should be looking only the gun and could not possible see where he was shooting.

2. The shooter runs into the box, steps on the fault line and breaks the shot while touching the ground outside gaining a procedural penalty from me. Again the same try, and again the same way. That is, I could not possible see his foot because I have to watch the gun. Of course one can argue that scoring RO should watch all the steps-over or any other RO on that matter. But if a time running RO can see it himself, he just might be a good RO from whom no fault can escape. Anything wrong with that?

3. A wonderful stage - plate rack obstructed by the barrels and, of course some other paper targets. You can see some plates (and paper targets) only from one specific position and not other. Barrels are declared as soft cover. And it is for obvious reason. If the bullet passes the barrel and knocks down the plate, it scores as a hit. But....

A shooter did not position himself to a place from which only one plate could be seen and, therefore, did not engage it from there. He shot at other plates from other position and made more shots than needed. The argument was how do I know that the shooter did not engage that plate? May be he was shooting at it through the barrel (soft cover, remember?). In my book that would be a million dollar trick if one can shoot the plate from 30+ feet through a barrel without seeing it. Hmmm…. Well, Robert DeNero or Will Smith can do it. I saw them doing it in the movie....

1. and 2. you got it right. You saw what happened, you made the call. Good man.

Number three.... sure, it was very unlikely that the competitor shot at the plate that was hidden, but you have to call what you see. Did you see that he did not shoot any shots at that plate? You sure? That's what your call is based on.

Edited May 17, 2008 by wide45

[shred]

Ask the shooter how they can shoot and move at the same time. The answer will be some variation of "I can do two things at once". The reply is "so can the RO".

[kevin c]

Scenario #1 came up in a recent CRO class as a specific example. Bottom line, the officiating RO saw what happened. The shooter does not get the benefit of the doubt if there isn't any. Same applies to #2.

And yes, the RO can do more than one thing at a time; safety may be his primary responsibility, but is not the only then he can or is doing.

Watching the gun does not mean you have tunnel vision.

[uscbigdawg]

Second to what Kevin said above. As a seasoned RO (I'm not saying I'm great) you can fully be able to watch when a shooter engages and does not engage a target as well as watch foot faults and still safely monitor the gun and the shooters' movements. Arguments like count the shots on the timer do not work, 'cause the timers don't always count the shots. The timer reacts to contact (concussion) and so anything that hits the timer (watch, bracelet, e.g.) can click an extra recording. In the end, it's your call. Complaints go higher. Same for foot faults.

Basically, what AikiDale said. If they are so quick with the excuses, they'd probably have be better shooters.

Rich

[Boris Zaretsky]

My point being as an RO safety is your concern but you do notice things and do the best you can to enforce the rules. But do not ever lower your self to arguing. Nor ever allow arguing to change your decision unless you see clear new evidence. State the penalty listen to a single statement. Smile and nod and ask for the next shooter.

Excellent point for any RO.

100%... No, 110% agree with you!

[Boris Zaretsky]

Number three.... sure, it was very unlikely that the competitor shot at the plate that was hidden, but you have to call what you see. Did you see that he did not shoot any shots at that plate? You sure? That's what your call is based on.

Yes, I am sure and that WAS my call. The point is that the other shooter asked me, How can I be sure that the shooter did not engage the plate when he made a nuber of shots from the other position and may made some shots at the target through the soft-cover-barrel when you actually should be concentrating on the shooter's gun, not where he shoots. (sorry for long sentence). In short it means that the RO should not pay attention to where the shooter shoots but only on the gun in his hands. I totally disagree with that premise and made a call upon what I saw.

Thanks a lot for your attention to this thred.

[dcbfluff]

Boris-

I'm fairly new to this game, but try to help out as much as I can. Because of this, I am often I am in the role of "Paper RO": keeping score, tracking/announcing who is up next, looking for foot faults, etc. Mostly, however, as scorekeeper, I am in the role of supporting the RO- the person with the timer, the person that is not just looking at the gun, but controlling the shooter. I have had the the opportunity to stand behind a lot of different RO's, and believe that the best of them are not just watching the gun, but are seeing the shooter. I fully agree with you that the RO can, and probably should, be seeing more than just the gun, and also observe the shooter (we all focus on front sights, but still need to see the target, right?).

dan

[Boris Zaretsky]

Scenario #1 came up in a recent CRO class as a specific example. Bottom line, the officiating RO saw what happened. The shooter does not get the benefit of the doubt if there isn't any. Same applies to #2.

And yes, the RO can do more than one thing at a time; safety may be his primary responsibility, but is not the only then he can or is doing.

Watching the gun does not mean you have tunnel vision.

Good post and very good points. But you've just said the words I despice.

the benefit of the doubt

Oh boy, oh boy!. Yet another stone in my shoe. I've heard this "benefit of the doubt" thing soooooo many times. RO, for one, must not make a call if he has a doubt. He can summon RM, if appropriate, to help him out. But if he makes a call he should be pretty darn sure ther are no doubts.

But wait! I witnessed an RM overwriting CRO by giving the shooter double on obviously one hole on the target. This hole was checked and re-checked with overlays many times (by the shooter’s request). The reason RM stated: if you had to check the hole so many times, you had a doubt. "The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter"

Well, RM's are human too. RM made the shooter immediately in front of him a very happy man and hurt all other shooters competing against this one. And those other shooters didn't even know about it. Did I give some food for thoughtd?

What I want to say is "the Benefit of the Doubt" is a very dangerous thing, or very wrong to say the least. Make no doubt about it.

[Boris Zaretsky]

Boris-

I'm fairly new to this game, but try to help out as much as I can. Because of this, I am often I am in the role of "Paper RO": keeping score, tracking/announcing who is up next, looking for foot faults, etc. Mostly, however, as scorekeeper, I am in the role of supporting the RO- the person with the timer, the person that is not just looking at the gun, but controlling the shooter. I have had the the opportunity to stand behind a lot of different RO's, and believe that the best of them are not just watching the gun, but are seeing the shooter. I fully agree with you that the RO can, and probably should, be seeing more than just the gun, and also observe the shooter (we all focus on front sights, but still need to see the target, right?).

dan

Congrats! You've just joined the best sport in the world! This is a volunteer sport and helping in any capacity is absolutely great thing to do. Imagine a ten-people squad and everyone gives 10% efforts to run the stage. It means that everyone need 90% less to work to make things running well. Thanks again for your help. I wish you fun in this sport and best of luck in your achievements.

[Coach]

Just call what you see and what you know to be the case, and do it consistently. If someone bitches about a FTF they should put at least one hole in the paper, or knock down the plate and then the call is plain and obvious. If there are not any holes in the paper, or the steel is still standing it is the shooters fault, take your lumps without whining. No RO can give you a FTE unless you let them.