Jeeper Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I hate it when you go to the range to plink or whatever and people start bashing the shooting sports even thought they have never tried them. This whole "Shooting IPSC will get you killed" mentality is such a bunch of crap. I just want to slap these people around. Whenever I hear this I always ask them what they do to practice their gunhandling. I ask how often they practice drawing, reloading, clearing jams and so forth. From what I've seen most people that bitch about this do nothing more than shoot slow fire groups at 10-25 yards maybe once a month. I can tell you that if I was about to get mugged and could pick who was standing next to me it would be a USPSA GM(who had a gun of course). I dont really see it at the range I shoot at now but I did a couple years ago. Does this "anti-IPSC/IDPA" mentality piss everyone else off also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Yep, the local shooting supply store/range has a really bad attitude concerning IPSC. I constantly get told that shooting IPSC will "ruin your shooting skills". This came back up just yesterday when I went in for the first time since Area 4. I told them that Area 4 was a little more accuracy intensive than I was used to and I didn't do so well. They immediately took this as evidence that our local matches are ruining our shooting skills. If I wasn't shooting in local matches, I probably wouldn't be shooting. Local matches keep me shooting and keep my skills up because they make shooting more fun. I'm not really looking at IPSC as preparation for mortal combat but I'm with Jeeper and if I have to choose, give me the guy with a thousand rounds through the pipe already this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 The chuck taylor class i took 2 years ago preached ipsc was very bad ,in fact,"There have been documented casses of police officers going into surrender(or other ipsc type positions)position if they felt they were about to draw their gun " Since this was the beginning of my shooting experence i tried ipsc and my head did'nt explode Then i notice a few cops in the ipsc crowd ,they got a giggle out of this claim. point of fact last year i got stuck up while wearing my gun ,they got $20,i did'nt have a chance to draw and they never knew i had a gun Funny..........i was'nt waiting for an ro to say load and make ready or to hear a beep. One of these chuck taylor groupies works at an indoor range i should record an mp3 of the humorous babble he spouts It stops being funny when he is talking to people who don't know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Better believe I'd rather have a USPSA GM beside me in a gunfight than 1/2 the police force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Inter-discipline mutual bashing is common with all shooting sports in Australia. It is sad that competitors seem to be unwilling to accept that all disciplines have skills and that a choice of discipline is purely a matter of personal preference. If all shooters could refrain from sniping at each other we might present a more united front to the media and the anti-gunners who delight in bashing all shooting disciplines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 I'll take it a step further and say I'd rather have a B Class Ltd shooter than half the police force if I had the choice. I very easily classified CDP Sharpshooter my first time out after shooting IPSC for a while, so yes you can easily classify high with little practice. The IDPA classifier is so simple, anyone with minimal skill can do it, yet alot an experienced IPSC shooter. There are 2 gun stores here in town and they both bash IPSC and IDPA, I think mainly because of their ignorance of the sport, they might be humbled if they ever saw a match. I had to sit through a local CCW class which was taught by a police officer, I bit my tounge everytime he got to talking about how good a shooter he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 I believe the anti-competitor mentality, especially against IPSC, by non-competitors is compensation for a deep seated inferiority complex. Let's face it, IPSC shooters are the elite of "combat" handgun shooters. It's been pointed out that a C class IPSC shooter is, in the overall scheme of things, a pretty awesome pistolero. Years ago, I had a girlfriend who was also a serious gun nut. We'd both attended multiple, fairly high-level classes at various shooting schools. So we're having this conversation, and she's telling me what a great shooter I am. And I said, "No. I'm competent, but I'm not great. Not compared to the best. I've seen IPSC shooters who make me look like a stumblebum." And she said, "Duane, you can't compare yourself to those guys. Do you have any idea how much they shoot?" And that was the moment when I said to myself, "If IPSC shooters are such absolute gun gods....I wanna be one of those guys!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 The IDPA classifier is so simple, anyone with minimal skill can do it, yet alot an experienced IPSC shooter. Well, let's not get crazy. Anyone with minimal skill might be able to "do" the IDPA classifier, but it requires a decent level of skill to do it well. I've heard the statement, "Any IPSC A-class shooter should be able to shoot Master on the IDPA classifier." I must be the exception that proves the rule. I'm an A-class IPSC shooter, and I haven't shot Master on the IDPA classifier. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 There are 2 gun stores here in town and they both bash IPSC and IDPA, I think mainly because of their ignorance of the sport, they might be humbled if they ever saw a match. Most of the bashing is, IMHO, the outcome of fear of failure. "If I never have to compete, I'll never lose, therefore I'm a winner. So, I'll concoct some elaborate shrine of crap to worship that negates success via objective talent." I have to frankly admit, I worshipped at others' shrines before I built my own and worshipped it. My shrine of ignorance finally collapsed under its own weight and I feel much better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Hmm.. I need some way to replay my greatest hits postings... anyway. Somehow on our way from being kids to grown-up, we get a "fear of looking bad" thrust upon us by society in general. Some get it worse than others, and that's what may keep many of them away from the competition circuit. "I might get embarrassed on the range, I can't do that, therefore I won't shoot matches". I don't know what the answer to that is.. Maybe it's all tied up in our personalities and temprament-types. Brian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 I am but a lowly Marksman in Custom Defensive Pistol in IDPA! And I am C-class in both Limited and Limited-10. Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Rhino can you spel sandbagger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 (EricW)"I might get embarrassed on the range, I can't do that, therefore I won't shoot matches". I don't know what the answer to that is.. Maybe it's all tied up in our personalities and temprament-types. We have to suck it up, stand tall, and carry on... if we expect to gradually reach our goals. And it's "tied up in" our conditioning. The "fear of looking bad" (and I've got THIS disease BIG-time) is real and causes pain, but we have to transcend it and realize that most of us either WENT through this to get good or ARE GOING through this and it's just a part of both growing up and of getting better at something. No risks, no winnings. We've placed a high value on winning, therefore 'failure' is felt as a terrible loss. But let's get real. It's both illusory and only temporary. With the very next target you could redeem the heck out of yourself and go home fat 'n happy. Good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 What's really a shame is that fact that gunstores could be one of our sports greatest allies and visa versa, but many choose not to be. If I had a gun store, I would do everything I could to cater to shooters, not just competitive shooters, but shooters of ALL disciplines, but I guess it's a different story when money is involved. The internet has really made the life of many gunstore owners tough because the shooter now has hundreds of dealers to buy a gun from. Nowadays, instead of the gunstores selling a gun to a shooter, alot of times, they only do a transfer for a gun you bought from someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Rhinocan you spel sandbagger? Who? Me? No! Not me! Actually, it works out pretty well for local matches. Most of the course of fire require a lot of movement and getting on the ground and such, so with all of the extra time I take for that, my overall scores are usually at the bottom of the CDP shooters. I do a little better when it's about actual shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedshooter Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 I have been competing in IPSC for 10 years or so and just recently began to teach a concealed carry class. The thing that most surprised me was the skewed perception of the average person's shooting ability I had gotten by hanging around IPSC shooters all those years. It has really been eye opening and a kind of frightening to see how little skill the average gun owner has. Part of the shooting exercise for my class consists of 4 strings of 6 shots fired from 25 feet at a treasury target (a little bigger than an IPSC target) starting from a low ready. Each string has a 10 second par time. I get a fair number of complaints that the exercise is too difficult and every class there are several shooters who really struggle with it. To show them how much they really suck and that they should consider getting some additional training and a lot more practice I do a little demonstration after they are finished in which I start from a holster and shoot the entire 24 round exercise in one ten second string, reloading every 6 shots. After that they usually listen a lot closer to what I have to say the rest of the class. I apologize in advance if this strays too far from this forum's focus on competitive shooting, but for what I consider the final word on the value of competition honed skills in the "real world" I offer the following quote from Massad Ayoob: "Some advisors say competition training will get you killed on the street. My research shows the exact opposite: those who have fired in the psychogenically-stressed heat of competition tend as a rule to do far better when the real gunfight comes later. Don't trust the theories of those who often have never shot in a match or in a fight. The documentable reality of the street is that shooting under match pressure off-duty makes you shoot better under deadly pressure for real." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Very well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 Speedshooter, I agree with everything you wrote. I remember when I took both my ccw and renewal ccw clases. The shooting ability of the people in the class was horrible. It really amazed me that these people were going to actually carry gun with the little skill that they had. I look at carrying a gun as huge responsibility. I cant imagine carrying and not knowing how to shoot well. In addition the quote from Masaad is dead on the money. Every competitive shooter has had jams that they have had to clear in a match. It really teaches you not to freak out when something happens because you have already dealt with it. I definatley agree with the posts that everyone here did. I do think that the majority of the people that bitch about IPSC shooting and such are just really afraid about how they would stack up in a competition. It is always easier to sit back and do nothing than to find out how good you really are. I remember when I first got my ccw I was shooting sihlouette and was pretty damn good. I wanted to do more with practical or tactical shooting so I decided to go to Gunsite training academy. Of the 12 people in my class I was by far the best shooter(not to pat myself on my back). The others ranged from military to police instructers. I remember that we shot an El Prez drill and I had the best time of like 8 or 9 seconds. After I came back from Gunsite I decided to go shoot USPSA for the first time. I thought I was hot stuff after my domination at Gunsite. Then I went to my first USPSA match. It was in Tucson and if I remember correctly Jack Barnes shot at it(I think). Man did I eat some humble pie after that match. It made me realize the quality of shooters that are in USPSA. I can understand why people are afraid to shoot in matches. Of course everyone is so helpful and nice that besides the blow to your ego it is really fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I usually let the "IPSC will get you killed" nonsense roll off of my back, but lately the false dichotomoy between competition shooting skills and defensive shooting skills is starting to get to me. I have a friend whom I met in a defensive shooting class who happens to be an instructor for one of the fairly well known "names" in defensive training circles. The problem is that he (they) just can't stop with the "that's okay for competition, but it won't work in the street" when talking about shooting skills. I'm not talking about so-called tactics, but rather basic marksmanship and gun manipulation. I'm tired of people creating this illogical chasm between shooting in practical shooting sports and shooting for defense. How many ways are there to align the sights, get a sight picture, press the trigger, and follow through? Why is it that if you dare to "slap" the trigger, you're doomed to death because somehow allowing your finger to leave contact with the trigger while allowing it to reset is somehow wrong. Apparently it doesn't matter if the rounds go where you want them to go and a lot faster than the tactical tommy ... if you don't ride the trigger the way blahblah says it has to be done, you're a dead man! Apparently the way Todd Jarrett and TGO shoot is ... wrong! Apparently since they developed their skills in (gasp!) competition, they can't do the same thing in their bedroom at 2 in the morning when some maniac enters their house with murderous intent. Do these people not realize that 99.999% of the shooting and gun manipulations they advocate as dogma was developed in practical shooting competition? Their psychological marriage to 1970s shooting techniques somehow prevents their minds from accepting that some other ways may work just as well if not better. What the hell is their problem with someone else being able to shoot more accurately and faster than they do? Is it envy? Is it the "not invented here" syndrome? Where do they think what they teach came from originally? Why is it that thousands of us have released our slides using the slide release on a 1911 literally thousands of times each ... yet somehow "in the street" it's not going to ever work? What is it about "the street" that prevents a gun from going into battery if you don't drop the slide by slingshotting? (I'm not talking about that extra fraction of an inch of slide travel and spring tension). There is apparently some kind of "in the street" voodoo that prevents a slide from going into battery if one dares press downward on that deceiptfully checkered lever! ARGH! ARGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I have never understood the reason behind a gun owner not wanting to try any form of competition. If you have a couple dollars and hours to spare why not give something new a try? I sort of think that some people expect to have to measure up to higher skilled shooters. You don't have to do a damn thing but shoot. Nobody cares. Wouldn't you like to meet some new people and see what they can do with a handgun (or shotgun,rifle)? You like guns and shooting don't you? It beats reading magazines even if you have a bad day. If competition makes you too fast you can always just spend a week or so reading gun magazines to get back into tactical mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I'm tired of people creating this illogical chasm between shooting in practical shooting sports and shooting for defense. How many ways are there to align the sights, get a sight picture, press the trigger, and follow through? Wow! What Rhino said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 The analogy that has stuck with me is: "If you were drowning and you had two choices of people that could rescue you, would you pick Joe Blow, or the world class swimmer?" Actually I think B.E. said that somewhere??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 In Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals. As near as I can remember the quote, it went, "If you were standing on the banks of a raging river watching a little girl being swept downstream, would you want to have the skills of an Olympic swimmer?" Meaning of course that in a real-life defensive emergency, would you want to have superb gun handling and marksmanship skills honed in competition - or not? I recounted this quote to a friend of mine and he said, "Actually, if you're standing on the banks of a raging river watching a little girl being swept downstream, the person who's going to stand the best chance of rescuing her is the one who's been trained to rescue little girls from raging rivers." Meaning that in a gunfight the person who stands the best chance of survival is the one who's been trained to survive a gunfight. However, as I pointed out to him, "If were to take that concept to its logical conclusion, we would have to conclude that if you were standing on the banks of a raging river watching a little girl being swept downstream, you're going to have the absolute best chance of rescuing her if you've been trained to rescue little girls from raging rivers AND you have the skills of an Olympic swimmer." Meaning the person best able to survive a gunfight is going to be the one with good tactical skills and a high level of fast, sure gunhandling and marksmanship proficiency. And the best place to learn and regularly practice the latter is....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Those who can do, those who can't complain about those who can, just the way it is. I just don't care to waste my time debating them. If they want to make a point they have to prove it on the range, and I've never met a tacabily who can. The last one who thought he was da' shiet couldn't even get his gun out of the holster before I had shot both our targets and reholstered my gun.I never heard for that guy again. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Actually, this may be the "motivation" I need to get me to practice and start making progress toward my actual potential. I realize that motivation should come from inside, but if it gets me started on the path, I'm not going to complain. I'm good enough to silence most tactibillies with a little side by demo. I need to be good enough to silence just about any tactibilly I meet. This may also save me from future a** kickings (in terms of motivational speeches) by BigDave and KimberKid. The ironic thing is, I am primarily interested in the defensive aspects of shooting. I just recognize the many benefits of practical shooting competition and what it can do to improve certain elements of the toolbox of skills anyone needs for proper personal defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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