Colt's grip on military rifle criticized

[timamal]

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Apr20/0,4...GunWars,00.html

I just think there is better combat rifles for the military Its just my say on the subject

What do you guys think

[ChrisStock]

I carried and used an M16A1, an A2, and finally, an AR-15 that had been converted to full auto. I distinctly dislike gas impingement systems in rifles...dirty dirty dirty. Everyone carried a cleaning toothbrush, a rag in a ziplock, and the ubiquitous mini bottle of break-free. The sand flew like flour in a blender, and it found a way into every nook and cranny regardless of the dust cover being closed. That sand, mixed with the carbon, would drag a BCG into a non-functioning state right fast. Sometimes it took two men to get the charging handle out to get the BCG free.

I didn't have anything to compare it to at the time.. I thought this was the norm for that harsh of an environment. A quick PM before going outside the camp, and immediately upon returning. Hell, we had 1911's if it got close and ugly... I rode with mine under my thigh, as it would have never gotten clear of the holster in time when riding in a vehicle. I had 100% confidence in the backup, at any rate.

Other than that, I liked my rifles.... I could hit everything I needed to, as long as I PMed the old girl twice a day. I never had a failure when it would have been the worst, but then again, I did everything I had to do to keep it running.

Just $.02 from someone who carried them for years in nasty places, FWIW.

ETA:

If there's something better that the men carrying them now can use and get along with, roll it out, and let's see how it handles the environment in that corner of the globe. I'm all for change if it helps get the job done.

Edited April 22, 2008 by ChrisStock

[Joe4d]

If there is something better I agree with Chris. I'm not and the Army isnt convinced there is something better. There have been rifles in continues test and development for about 20 years and the AR 15 platform keeps coming out on top. People look at one situation and see something a little better and think there is a conspiracy to give our troops crappy weapons. But that rifle has to work in the jungle, swamp, artic, as well as the sand. You also have a situation where the only people at war are the soldiers, the rest of the country doesnt give a crap. Cut taxes cut taxes cut taxes, but oh let the Governemnt pay my kids college and let the gov bail me out of my ripoff mortgage I was stupid enough to sign. And oh hey look at that our soldiers are getting screwed with an old rifle.

[uscbigdawg]

Well...2 years in a row of carrying an M-4 and that combined with shooting thousands of rounds for 3-Gun, may or may not make me bias, but I'll say that there really isn't anything "better" persay. Maybe 'as good'. As for dirty, eh...that's a possible flaw, but in my mind and experience, the weak link in the chain are the mags. Period. My M-4 in A-Stan in particular ran like a champ with basic cleaning (translation: Bore Snake and Brake Cleaner; lubed with anything I could find). The piston driven systems are frankly (to me) a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Maintenance, is still maintenance and done poorly, it doesn't matter what you run.

Rich

[GentlemanJim]

Wet lube...any kind of oil ..is not the best way to lube an AR in a very dusty or sandy environment.

Dry graphite or moly spray...and no dust sticks..it just gets blown off

Jim

[SA Friday]

Well...2 years in a row of carrying an M-4 and that combined with shooting thousands of rounds for 3-Gun, may or may not make me bias, but I'll say that there really isn't anything "better" persay. Maybe 'as good'. As for dirty, eh...that's a possible flaw, but in my mind and experience, the weak link in the chain are the mags. Period. My M-4 in A-Stan in particular ran like a champ with basic cleaning (translation: Bore Snake and Brake Cleaner; lubed with anything I could find). The piston driven systems are frankly (to me) a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Maintenance, is still maintenance and done poorly, it doesn't matter what you run.

Rich

Used M-16 A1's to the current M-4's. I also have shot a lot of AK's an other misc assault weapons. I can see the piston system be an advantage for cleanliness and less field cleaning. All the other factors are really pretty even. I absolutely have to agree with bigdawg, the std issue mag leaves a lot to be desired. Interestingly enough, I think some units are figuring the out. I will deploy very soon, and was issued 8 P-Mags instead of the std issue mags. I just about passed out from the shock of such a smart change made by my military org.

In the end, the gun saavy soldiers, marines, airmen, etc will have their guns in working order. The ones that are not gun saavy will have issues. It's really that simple short of a mechanical/metalurgical failure of some kind. I prefer the piston system, but it doesn't matter for me.

[Chills1994]

That latest news report linked to above coupled with a CBS news segment on the alleged ineffectiveness of the 5.56 mm round has me thinking that there is some "ground swell" (momentum?) for a new rifle in a more powerful caliber.

For the record, I did not click on that link above.

On another forum, I was slammed for posting up pics/graphs of defense contractors' stock prices since we invaded Iraq. No surprise that they have all gone up substantially, but I don't really know if that is so much different than say roofing contractors who come in to neighborhoods/subdivisions after a hail storm or tornado like winds. Yeah, they make a fast buck. Are they gouging the homeowners? Maybe. Are us American taxpayers getting gouged by contractor's like Colt? I have a feeling Congressional/Senatorial hearings will convene for just that reason (war profiteering) before the last of our troops get back home.

At one time Derek45 and I had chit chatted about AR's and he said that Colt had experimented with direct piston AR's in like the 60's or 70's and they supposedly found no difference in performance / failure rates vs. the direct impingement AR's.

There has been a "Murphy's Law of Combat" thing floating around for years. It has little pearls of wisdom such as : "tracers work both ways", and "just remember your equipment was made by the lowest bidder."

That's the catch right there. Yes, there might be better rifles in more power calibers out there right now, but how do they price out compared to the A2 and the M4?

Methinks also that the Pentagon is all ga-ga eyed over high tech gadgets and high-zoot platforms. Think off all the Osprey's and F-22's and Predator drones they can buy if they stick with the AR.

It could all just be media hype, especially in an election year, with two war fronts going on.

Anywhooo... IBTL

LOL!

[Religious Shooter]

I don't know if the guy in the article is full of shjt or not... but

Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

I'm not familiar of the SCAR... but I would take a HK416 with it's cool HK magazines over an M4 with Colt mags. Especially since it costs the same.

I think that's the rub. I don't know if those fjckers are telling the truth when they say it costs the same. Too many lies are floating around.

[Mark K]

20 years in the Army, all with various versions of the M-16.

Like all things, there are better and there are worse out there. The M-16/M-4 are very effective, and easy to maintain. In a pinch you can grab parts from 10 different ones and make one whole gun. Special Ops - well they are Special, and sometimes they have different requirements for weapons.

You can be sure that if we went to the FN, there would be those that complained that we were giving our troops a foreign made weapon instead of one made in the gold old USA.

Mark K.

[el pres]

At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

If thats what they are really paying for them in bulk, then they are getting hosed. Maybe they could open up the

contracts to like Rock River and DPMS and the cost would spiral. I bet they could even get P-mags cheaper then

what they probably pay now !!

Edited April 22, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[caspian guy]

Not sure I'd want a 416. But the HK AR mags that were developed for them are all good.

Peter

FY-39604

[Theo Carter]

First the M-4 that the military buys cost about half that amount. We use HK mags along other kinds of mags and they all have there good and bad points. As far as maintenance goes if you give the military a rifle that they know they have to clean less and they are going to neglect the rifle all together. And as for changing the caliber, chances are that is not going to happen because it's a money thing not only do you have to change the rifle but the mags and gear to support that rifle not to mention the M249 SAW. If anything they will eventually use 77gr bullets across the board instead of the 62gr bullet and that would be more logical.

[CDRODA396]

I spent 20 years in the Army....I carried an M16A1 in Grenada, and an M16A2 in Panama and Desert Shield/Storm with the 82nd Airborne, and I carried an M4A1 in Afghanistan for three rotations and Iraq for one rotation with Special Forces before a back injury sat me on the sidelines and I retired. I also carried an M4 all over the continent of Africa for years in some terrain that rivals the harshness of southern/eastern Afghanistan but of a different sort.

In all that time, in all those environments, dusty, damp, rainy, high altitude, I never had a problem with a well maintained weapon, blanks or live ammo, and a well maintained weapon is a by-product of a well disciplined unit and a direct reflection of the involvement of the chain of command. My weapon, and my soldiers' weapons were always ready to fight, even the M60 machine guns made in the 60's in my rifle platoon in the 82nd before the Army went to the M240's, and they were old and tired, but lovingly cared for and ran. I still shoot a stock Colt M4 with 14.5" barrel in the few 3 gun matches around here I can find and it runs and runs and runs.

The Transportation Unit convoy that was made famous when they were ambushed when they took a wrong turn and a bunch of them were taken prisoners and it was highlighted that one guy was taking the fight to the enemy until his gun jammed....I would bet my house that just like MOST of the "Rear" units at that time in the conflict hadn't touched their weapons since they arrived in country, or did the weekly wipe down before wrapping it back up from buttstock to muzzle in a ruck sack cover or some such, and the first time he had fired it in theater, maybe that year, was when he found himself in contact...sad, but I would bet on it big time. Today there isnt a truck drive or mechanic in the Army that doesnt realize if you roll out of the wire you better be ready to rock, there are no "by's" for the Support Guys.

If you let a tired Joe go to bed before maintaining his weapon he will, but it's the leader's fault. I would NOT trust any of the proposed alternatives with my life, without maintaining it to the same degree I maintained my M4, just doesnt make sense.

It is a combination of the early heritage of the weapon when it did suffer from "issues", coupled with those willing to "parrot" what they heard someone else say, lumped in with stories like the convoy ambush above that perpetuate the myth that the current M16/4 is plagued with problems. No weapon is the perfect solution, none.

Are there better things out there....hmmm, I currently work at a place that has been scheduled to recieve a set number of the SCAR L and SCAR H for Low Rate Initial Production User Evaluation since before I started working here in September of '06. Many manufacturers forward handbuilt custom guns for testing, evaluation and down select, once selected the LRIP are guns produced on the actual assembly line to prove they actually work. Every time we are due to get the LRIP guns, something else breaks and has to be fixed...then someone else will conduct a user evaluation and something else breaks, someone from FN may jump on here and throw the BS flag, and have a good excuse, but folding buttstocks breaking and collapsing while firing, selector switches being so large that a firer inadvertantly switches from semi to auto during recoil, and on and on are facts. It may be a fine weapon, it remains to be seen by the unit that I work for....we are still waiting.

416...might be better, but has had its share of problems as well, generally those with them are quiet about them becuase of all the stink raised when the article on the front page of the Army Times broke....one element has had to turn theirs in as part of the fall out from all the publicity....but it has had its own problems, like bolts breaking when fired with a suppressor,.

IN MY OPINION, right now there simply is not a quantom leap in technology/reliabilty, its the Chevy v. Ford, Steel v. Polymer arguement, everyone thinks their opinion is right, but who really is?

I don't know if the guy in the article is full of shjt or not... but

Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

I'm not familiar of the SCAR... but I would take a HK416 with it's cool HK magazines over an M4 with Colt mags. Especially since it costs the same.

I think that's the rub. I don't know if those fjckers are telling the truth when they say it costs the same. Too many lies are floating around.

I think he is FOS. I had 82 M4A1's on my company property book, valued at well under $1000 ea, well under. I often commented when signing my books that I wished I could pick a couple up at Uncle Sam's discounted price. The property book office right next door is closed right now or I'd confirm it, but I somehow doubt that the price has gone up three times in the past two years. I'll let you know.

By the way, did anyone else read the notice that the Iraqi Army IS going to the M16/M4? Hmmm.....

So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles - a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines. Another 50,000 rifles are currently on order, and the objective is to outfit the entire Iraqi army with 165,000 American rifles in a one-for-one replacement of the AK-47.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,162878,00.html

[JKSNIPER]

I have a buddy with that Army unit that does not officially exist......

Hes deployed to one of the garden spots of the world now but when hes home here he works for companies doing the training thing and attends schools himself.

He related to me that he attended a school where they "Shot a lot" and he used the H&K 416.

He had heard a lot about its supposed ruggedness and so he set out to see for himself.

He purposedly did not clean or maintain it in any way while at the school and I do not recall hom many rounds he fired during it but I remember being shocked at the amount especially when he told me that the weapon did not jam or fail to function properly at all during the school.

His rating of it was that it is superior to current US Army issue weapons.

Thats from a US Army S.F. combat veteran and not my opinion (SGT USMC 78-82 )

I fought the war on boredom ........and lost. (lol)

JK

[CDRODA396]

He purposedly did not clean or maintain it in any way while at the school and I do not recall hom many rounds he fired during it but I remember being shocked at the amount especially when he told me that the weapon did not jam or fail to function properly at all during the school.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet he didnt do that the next time he took it downrange!

[Duane Thomas]

"BCG"?

[ChrisStock]

"BCG"?

Bolt Carrier Group

As far as dry lube.....well....all we had was break free. Sometimes you just have to make do with what you have

Edited April 23, 2008 by ChrisStock

[Duane Thomas]

Ah. Thanks muchly.

[mpolans]

I think the HK 416 looks pretty spiffy.

Edited April 23, 2008 by mpolans

[EricW]

Did the rifle salesman happen to be wearing a white belt and plaid pants by any chance?

[JakeMartens]

At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

If thats what they are really paying for them in bulk, then they are getting hosed. Maybe they could open up the

contracts to like Rock River and DPMS and the cost would spiral. I bet they could even get P-mags cheaper then

what they probably pay now !!

I got to agree here, at $1500 for an M4, that is about $700 over what you can go and buy one for yourself, not selective fire of course, but that shouldn't cost more for the gov.

I don't have a problem with a company making a profit, and I am sure that there are other things with this contract that include parts per rifle etc, but that seems very high.

Sure there maybe something equal or better, but what all the senators and congressmen want is the end all be all gun and round that does everything anywhere at anytime without any problems.

That reminds of the the phrase:

"you can sh*t in one hand and want in another"

you know what you end up with, wanting to get the sh*t off you hand.

Edited April 23, 2008 by fortyfiveshooter

[Theo Carter]

Like I said before we do not pay $1500 for our M4's and I know that for a fact.

[Scooter]

Unfortunately, the government standards are different than what you and I have. I work for a company that gets a lot of defense contracts and they are all a major PITA. The reason everything for the government cost more especially military specific stuff, is all the CYA (Cover Your Ass) stuff. Everything has to have a paper trail. Even the ink that is used to stamp the part number on the part must have a paper trail stating who made it, when it was made, which batch was it made on, what was used to make it, when it expires, and often times an independant test report of the ink.

Even a plain old zip tie where you can buy 1,000 for $10, $0.01 each, will cost you about $0.25 for the military spec version. Is it any different than the one you buy at the store, probably not. But the one from the store can't be traced back to who made it, when it was made, who they got the plastic from, well you get the idea.

[EricW]

Heed Theo's words. Weapons contracts are fiercely competitive, and a major sales tool in winning big contracts is seeding the media with dis-, mis-, or partial information.

[kframe_mike]

Let me throw this out here.Any semi/full auto is only going to be as good as the ammo its fed right?I wonder if Uncle Suger is on top of all the new clean burn powder and primer technology?It could only make a gas gun better having super clean ammo I would imagine.-Mike