Daughter wants to compete - .22LR Can she?

[JThompson]

This is good stuff and WOULD help build the sport. It would also bring in people who couldn't afford the sport otherwise. I know a lot of people that don't do half as many matches because of the cost. I've talked with some who are thinking of giving it up because of the costs. It very costly for a family to shoot... if they could shoot .22 we can get a lot more people intrested.

[JFlowers]

The following is not MY opinion, just rehashing of older arguments.... One of the perceived problems with starting a .22 or Airsoft Division is that many people seem to think it would open the door for those who vehemently oppose our sport to say "See all you need is a .22/Airsoft/BB gun and we can get rid of those big nasty guns". Maybe thats true, but its not like they are not going to try any avenue anyway.

Personally, I think a 22 Division with a restrictve ruleset would be a great addition to the sport. Level I only, deal with steel issues, etc ... put some thought into rather than just saying that okay today its legal. This would allow easier access, lower costs for shooters to bring friends, family, nonshooters, etc. Or maybe just put together a simple ruleset and publish it as a "Guide to Allowing 22s at the Club Level" and not make it an offical division, but make the support of a local MD allowing 22s plain.

Perhaps, a way to approach this is to utilize the experience we have here. Open a new thread and publish a set of rules in it. Let the community beat it about, then present it to the BOD for consideration as either a provisional division or a local club guide.

I think the Ruger 22/45 is a great gun to start shooters with. Simple, elegant, and the controls are in the right place. The Beretta U22 is a really cool gun but the controls are a bit different from a full size gun.

[Lexor40cal]

My daughter just turned 12. She's quite small (20th percentile for height & weight) but she loves shooting. She wants to shoot "better than Dad", which is great to hear. But can she with a Ruger Mk III? Or a Browning Buckmark? When I look at the USPSA rule book, it looks like she must shoot a 9mm. But a 9mm for her is a bit much at this point in her size / comfort level.

Help for this eager young girl! Many thanks.

We spoke at this at our weekly local indoor match last night, and club president is more than happy to welcome junior shooters using .22, any form of encouragement should be taken when it comes to getting new shooters into our sport, or even if it only to be able to allow a shooter to bring his siblings along so he/she can participate, rather than stay home and babysit.

We will be posting the .22 shooter scores on our local web site, scored along with everyone else, but will not push data up to USPSA when uploading scores.

I am sure all of our local monthly match venues will allow the same, they are a very friendly bunch down here in Atlanta/Georgia areas.

[Lexor40cal]

The following is not MY opinion, just rehashing of older arguments.... One of the perceived problems with starting a .22 or Airsoft Division is that many people seem to think it would open the door for those who vehemently oppose our sport to say "See all you need is a .22/Airsoft/BB gun and we can get rid of those big nasty guns". Maybe thats true, but its not like they are not going to try any avenue anyway.

Personally, I think a 22 Division with a restrictve ruleset would be a great addition to the sport. Level I only, deal with steel issues, etc ... put some thought into rather than just saying that okay today its legal. This would allow easier access, lower costs for shooters to bring friends, family, nonshooters, etc. Or maybe just put together a simple ruleset and publish it as a "Guide to Allowing 22s at the Club Level" and not make it an offical division, but make the support of a local MD allowing 22s plain.

Perhaps, a way to approach this is to utilize the experience we have here. Open a new thread and publish a set of rules in it. Let the community beat it about, then present it to the BOD for consideration as either a provisional division or a local club guide.

I think the Ruger 22/45 is a great gun to start shooters with. Simple, elegant, and the controls are in the right place. The Beretta U22 is a really cool gun but the controls are a bit different from a full size gun.

In regards to steel, all that has to be done is make sure the steel is painted prior to the .22 shooters run, and score it like you would at a Steel Match, any visable hit, even on the edge. USPSA owns Steel Challenge now, so that ruling part is already covered, it just needs to be plagiarized.

I think if a rule set is discussed here and sent up to BOD, they would want to rewrite it any way, so why not task them with it in the first place, you know they will want to control it any way!

I also think the only limiting factor here should be age/physical size, this should be limited to pre-juniors age/physical size, it should be just a division without classification, a training division if you like

[JFlowers]

Well, we have hijacked the thread already.... but if the admins want to move this discusson please feel free to do so.

Lexor40cal, the problem with restricting the shooter age/size is that it limits my/your/Ted's/Bob's/etc ability to bring non-shooting male/female/adult friends who can shoot the match with my/your/etc 22, have a great time, and get hooked. Thats why I think it would be better to limit it to a non-reported score (ie classifiers don't count), Level I only thing, not a age/size thing. But hey, that why we discuss!

Plus, a more open ruleset allows you or I to pull out our 22 and shoot because we have no ammo loaded, money is tight and I have no components, maybe I just wanna have fun, any one of hundreds of reasons.

So personally, I would just rather look at rules that make a 22 safe and fun rather than rulkes defining who.

As for the BOD, I'm not knocking the job they do, but how many times over how many years has this issue come up and been discussed and gone no where. I was just thinking if we took it and ran with it, it would show the BOD that it was a serious issue for the membership and they might take the prelim work we had done under serious consideration.

[ofcrfs242]

JFlowers

I think you have the right idea. Many times i have seen ideas proposed that were rejected simply because the powers to be did not feel that those proposing them had the initiative to make it work. If you/we the members take the time and propse some rules along with it it goes to show that an effort is being taken to make it work. Not just that we think it is a good idea. And if they want to rewrite them great the biggest obstacle will have already been overcome.

I personally believe that it is a great idea and would attract a lot of shooters of all ages and skill range.

[John Heiter]

I think a .22 "beginner" division would do more to grow the sport (USPSA) than single stack or steel challenge will and it would be a great way to teach safe gun handling. I think we've been missing the boat on that for a long time.

One of the popular ones around here for kids is the Walther P22. Ambi safety and mag release, 10 rnd mags, DA/SA, and interchangeable back grip panels. It seems to work really well and w/ some high velocity ammo can be made to knock down properly set full size poppers.

Please do bring your daughter out. She SHOULD be welcome at any local match you take her to. If she isn't, please let us know because it means there's a MD somewhere that needs to be educated.

John

[tightloop]

Rather see .22 than Airsoft....Uhgggggg...

[jdavionic]

First off, let me say that if you are concerned about thread hijacking from the perspective of the original poster (me)...please don't be. I appreciate all of the feedback and the thread has evolved to a useful discussion that is beneficial for the sport. If creating a new thread is helpful for further discussion, that's fine. However the mods shouldn't feel the need to create one for my benefit.

As another member noted, this topic was discussed at our local match and they were very receptive & supportive of the idea. When I got home, I told my daughter that I had good news and that, if she wanted to, she could compete with a .22LR pistol and that there was another person with a 12 yr old son that was interested. She just smiled and said "oh, I'll beat him"...very amusing when you hear it coming from this small girl. Point being, it appears in just the small sample in this thread that we could generate more participation in the sport by allowing younger, responsible kids an opportunity to participate.

To help with an example, here's my rough plan for my daughter. I'll go with her to a range and rent & borrow a couple of types of handguns to help determine which one she is most comfortable. I'm looking at the Ruger Mk III and Browning Buckmark, but I'd appreciate any other suggestions. Somewhere along the line of this activity, I want her to come & watch a few matches. When we purchase a gun & accessories, I plan on teaching her the basics (reinforce the safe handling points that she has already been taught, teach her the RO commands, procedures, etc). Then when she appears to be ready and she agrees that she's ready, we'll give it shot.

[EricBudd]

JFlowers

I think you have the right idea. Many times i have seen ideas proposed that were rejected simply because the powers to be did not feel that those proposing them had the initiative to make it work. If you/we the members take the time and propse some rules along with it it goes to show that an effort is being taken to make it work. Not just that we think it is a good idea. And if they want to rewrite them great the biggest obstacle will have already been overcome.

I personally believe that it is a great idea and would attract a lot of shooters of all ages and skill range.

Of course, the other options is to work to come up with 'standard' rules and adopt them on a club by club basis. If USPSA doesn't like it, so what. It won't be an official division, shooters won't be classified and clubs don't have to send in activity fees. All USPSA can do is not reaffiliate us and stop taking our money.

I think a 22 division for level 1 (club) matches is great. We all have 22's around for new shooters and the cost is right. I have a couple of Jr. shooters that were interested but the cost of ammo (for the parents) was just too high on top of match fees and gear. I sent them to the local Steel Challange like league to get started with the .22's they already had.

[JFlowers]

I hope you and your daughter have a wonderful time!

I have started a new thread specifically for the discussion and hopefully generation of a ruleset or guideline for using 22s. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58470

I will actually step up to the plate and say that if the reponse is positive, I will compile all the feedback into a guideline format and talk to Charles (A6) about reviewing it.

[Johann the Horrible]

My daughter started shooting at age 12 with a Browning HP. Sure not all the loads made the 125 factor but no-one really cared.(Until she started beating grown men) She is now shooting a 45 BullM5 factoring about 180 with little problems.(She`s now 13) I would like her to shoot production but it is impossible to get a license in South Africa. The moral of all this is that we should not think that women cannot handle the larger calibers.( They even have babies ((when they are much older))and if they can handle that they should be able to handle everything else. ) Now I just need to convince her not to wear those tight halter tops and low cut jeans to shoots as it is attracting some rather unsavory characters as spectators. (Boys about her age). It seems that if she continues some of them might even start shooting.(Very bad, she will see them every Saturday) I even caught one of them "meeting" her on Mixit(type of text messaging) afterwards. The boys I can handle(Have a shotgun and 5 unused acres behind the house for unexpected burials) but she is now at the stage where she sometimes beats me in some of the COF`s and that really hurts. To add insult to injury the younger one insists on starting shooting this year, she`s now 11.

This bring me to a thing that we need to consider carefully. At roundabout age 12 a child starts learning about certain aspects of danger. e.g. If a younger child stands next to the road and it is unsafe to cross the child would normally not cross. Sometimes however they close their eyes and, to them, the danger does not exist anymore and they will run in front of a vehicle. As I said at roundabout age 12 (some earlier some later) they learn to differentiate. Most parents does not know that and that could cause some pandemonium on a shooting range. Not that the child needs to close their eyes to "banish" some danger they sometimes do not have the ability to perceive a (unseen)danger. For the first few months I insisted on being my daughters RO and this was just fine with management as I was RO`ing anyway. Problem is that not all parents are RO`s and some RO`s children are grownup and some RO`s have no children. It is just something we need to consider when we allow young shooters, and allow them we must.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Johann the Horrible

[pstew]

This has got me thinking.

Why not have USPSA recognize rimfire as a division for under 14 years old ?

No holster starts - allow coaching - allow assistance such as clearing a jam - allow for "alternate" shooting positions such as steps

What would be the harm ? 500 + new members ?

I love this idea. Weren't we supposed to look for ways to bring in new members? Frontsite Jan edition.

[joecichlid]

Just a thought, .22 conversion kits? This would allow the kids to get used to the feel and weight of a competition gun and still allow the use of mag pouches and holsters. Clearly the young shooters would have to show they are able to handle the gun before shooting from a holster but that is the idea. I have played around a bit with the CZ .22 kitand it might be a great platform for a young shooter as would one of the Marvel kits.

Joe W.

[JFD]

I've seen little kids, including my own 7 year old daughter, handle a heck of a lot more than a .22 rimfire. My daughter at that age could easily shoot my Para Limited .40 shooting major loads and I saw a 10 year old shooting a .45 Commander with factory ammo. I thought the Commander was a bit much, but the kid was having a blast. However my daughter was not ready to run & gun at 7.

A kid who can only handle a .22 without drawing is not close to mature or strong enough for this sport. Stick to Steel or something that allows .22s in the rules. A kid who can't handle a 9mm scares me. How are they going to deal with doors or opening ports? I'd have to avoid that squad and the club that threw the rulebook out the window.

[M ammo]

I’m very happy to see everyone in the thread positive about having Kids come out and shoot!

I have a Walther P 22, 4 ea, 10 round mags. And the controls are similar to guns they would grow into. The trigger is rough but good for a kid, to learn trigger control.

Both of my Kids shoot it. Son 11 and Daughter 8. My Daughter likes to shoot more than my Son. My Son has shot two competitions. And my daughter is not quite ready. But sooner or later, she will be.

Our club will let them compete, not a problem just as long as I (the parent) am participating. Our Club has some great RO’s that are good with Kids. We all know the story about how the same words out of your mouth are overbearing dribble, but the same words from that RO are Gods word. That is OK with me, as long as they get it,, and have a good time.

Rules, I hope people don’t get too wrapped up in them. Just let the kids come out and shoot,

They will have a good time, and learn and share that camaraderie that we all enjoy.

If the kids keep shooting, sooner or later they are going to whoop your butt; you might as well get used to it. You can take some credit; after all they didn’t have to start from Zero as many of us did back in the day.

I am working on holding myself back. I want them to share my sport. I have to be careful. I don’t want to flood them with my enthusiasm, and scare them off.

Jim M ammo

[raffica]

As match director at my club, I have a couple of kids that compete with 22's. They are a small boy and a girl around 11 or so. I allow them to compete in whichever division they like(the guns they use only hold 10 rounds). I score them minor and only require them to hit the steel not knock it over.

These young shooters are the future of the sport and anything I can do to encourage them to shoot safely, I will. It also promotes family uity as they have a common hobby which is also a good thing.

I agree completely with the latter half of this about young shooters. I do have a question about shooting steel targets with 22lr. I'd worry about serious risk of bounce-back injury from a 90degree hit on steel target. I've had this happen on a wood backstop (old railroad ties) and since steel has far less "give" than wood, I pose the question.

[Jim Norman]

Static Steel Targets should be set so that they deflect hits down. If they are set flat, they pose a danger regardless of caliber, set at the proper angle, they will deflect all hits regardless of PF. Of course the face of the steel must be in good condition, heavily pitted steel is a danger.

Jim

[GlockSpeed31]

I personally like this idea very much. It will be a great way to get new people into the sport, get the older members back to the sport and as mentioned earlier, allow those on a tight budget to shoot as well. I would start shooting the 22lr div if allowed. I am on a tight budget and can only shoot a match every other month or so. After paying $3 a gal for gas, $20 for entry fee and then the ammo cost, that pretty much uses up all the extra cash I had for a month or so.

Anyways, enough about my issues, lets do it to drive that membership number way up and also allows a cross-over to steel challenge and back.

And that Ladies & Gentlemen, is my .02

[EricW]

you'd have to be a grinch, as an MD, not to make all possible accommodations for her.

Heck, we might even consider it as a real category.

Mark me down as the Grinch.

A. The minute you give up DVC, you no longer have a sport. Why not score Airsoft as major while you're at it? Then we can add a bunch more divisions for the really young 'uns: bb gun, rubber-band run, nerf-gun, finger gun... After all, we *will* get more shooters, and ANYTHING no matter how inane in the name of getting new shooters is OK, right?

B. If whomever we're discussing (child, geezer, handicapped, or other disability) is not strong enough to manipulate a firearm that fires 9mm minor, they simply aren't suited for run and gun matches. I used to think that anything that got shooters out to matches was a great idea. Not anymore. Every time I see a "special needs" shooter at an IPSC-style match, I just cringe. It's big can of worms. There are usually serious safety issues because of the (lack of) strength, maturity, experience, you-name-it on the part of the shooter.

I can see a MD permitting someone to shoot a 22 FOR NO SCORE on a case-by-case basis where he knows the individual(s) involved an is confident that there won't be a safety issue and that it won't make the match drag on forever. Institutionalize it in the sport for score, and I'm gone. Without DVC, the sport is a farce. It occurs to me that we should make a point of electing all directors and presidents in USPSA based on their position of maintaining the DVC triangle. Dumping DVC is like dumping the 5th Amendment just because you haven't been charged with a crime and don't particularly need it right now. Either you're for the entire package, or you're not.

And I'm not saying that ANYONE'S particular 12 yo, especially the aforementioned, is not capable of shooting a match safely, but the ability to operate a full-power firearm on his or her own, without outside assistance and coaching, is a pretty doggone good metric of whether or not a shooter ready for run-n-gun.

[Jim Norman]

Eric,

I essentially agree with you. Steel is a good place for those that are limited to a .22.

If you want to get together with a few friends in a practice session and let the daughter or son shoot with a .22, that is a different animal.

Setting up .22 or Airsoft as a recognized division is a major step down the slope.

Jim

[shooterready]

My son started shooting a P22 at the age of 6. He now shoots a G19, he'll be 9 on Sat. Been shooting the 9mm for about a year now. His skills are impresive already. He regularly finishes in the bottom 75-80% of the field. It's tough for the adults to get beat by a 9 year old. Brings a tear to my eye. He has shoot several local matches over the last couple years with both the 22 and 9mm. Just last Sat. at our IDPA practice he shot my 610, cause I was out of 9's. I couldn't believe his hits on target. Better than mine. He even zero'd an 18 round COF with targets out to 12 yards.

My daughter, 11, has been shooting for about a year as well. She prefers the 22 rifle right now. But, is starting to get interested in pistols. I see an expensive summer coming.

[TMC]

My daughter started shooting the club level Steel Challenge this summer with a Buckmark and then moved to the 1911 conversion. The video is from her first match.

She was at the IRC with me this June and saw some other kids shooting and said she would like to shoot revolvers with me next year. So we took the 627 I won at that match and set it up for her. We've shot a couple of practices and the ICORE postal match last month. She is not a big kid by any stretch of the imagination, just turned 13, a bit under 5 feet tall and weights about 70lbs soaking wet. She has no trouble handling the gun, dealing with recoil, reloading or moving. The toughest part was finding a belt small enough for her tiny waist, so we ended up cutting an old Safariland belt system.

Having shot revolvers myself for a few years they seem to be a good place for kids to start in my opinion. They require allot of trigger movement to go off should they get dropped or the shooters tries to get quick on the trigger from the draw, the are relatively heavy so they soak up some recoil, they don't have heavy springs in a slide, which can be hard small kids to rack and they have very simple controls.

[michaels]

My daughter started shooting the club level Steel Challenge this summer with a Buckmark and then moved to the 1911 conversion. The video is from her first match.

Having shot revolvers myself for a few years they seem to be a good place for kids to start in my opinion. They require allot of trigger movement to go off should they get dropped or the shooters tries to get quick on the trigger from the draw, the are relatively heavy so they soak up some recoil, they don't have heavy springs in a slide, which can be hard small kids to rack and they have very simple controls.

AW CRAP, now I have to put up with getting beat by a 13 year old, couldn't you get her intrested in skeet or trap, tell her that's where all the boys are....

michaels

[Skizeks]

Not only getting beat by a 13 year old, but a 13 year old girl! You have to just hate that.

There was a guy that brought his son around and shot with a 22. It was kinda neat when he would double tap the steel trying to knock it down.