Thoughts on Single Stack Magwell's etc...

[zhunter]

I have been kind of on the front end of the curve with regards to the Single Stack SV magwell. So here are my thoughts on both the magwell and some other thoughts and questions about my single stack reloading, magwells and magazines.

First the magwell:

The SV magwell initially seemed like a gift from the shooting gods. It was the next best thing to shooting Limited, in that the HUGE target it presented seemed to make single stack reloading more palatable for someone like myself who had migrated from Limited. After having used it for 12 months now, here are my thoughts.

1) The SV magwell is great for a consistent grip on the draw!! I think this is the biggest asset / bonus of the magwell.

2) I do NOT think it speeds up your reloads, not noticeably anyway. Here is why, unlike limited, where you have a large magwell opening in the grip, and a tapered magazine at the top which then widens into double-stack width, a SS magazine is straight. The magwell opening is narrow and with the an un-tapered magazine, it has to be a much more accurate and straight presentation into the magwell. ( by this I mean into the actual grip of the gun, NOT into the “aftermarket” SV magwell). You see, the SV magwell can direct the magazine towards the “hole”, but it does not magically align it to be slid into the magwell / grip. I have come to the conclusion that there is NO substitute for practice, practice, practice, and MORE practice with regards to reloading.

3) Reliability? I have also found that using the SV magwell, I don’t seat the magazine 100% of the time. Let me explain, the depth of the magwell from top to bottom is significant relative to the length of the magazine. So, when doing a reload, it is imperative to actually rotate your wrist / palm to a perpendicular angle to the grip of the gun in order to fully seat the magazine in the gun. Why? Well, it is due to the extra length that SV magwell adds to the grip of the gun. I have been using Wilson 47DE magazines, which have a rather large basepad, even so, it is difficult to achieve 100% magazine seating reliability. OK, I already hear you, nothing is 100%!!! So, in my match testing, I would say that about 1 in 20 reloads are not seating, and after pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, I am forced to burn precious time re-seating and racking the slide. This is time that can cost you a match!!!!! I think that a 5% failure rate is WAY too high, your opinions may vary.

So, here are my thoughts on Single Stack magwells and some thoughts and a few questions on magazines:

I am giving SERIOUS consideration to going back to the S&A magwell. It allows me a to seat the magazine more reliably, it MIGHT, and I say might because I am not convinced it is so, but might be marginally slower than the SV magwell. I can hit a reliable in match 1.25 second reload with a SV magwell, I think I might slow down to a 1.35 – 1.45 second at worst. I think this is a good trade off for reliability. Take this with a grain of salt, as I also use a Blade-Tech DOH for Limited, as I like the peace of mind NEVER having to worry about the gun falling out of the holster. My draws are as fast or faster with this holster as they were in various “race” holsters. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO PRACTICE!!!!!

OK, magazines, here I have some questions rather than observations:

As I said, I have been using Wilson 47DE magazines. I have had to “re-spec” 4 of my 8 recently. On the front of the magazine, above the mag-catch hole, the magazines had become too wide and were failing to drop free. I put the calipers on them, and it was a very slight difference, but enough to cause a problem. The “bulge” was just after the front curve came to the flat area on the sides of the magazine. I DO dry-fire a lot, so maybe this is the cause of them going “out-of-spec”, maybe not. I purchased some new Tripp research magazines, model number 8R-45-RGH that I feel are excellent. I am in the early to mid-stages of testing, so take that for what it is worth. They don’t have the LARGE basepad of the Wilson’s, but if I do switch to the S&A magwell, they will be perfect and most likely will be what I switch to for the foreseeable future. They do work with the SV magwell, but once again, my trust level with the Tripp’s, due to only a month of testing, is a bit lower than the Wilson’s with the SV magwell. Without the SV magwell, I feel they are the “go-to” magazine.

OK, there are my thoughts on Single Stack reloads, magwells, and magazines from over a year of shooting Single Stack exclusively. I hope this helps some of you, makes you think about what you are doing and gets more people up to speed in a new Division. If nothing else, maybe I can help cut down on YOUR learning curve.

Enjoy!!!!

Edited December 5, 2007 by zhunter

[steel1212]

Z after seeing a friend's SVI magwell at a match I came to pretty much the same conclusion. I'm going to stick with my SA magwell as its what I know and I know that I can seat the mags 100% with it with the stock CMC or wilson pads. He also had to modify his mags on the front of the basepad to drop free, nothing major but I couldn't use his gun that match as none of my mags would drop free and he didn't bring any extras.

[SoonerPast]

Thanks for sharing. A friend is using one of the Techwell magwell's and I don't see any advantage it gives him. Just as you said, he has to use a very direct approach, just as if there were no magwell.

Another friend is a real purist and uses no magwell. He seems pretty fast to me, but then the reload is a significant weakness of mine. Practice, you say. OK

[Nemo]

Excellent! Thanks, Z!

I started playing with my single stack a couple of months ago and will be shooting it exclusively next year. I have the S&A magwell and my Springer loves ACT/Novak mags. That said, I don't think my reloads could be any faster with one of the bigger magwells just because I'm slow. Look forward to further reviews and results of your experimentation.

PAGING GENTLEMAN JIM... watch out for this guy changing all this stuff in his gun. Seems he's fabricating and excuse for you kicking his butt...

[vrmn1]

Excellent! Thanks, Z!

I started playing with my single stack a couple of months ago and will be shooting it exclusively next year. I have the S&A magwell and my Springer loves ACT/Novak mags. That said, I don't think my reloads could be any faster with one of the bigger magwells just because I'm slow. Look forward to further reviews and results of your experimentation.

PAGING GENTLEMAN JIM... watch out for this guy changing all this stuff in his gun. Seems he's fabricating and excuse for you kicking his butt...

You shooting single stack this weekend?

[Chris Keen]

Thanks Z. I too have been shooting Single Stack for the last month & 1/2 and will continue to do so up until the end of April

I like my S&A magwell, but I usually go looking for that "better mousetrap". This time I may just try that weirdness about practicing instead of spending $150 + on a new version of the same thing.

[Radical Precision Designs]

History has a way of repeating certain things.

I am glad this time is the 1911 thing.

When we started this thing called IPSC. We had these pistols we called "Colt .45's". Later on when "aftermarketeers" came about we started calling them 1911's. It still sounds strange to me. I remember a friend who had a "Colt .45 in 9mm", and another one who had it in this weird caliber: ".38 Auto". Magazine capacity was 7+1. Yes, we had to reload, and do it as fast as we could too.

Initially we beveled the mag well opening, and that helped the lips hanging/grabbing on them. Some guys started doing something real nasty: they started physically "wedging" the opening, deforming the mag opening into more of a funnel. It was ugly and you needed to whittle the grips to fit, but it worked. I came up with the drastic idea of using a TIG welder to deposit molten metal in the front strap and around the mag well, and after it cooled of I would hand grind and shape that extra metal into front strap finger grooves and a perfectly "funneled", wider mag entry well. Now we were in shooter's heaven. Later on Smith & Alexander brought in their mainspring housings with a mag well attached. The inside of the S&A's did not have the funnel in front and the mouth was not as wide as my welded design, but it was a good compromised readily available over the counter, that you could install and were good to go, even if they were heavier. Caspian later on also came with a nice frame with a built in mag well, which is still available this day.

There were no wide bodies to get us "distracted". It was just good ole' 1911's, and in .45 ACP. We found ways to make them work and like "ZHunter" we practiced, practiced, practiced, and them more practice those mag changes. Learned a few tricks and facts along the way. As "ZHunter" illustrated, it is a long "skinny" ride up that grip. Inserting a mag angled from either side or the rear does not work, and deforms the lips, untill you learn to train your muscle/memory to align/angle from the front, against the mainspring housing and straighten it as you shove it right up. Sometimes we cut a little bit off the bottom of the grip, leaving a small gap (about the same as the front notch of the front strap), and that would help seating the mags fully on the run. The insertion routine was not that different than the one used for the wide body gun nowadays, but it is not tolerant at all with slight side insertion. It was/is a practice of approaching the grip's opening in a straight line at a slight angle, aiming the back stripe of your mag at the lower inside point of you mainspring housing, making sure the bullet nose cleared the front strap, then from there a quick shove as the hand's palmtook the small slight upwards turn. Practice it several thousand times, looking at it, with your eyes closed, overhead, behind your back, etc. untill the darn thing goes in like a guided missile. Take the freaking mag well off, and practice without it untill you can confidently score every time, then put it back on, when you don't really need it anymore. Hey, they do look cute.

As for mags, I would seriously take a look at those Tripp, or the Novak/Act-Mags. Personally I am starting to love the ease of disassembly/cleaning/reassembly of those Novak/Act-Mags.

[G-ManBart]

One potential problem with the S/A magwell is that it's HEAVY! There are a lot of SS guns out there that won't meet the 43oz weight limit with one (don't forget a mag has to be in the gun too). I've got a Techwell and an S/A and will see what works out the best for me and still makes weight. The Techwell and Alumagrips are actually lighter than an S/A and wood grips...which surprised me.

[Chris Keen]

I don't think that there's anyone among us thinks that a bigger magwell is a "magical" device that is going to help you win the very next match you go to. I firmly believe in lots of practice (whatever works for you), as much as I believe in paying close attention to what the hell you're doing at all times. But ANY advantage is a point in your favor.

Zhunter ... I have not been shooting my 1911 for a year yet ... not even 1/4th that time. But I also have a 1 in 20 times problem seating a mag (Wilson 47D's) with my S&A magwell. I think it's just me, but I think the potential is always going to be there for that to happen no matter which 'well you're using.

I sincerely thank you for the SV review because I have been trying to make a decision between the Tech-well and the SV. Both are about $150. That buys alot of .45 bullets. And I also have been having a problem with a couple mags not dropping out clean all the times. They seem to sort of slow-fall out of the gun. Grabbing and stripping them out is much faster. Sux. So I will check them with a caliper soon as I can.

[Catfish]

Good topic, Z.

Here's my thoughts, and take that for what it's worth.

I have shot SS since last, oh, May or so. Before that, I shot Limited for a couple years, and before that, I shot CDP in IDPA for several years. I have several years behind a 1911.... earned my M card in both IDPA and USPSA shooting a single stack.

I picked up a Techwell at this year's nationals in Tulsa. Instantly fell in love with it - and I have the medium sized mag well. Had a buddy let me shoot his 1911 for a while and I mounted an SV magwell to it. I got to compare, for a couple months at least, the SV magwell and the Techwell side by side and day to day.

Prior to that, the only magwell I ever used was a SA.

My thought is that hands down, the Techwell is the best mag well, for me anyway. It has something to do, far as I can tell, with the angle of approach into the mag well. Anything that hits the magwell flows straight into the gun, period. Not so, in my experience, with the SV. The Techwell mag, to my eye, looks wider while the SV mag well looks deeper. I suppose I could measure, but just going by feel and performance alone, the Techwell wins.

Even running 47D mags, I never missed seating a reload, ever, with both mag wells. You've got to get the meat of your thumb 'swell' on your palm under the mag but if you do that - in my case, anyway - it's 100%.

I haven't put it to the clock, but going from a "feel" standpoint, from the waist to the gun, I can hit SS reloads just as fast as I can hit my 2011 reloads - in the 1 to 1.2 second range if I had to guess - but only with the Techwell. The SV magwell is slower - for me. If put to the clock, I'm betting the SS is a touch slower than the fat gun, but only due to mag placement on the belt; like I said, I'd bet that from the waist to the gun speed is going to be comparable to the fat gun...

The key is to rotate the gun so you can actually SEE the mag well opening and look the mag in. And that just takes practice, regardless of what mag well (or not) you're using.

YMMV, and there's my .02.

[Kingman]

is the sa that much heavier. I mean it does not seem that bad to me, but my single stacks have had them in place for years.

[Steve J]

My choice is a Smith & Alexander magwell smoothly blended to the frame. Chip McCormick Power Mags with their extended base pad instead of the original length. It fits in the box. ...and practice of course. For in the box starts in IDPA, I'll use a magazine with the original base pad so as not to put undue wear on the finish of my rear sight.

[G-ManBart]

is the sa that much heavier. I mean it does not seem that bad to me, but my single stacks have had them in place for years.

I just weighed my Techwell (the big one), the Alumagrips and a polymer MS housing. They were 3.5oz total.

I then weighed an S/A magwell/MS housing (flat) with a set of standard Colt wood grips and they were also 3.5oz.

The one thing I can say is that there is a fair amount of meat you could easily remove from the inside of the Alumagrips if you need to lose a little. The midsized Techwell is probably a bit lighter as well.

So, the TW/AG combo can be lighter than an S/A but it's not a guarantee.

Edited December 6, 2007 by G-ManBart

[steel1212]

This will be like a chrono and everybodys guns will be diffrent but my SA black stainless combat model made the 41oz weight with micarta grips, full length guide rod and a SA magwell with CMC power mags. Since I weighed it last it has had A LOT of meat taken off on the SA magwell to blend it to the frame and a few TI parts. I think most people's stock type guns will make the weight and if not ususally dropping in a GI guide rod typically works.

On the seating issue I've found that its easier for me to seat the CMC mags than it is to seat the wilsons. I've ended up with 3 wilsons or so in trades and typically start with those mags, I load all my mags before a match if I can remember, and then load to the CMC's. Honestly I can't remember not seating a mag all the way on the single stack, I mean hell guys most of us try to cram a 19/20 round mag into our limited guns. Load it like it pissed you off!

I can't wait to see what some of the hit factors are going to be in a month. My classifiers have all been terrible, but that has been partially me and partially the classifiers that I have shot with it haven't been the easiest either.

[scribble]

Z I appreciate your info on this subject as I was looking fro answers like this last month. I do have the SVI magwell and no I don't think it helps in my reload speed but yes it did help with my grip considerably. I have some large hands that would try and wrap under the frame covering the mag opening. Since I installed the SVI magwell I have had a consistent grip each and every time and it doesn't block a mag.

[Dan Sierpina]

I find some of the "problems" somewhat amusing. Like Venry, I started the game when the "only" gun to use was a Colt Gov't model. His details of the progression of mag wells is dead on. Few guns had the frame "forged" for a funnel. Most had some form of mag well attachment, often there were wells made by the regional gunsmiths. Wilson always got a lot of press and was common. Wilson's wasn't much larger than a normal bevel job. Then Brown's MaxiWell arrived, which had to be soldered or welded on. However there was no magic to the additions that practiced wouldn't enhance. I still have a magwell that I machined out of a hunk of steel that's been on my Gov't model since about 1983-84, and see no need to change it.

[Nemo]

You shooting single stack this weekend?

Yes sir.

[Nemo]

As for mags, I would seriously take a look at those Tripp, or the Novak/Act-Mags. Personally I am starting to love the ease of disassembly/cleaning/reassembly of those Novak/Act-Mags.

That's one of the reasons I like them too, Venry. The main one being that my gun runs 100% with them. One downfall of the Novak/ACT, as it was pointed out to me elsewhere in these forums, is that the lips will break with heavy use. Specifically in mine, the rear corner of the right side lip. I've only been using these mags for about 6 months worth of local matches and already have four broken mags. When finance$ allow I will take a look at the new Wilsons. Those seem to have similar base pad design as the ACTs.

Edited to add: although the ACT mags seem prone to feed lip breakage, every time I've sent a broken one to PSI they have exchanged it, no questions asked. Good people!

Edited December 6, 2007 by Nemo

[vrmn1]

You shooting single stack this weekend?

Yes sir.

Darn I was hoping you were shooting revo.

Whew boy am I glad you're not shooting revo.

[Singlestack Wonder]

One potential problem with the S/A magwell is that it's HEAVY!

S&A now offers aluminum versions of their magwells. At this point in time, Brownells does not carry them, but they can be purchased direct from S&A.

[sixshooter]

I'm still looking for another scale to compare, but when I weigh my SW1911 with SA magwell & Wilson 47D mag I get 40.5 oz. This is with my trigger pull scale.

[Madcap Magician]

I agree that you need to practice reloading to run a single stack well. For me, I used a Kimber 1911 without a magwell on my run to CDP master. I practiced the reload a lot, and only after I hit master did I reward myself with the magwell. You still have to be decent at reloading, it's just you can be a hair less precise with the mag well. I've been using an Ed Brown Maxi-Well and really like it so far.

And if you can run a single stack like a champ, when you shoot a widebody it's a piece of cake.

[Merlin Orr]

I read all the interesting comments...and.... I'll keep my SVI magwells on my SS guns.

[ChuckS]

I'm still looking for another scale to compare, but when I weigh my SW1911 with SA magwell & Wilson 47D mag I get 40.5 oz. This is with my trigger pull scale.

Your post inspired me to weigh my Springer with the SA and it too comes in right around 40.5-41 with a Wilson 47De (base pad ground down to fit the box)

[gino_aki]

I've got an SV well and haven't tried it yet, but the best I ever did use was the weld on Ed Brown. The one Springfield Armory put on my old SS .40 Open gun (which a buddy REFUSES to sell back to me ) was beautifully contoured into the frame and reloading with that gun was SLICK. I sure wish I'd kept it since the Tripp ten round mags make it very viable for shooting here in Hawai'i.