"Oh, it's just a local match"

[Bigbadaboom]

While shooting a local match today I saw a shooter who stopped himself due too a squib get a re-shoot. When I voiced my concern I received the response "It's a local match, It's the R.O.'s call". I grumbled that it's the rules and that the R.O. can't just make up rules but this too was shot down so I shut my mouth as not to be too confrontational. I shot a stage and hit a popper at about 7 'oclock with an edge hit. As I stepped out of the box to move through the stage I hesitated and then decide that I'ld ask for a calibration and finished the stage. When finished I asked for a calibration and the R.O. said that he would just give me the hit because calibration would take too long. I opposed this saying that the rules allowed for me to get a calibration and if the steel fell it's a mike and if it doesn't it's a re-shoot. i was prepared for either outcome but I was going to stick with the rules. I heard "It's a local match and it's the R.O.'s call." I decided that I wasn't going to keep my mouth shut about this one and stated that we had at least 3 new shooters on our squad and this was not setting a good example. I went to the M.D. and he agreed with me and I received a re-shoot due to the lack of calibration and the following shooter shooting the stage. later on the same stage I turned and headed back up range from paisting and setting steel and saw two shooters, one who's been shooting a while and one brand new, who were sharing a gun. The one who has been shooting a while had drawn his gun and was giving it to the brand new shooter WITH THREE PEOPLE INCLUDING ME DOWN RANGE. I said in a loud voice "PLEASE DON'T DO THAT WITH ME DOWN RANGE". No DQ with the RO close by, just a "UH, O.K."

There is a rule book to keep this sport fair and safe and it applies to ALL USPSA sanctioned matches, not just level 2 and 3's.

I'm trying to better myself and not be such an A**hole so these situations are tests for me and untill I can get my delivery down I prefer to avoid them but I'm going to let all on here know that the next time, "SCREW WHAT OTHERS THINK", I'm going to go F' ing bullistick when someone says "It's just a local match".

Edited November 11, 2007 by Bigbadaboom

[Chris Keen]

Local matches are no place to throw the rule book away. They are a fountain of knowledge, where friends can help each other learn the right way to enforce safety rules.

[xdrocker]

Not fond of the "local match" syndrome, I've seen some of the same things with the exception of the safety. That would have been an automatic ticket home. If not, I would be done for the day (won't shoot with idiots like that) and the MD and myself would be having a talk to correct the situation. If not, then the club directors would be notified as to the unsafe actions be practiced and allowed to happen on their range. Safety violations should NEVER be tolerated, especially when someone is downrange. It is no fun to look up and see the business end of a weapon.

[Micah]

Level 1 matches bend the rules as far as stage design...but that is it.

Would I rather call a self squib at a club match and save my gun...losing the match in the process? Absolutely.

Should the rules of the game be bended because it's "Only a club match"?

No freakin' way.

You've got two CRO's that have posted on this thread that agree with you...if that eases your pain

[J-Ho]

As experienced CRO's how do you guys handle new shooters? We sometimes let little things slide(like dropping mags in IDPA ) but explain to the shooter what the rule was and what they did wrong. Sometimes in a limited number of situations we let some things slide. Experienced shooters however, never get a pass. We never compromise on saftey.

Again, How do you guys handle new shooters? Both new to action shooting in general or new to the particular discipline (IDPA or USPSA)?

[Micah]

Coming from a USPSA standpoint (I'm not a certified SO), and coming from my own personal standpoint, here are my thoughts on your question J-HO:

New shooters are the lifeblood of the sport. Without them, our love would expire...that being said, at the Level 1 arena, my main goal includes informing them about the sport and give tips-a-plenty (how I would shoot the stage, where to reload, etc.)...but once the shooter is started, it's all up to them. I might shout "TRIGGER FINGER" or "180!!" once or twice, but it is ultimately up to them.

I have no problem saying nothing to the question "Did I miss anything" when a shooter asks while shooting, or sending one home after breaking the 180 if the need requires.

Safety reigns supreme. Giving the new guy a break might mean compromising the hard working C class shooter and ultimately effect the overall results...ergo it is never acceptable.

[J-Ho]

Safety reigns supreme. Giving the new guy a break might mean compromising the hard working C class shooter and ultimately affect the overall results...ergo it is never acceptable.

Good point.

[Seth]

As a certifiable FNG, I like being told when I make a mistake, I learn something. I also despise the rule bending, as I'm trying to learn them... if you bend them, I lose as I might not learn something I'll need later on.

We had a shooter DQ'd today for dropping a loaded gun. They got their shirt caught in the holster and RO told them so. As they pulled out the shirt, plop. Hate to see someone get DQ'd, but thems the rules. As long as its a game, those are the rules and we stick to them.

[boz1911]

I shoot a lot with IMA45DV8 and he has certainlly taught me there is no substitute for following the rules. I abide by them and execute them when I'm the RO. Local match or whatever. Hell 45DV8 made me reshoot a stage 3 times because I struck a steel plate mount and not the steel, causing it to fall (REM). Anyone else would have just given me the shot. Use the rules, speak up if you see them abused, especially if it's a safety violation.

[Micah]

DQ's are going to happen to new shooters as well as the seasoned...but one thing that Bill and Chris has taught me is the importance of having a "post DQ" conversation with a new shooter. It can be quite disenfranchising for a spring chicken to be told that they are finished for the day, and without a follow up we might lose them forever. Letting them know exactly what happened and how to avoid it in the future will go a long way.

Now there was an incident several months ago at a local club where some fng became defiant, yelled at the RO, and threw his gun in a temper tantrum. A rare situation like this requires a much different follow up

[Jim Rusert]

Unless this happened at my home club (where I would be inclined to work to get the problem fixed), that would be the last time I would shoot at that club. I don't tolerate unsafe gun handling - ever.

[RePete]

Local matches are no place to throw the rule book away. They are a fountain of knowledge, where friends can help each other learn the right way to enforce safety rules.

I agree, local matches are where you learn how to shoot the matches not a Provincial/State/National.

Rules can be bent a bit, as Pharoh Benders says, the design, coaching shooters in their first or second match BUT NOT SAFETY RULES!

I'm an RO.

[Ron Ankeny]

There is a rule book to keep this sport fair and safe and it applies to ALL USPSA sanctioned matches, not just level 2 and 3's.

Amen. As for new shooters, we generally place them far enough down the shooting order as to allow an experienced shooter to give a play by play as other shooters go through the course of fire. We also have someone explain the scoring rules, parts of the stage where a 180 violation is apt to occur (such as right handed shooters reloading going right to left) and so forth. We also coach the first time shooter if they want the help. We are a small club and everyone realizes the club will die if we don't see to the needs of new shooters. I assume all clubs do something similar?

[kimel]

The rules are the rules. They are there for a reason. And a whole lot of folks shoot our sport without ever having bothered to actually read the rules.

Those that invoke the "it's only a level 1 or "local" match" exception need to be pointed toward the next available NROI Level 1 course for a bit of education.

I believe the 2008 rules will tighten the "level 1 exception" up a bit more but I seriously doubt this will be noticed by many shooters that only shoot local matches and not bigger matches.

[scirocco38s]

I just had a situation at the local match that I run where a new shooter(a person I had invited in fact) broke the 180. During the walk thru I showed everyone the stage and even warned the newer shooters about shooting a set of targets from past a point was breaking the 180 so there would not be any loose interpretation of what was the 180 on that particular stage. He was new and energized about shooting the stage and as he was finishing he saw 2 more targets out of the corner of his eyes and turned about 10 degrees more and shot. The RO tried to stop him but it was too late. When he was informed of what he did, he looked at his placement vs the targets and agreed. cleared his weapon and to the DQ graciously. He apologized for what he had done and then came and asked if this would keep him from further shoots. I informed him that mistakes happen and that he would be welcome again. We talked for a few more minutes and then he left to go home. I shot with him at another match 3 days later and he apologized again and we laughed about it for a minute or so and then went back to the match. Will he break the 180 again, maybe , but he is definetly a shooter that understands the safety aspect of the sport. I have never allowed the safety aspect of the sport to be compromised at our local matches. If we have shooters using 1 gun for 2 shooters we make sure they either trade at the start box with the ro or go to the safety areas and trade there. The only variance that is left for local matches as far as I am concerned is the max rounds per stage can exceed 32. Everything else has to be by the rules.

[JFD]

I've noticed the "It's just a local match" attitude losing popularity at our local club. It's still there, but not as strong as in the past.

Most, if not all of the newbies I've been around do not need or want special treatment in terms of rules bending. Most have no idea what the RO and other shooters are discussing/arguing as they decide how to bend the rules to benefit the newbie. I think we would be better off following the rules and clearly explaining what the penalty was for.

[XD Niner]

Both clubs that I shoot with routinely handle these issues much as those above have said.

1. Safety is all important. No matter if you are a new or experienced shooter they apply as well as the appropriate penalty. I think we do explain to someone who has DQ'd why they were DQ'd and also invite them back again. We also encourage them to stay for the rest of the day and learn.

2. Probably 90%+ of the stages at our local matches comply with all USPSA criteria. However, we occasionaly have a high round count (52 at yesterday's match) or some stage requirement (e.g., mandatory reload) to make things a bit more interesting.

3. We all try to coach the newbies and make them feel at home. They, like we were at our first match, are usually a bit overwhelmed. I tell all they had a successful match if they stayed safe and had fun. If they are struggling to hit a target we might tell them high/low/left/right and give some other very minor coaching while they are shooting. We also give them a bit more attention when they are clearing their gun and reholstering at the end of the stage. Of course, before and after they shoot the stage we coach them and usually too much.

Our first priority has got to be that everyone go home with no more holes in them than they came with. If any of these clubs have a serious injury or worse due to a shooting safety violation the consequences would be huge. None of us want that.

After that, our next priority is to have fun and introduce the new shooters to this outstanding sport and the people who participate in it. A friendly attitude along with some low key coaching will go a long way to make sure they come back next month.

Edited November 12, 2007 by XD Niner

[Jaxshooter]

I am the RM from the club XDNiner is talking about. The ONLY exception that is ever made is stage design/round count. We will never compromise the rules for any reason. If you do this people become lax and that is when something happens. It is also an injustice to a new shooter to not follow the rules to the letter. If I ever shot at a club as mentioned in the original post and brought it to the ROs attention and got the "local match reply", I would immendiately pack up and go home for the day.

[Flexmoney]

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