IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[freeidaho]

Howdy,

Today, 3-Gun most everywhere is "lots-o-shooting" for the pure fun of shooting huge amounts of ammo at most any type of target, without any intent to be like real combat or self defense. That is part of what makes it fun. It is an arcade game of sorts, but it takes a pickup load of quarters to play.

Since IDPA has Defensive in their name, I expect they will hold dear to magazine loading and max rounds per stage, to keep stage design grounded in self defense, "it could happen" type thinking.

Therein lies the rub. The people commenting on the IDPA proposal are used to, and like very much the type of 3-Gun they are already shooting. Me, I like to shoot more, but I can see IDPA's viewpoint too. If IDPA Multigun is just another 3-gun sport like we already have, then there is little point in starting it up. Others are doing all over the US, and have a loyal following. Like the MGM Ironman for example.

So the real question is this: If IDPA holds to the defensive nature for their Multigun, will large numbers of clubs adopt it? Will it catch on, and will we have an IDPA Multigun Nationals in a couple of years? Or an Idaho IDPA and Multigun Championship?

I hope that they will loosen up on what each of the equipment divisions means so that new shooters with simple equipment will be attracted to IDPA Multigun. Much like how new people are attracted to IDPA, they learn a while and then begin to shoot USPSA.

I'm suspecting that IDPA HQ will be flexible on some things if a compelling arguement can be made. However I don't believe that the magazine loading and max rounds per string changes will fly with them because of the Defensive direction of the organization.

That said, there is lots of room for improvement over the Provisional rules.

Your Thoughts?

Ken Reed

Edited October 17, 2007 by freeidaho

[Cactustactical]

You can have an AR-15 under three circumstances:

- You had it before the ban

- You are a peace officer that is authorized to by your department to have it off duty

- You built one using an "Off-List Lower," or OLL, without a pistol grip or flash hider. The DOJ banned specific manufacturers of AR-15 lowers, like DPMS and Bushmaster. If you can find someone that makes lowers that's not on the list, you can build an AR-15, as long as it doesn't have the banned features, like a pistol grip or flash hider. See this thread for pics of an OLL build AR-15 (a pretty nice one too!).

As far as hi-caps, if you had them before the ban, you are good to go. It's a no-no to have them post-ban.

No offense to those who have to live in California under these restrictions, but that's a lot of "if's". I don't think I would trust my equipment to the odds that a police officer or trooper would know the laws as they are written and trust my word

that " yes, I owned it before the ban". Kind of a crap shoot and the odds aren't worth the negative outcome.

We had a CA local police officer here in the shop last week, and he said that he did not agree with the laws as written, but he has to enforce the law. When faced with these situations, he detains and writes up what he has found and lets the prosecutor make the decision as to whether to go forward with charges.

Sorry for the thread drift and I don't want to bash CA laws, but I can't see a big match being held there with the unfriendly legal environment.

[Buzzdraw]

The first thing to toss out the window in developing this thing is any mindset related to USPSA Multi-Gun. It is not relevant to the IDPA mindset; we now have a fresh canvas with some guidelines based on IDPA principles. Now we're ready to work out the rules of this event!

Will USPSA-legal long guns fit into this discipline? In many cases they will. Should IDPA be concerned with the cost of guns to enter the activity (and be competitive)? You bet! There needs to be room in some divisions for the shooters to go wild (to a point) with "toys" added to their fire rods. Some folks in the sandbox are using rifles with two optics; one a distance scope with the other a red dot on top for up close; sounds like USPSA, but it's also practical.

Shotgun-wise, I would tend to set the 18" pump as the start point and might even suggest a 5 + 1 load capacity. Extension tubes are available to get these up to 7-8 rounds, but not all beginning shooters will have this gadget. Various competition-purpose shotguns, like certain Remington 11-87's and Winchester SX-2's and tricked out Brownings belong in their own division. I hope we do not allow non-practical devices such as tube-type speed loaders for shotguns. Maybe the shotgun must have a sling. Would optics be allowed on scatter guns? Depends on the division. Again, let's keep the cost down to start in Stock Pump.

Another mindset we should consider is how many rounds fired are necessary. I'd rather shoot more stages with fewer rounds than just a couple stages, firing enough rounds to re-enact some 3rd world revolution. No reason to have to take a trunk load of ammo to have a quality match, In my opinion.

There are the legal problems faced with individuals living in states like CA, HI, NJ, NY and so forth. Should IDPA have its rules limited by the worst-case situation in these states or should it allow rules that fit the laws in the majority of states? I'd think that it needs to look after the mainstream. If there is a competition in State X, which limits long guns to 10 rounds, then the clubs operating in that state have to comply. I for one don't want to be forced to buy a bunch of odd-ball (for me) magazines with limited practical use. Regarding national events in 3-Gun, some states/localities may be excluded from potential site consideration because of particularly onerous laws.

[p99shooter]

No offense to those who have to live in California under these restrictions, but that's a lot of "if's". I don't think I would trust my equipment to the odds that a police officer or trooper would know the laws as they are written and trust my word

that " yes, I owned it before the ban". Kind of a crap shoot and the odds aren't worth the negative outcome.

We had a CA local police officer here in the shop last week, and he said that he did not agree with the laws as written, but he has to enforce the law. When faced with these situations, he detains and writes up what he has found and lets the prosecutor make the decision as to whether to go forward with charges.

Sorry for the thread drift and I don't want to bash CA laws, but I can't see a big match being held there with the unfriendly legal environment.

The law is very clear cut. Yes, there are instances where people are unduly harrassed because their rifle doesn't look kosher. If you're concerned with that, keep a printed copy of the law inside your rifle case, and show it to anyone that stops you. Yes, there are FFLs that are "scared" to sell OLLs. Calguns.net is the place to go for discussions on OLL builds and such. I don't want to get into it any further here.

[p99shooter]

Buzzdraw and Freeidaho, you make good arguments. Hopefully, with input like yours, IDPA can form a good set of rules.

How about a list of fundamental things, or principles, to base the rules on?

-We want people to be able to be competititive, in their chosen division, without having to spend a tremendous amount of money. We also want to have the appropriate divisions available to allow everyone to play, without needing 10 divisions.

-We want stages to be semi-realistic, keeping the round count per weapon reasonable. This also keeps costs down.

-We want to be able to play the game at as many places as possible, including ranges that don't have bays out to 300 yards.

The most contentious part of this is the magazines. Nobody has said you have to go buy 10 rounders, just load them to 10. Heck, even some USPSA-baed 3-gun or multi-gun shooters think there should be some restrictions:

Magazine Restriction In Limited/tactical 3 & Multi-gun

Maybe IDPA Multi-gun should allow hi-caps, but it you used them it puts you in a different division?

I don't think it's IDPA's intention to emphasize reloading skill over shooting skill. It's trying to find a balance, allowing as many people to play as possible.

[Trail3]

I agree with P99shooter. Many good points.

Lets make it attractive for as many shooters as possible.

Make it fun, and fair.

[Buzzdraw]

The magazines are going to present two problems. The first is obviously the capacity, but we know we can download full cap magazines; we do it all the time especially in SSP . If we are limiting mag cap to the point we have to buy odd-ball mags, then the other problem presented is finding less than full capacity mag carriers. I can smell a cottage industry developing here, but they will cost more being a specialty item. Maybe our friends in full-capacity challenged states can help us with finding them; they've already had to deal with this.

As far as principles, let's look at these:

I. Promote safe and proficient use of rifles and

equipment suitable for self-defense.

II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to

test the skill and ability of each individual, not

equipment or gamesmanship.

III. Provide separate divisions for equipment and

classifications for shooters, such that rifles with

similar characteristics are grouped together and

people with similar skills compete against each other.

IV. Provide shooters with practical and realistic

courses of fire that simulate potentially life threatening

encounters, or that tests skills required to

survive life-threatening encounters.

V. Offer a practical shooting sport responsive to the

shooters and sponsors, with unprecedented stability of equipment rules.

VI. Offer a practical shooting sport that allows

competitors to concentrate on developing skills they already possess and fellowship with like-minded shooters in a safe, controlled and constantly evolving and growing environment.

Now where have you seen principles very similar to the above?

Regarding COF and Safety Rules, we have adopted this one regarding muzzle control. "All loaded rifles must always be pointed downrange within an area defined as within the left and right edges of the target area and below the backstop or berm . This includes during loading, unloading, reloading, remedial motion or while the competitor is in motion during the COF." Not only does this rule increase safety, but it also makes good tactical sense. We do limit magazines to 40 rounds capacity max. After considerable discussion, we banned rifles capable of full auto/select fire.

Actually our biggest current item of local discussion in our Practical Defensive Rifle is what constitutes a legal magazine pouch. Some of our more game-orientated shooters want to bring their open-top Kydex carriers to the match. My comment is will the gear survive the "go chop wood in forest all day and then run" test? If the gear under consideration will take a little debris, will allow the shooter to wear them all day, and if the gear is practical, then maybe it's good enough.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Buzzdraw

[Mike P]

The mag capacity limitation is just nonsense. There is no good reason, from a tactical or self defense standpoint to download mags and require reloads on a scenario when it isn't really neccessary. I understand that there was ONCE a hi-cap ban and that in order to even the playing field they restricted capacity, but it is now GONE. For shotgun, make it 9 round max in the gun and rifle whatever you want to load and carry.

What is wrong with engaging targets without a damned reload? If you're looking to "test" reload skills, then do it in standards.

Mike

[rubberneck]

The mag capacity limitation is just nonsense. There is no good reason, from a tactical or self defense standpoint to download mags and require reloads on a scenario when it isn't really neccessary. I understand that there was ONCE a hi-cap ban and that in order to even the playing field they restricted capacity, but it is now GONE. For shotgun, make it 9 round max in the gun and rifle whatever you want to load and carry.

What is wrong with engaging targets without a damned reload? If you're looking to "test" reload skills, then do it in standards.

Mike

The rules are there to create a level playing field for the largest possible pool of competitors.

At IDPA nationals I was told that 70% of IDPA members were from the northeast which was one of the reasons why it was moved to Pa. I found that number hard to believe but it came from a person who should know so I am prepared to take it at face value. I didn't have the chance to ask what states they considered North East but I am pretty sure that it would cover NY, NJ, Mass and Maryland. All four states have some sort of magazine restrictions.

Look on the bright side. If the magazine issue bothers you that much you can always find a USPSA 3-gun match to shoot.

Edited October 17, 2007 by rubberneck

[9x45]

Cactus, we have big 3-gun matches here all the time (Area II and California Series). I don't know about the 'off list lower' or even what it means, but there are plenty of us honest to goodness registered CA DOJ legal AR owners with 30 round sticks. Besides the IDPA multi gun rules are going to say 10 in the mag anyway? just like when I shoot my G17 in IPDA.... It just means more reloads and I can leave the 45 round sticks and the Beta Mag at home....

We could invent the 'California Reload' for IDPA multigun. Remove and replace the 30 round stick every 10 rounds. Named after the USPSA 'Arizona Reload' where you threw a loaded mag from your belt on the ground. We could call this new one the ' Defensive Rifle Retained Sequential Tactical Priority Reload' or DRRSTPR for short, pronounced 'Dirstpur'

[scirocco38s]

The mag capacity limitation is just nonsense. There is no good reason, from a tactical or self defense standpoint to download mags and require reloads on a scenario when it isn't really neccessary. I understand that there was ONCE a hi-cap ban and that in order to even the playing field they restricted capacity, but it is now GONE. For shotgun, make it 9 round max in the gun and rifle whatever you want to load and carry.

What is wrong with engaging targets without a damned reload? If you're looking to "test" reload skills, then do it in standards.

Mike

The rules are there to create a level playing field for the largest possible pool of competitors.

At IDPA nationals I was told that 70% of IDPA members were from the northeast which was one of the reasons why it was moved to Pa. I found that number hard to believe but it came from a person who should know so I am prepared to take it at face value. I didn't have the chance to ask what states they considered North East but I am pretty sure that it would cover NY, NJ, Mass and Maryland. All four states have some sort of magazine restrictions.

Look on the bright side. If the magazine issue bothers you that much you can always find a USPSA 3-gun match to shoot.

As previously stated, most 3-gun matches are not uspsa sanctioned, and I dont know where you guys get the info that supports this. Of all the major matches that are 3-gun, only the multigun nationals and some area 3-gun are a uspsa sanctioned and run event. All the others out there are running their own rules(based loosely on uspsa). The truly successful ones are IM3G, SM3G, DPMS and the Fort Benning match are all out there running it thier own way. They all use some kind of unique rules to their own design, but they dont limit magazine capacity. Now Idpa staying true to its roots and keeping the pistol at 10 rounds makes perfect sense as that what it has always been, But the rifle and shotgun are 2 different animals. If making reloads mandatory or is a skill wanted on every stage is what they are trying to accomplish, then state that somewhere in the stage a reload has to be performed. but dont limit mag capacity as it is conter to what 3-gun is about. I have shot several stages where you started with 6 or 8 rounds and made a mag change but it has always been full mags after that. The rules dont level the playing field at all. Certain things such as mag cinches arent legal, everyone I know who has a ar for home defense has 2 mags together in some for and in the gun. If that isnt practical and defensive what is. I have an remington 1100 with a 8 round tube loaded at all times in my closet just for defense. If 70% of the idpa members are from the northeast, then alot of them must also be uspsa members because when big 3-gun matches come up theyre alot of them from the northeast shooting them, and they dont seem to have mag availabilty issues. This notion that a reload is necessary for everyone on every stage is a wierd thing as if I am shooting against all the other esp guns, why do we care how many times the revolver has to reload as they are shooting their own match, as is the cdp and the ssp shooter. If the course of fire is 12 or 14 or 18 rounds shouldnt matter to anyone except the group you are shooting against. And like Benny said, If they are coming from a state that wont allow Normal capacity mags, I will be happy to loan those guys some. If I shoot a match in their state then all of us have to shoot their capacity and we would adapt for that match. This isnt martial arts with guns, its entertainment, because if it was alot of us would be dead. Please dont make rules base on the lowest common denominator.

[rubberneck]

but dont limit mag capacity as it is conter to what 3-gun is about.

Why does IDPA have to follow the crowd when developing 3 gun rules for it's own sport? In case you missed it when IDPA was established it ran counter to practical shooting at the time. I just don't understand the logic that says that IDPA should do what every other three gun match is doing. If they want to develop 3 gun rules that are in keeping with the spirit of current rulebook that's fine with me. I couldn't care less if it violates some unwritten 3 gun ethos. It won't keep me from shooting it and it certainly won't keep the smile off my face as I do it.

[Mike P]

The mag capacity limitation is just nonsense. There is no good reason, from a tactical or self defense standpoint to download mags and require reloads on a scenario when it isn't really neccessary. I understand that there was ONCE a hi-cap ban and that in order to even the playing field they restricted capacity, but it is now GONE. For shotgun, make it 9 round max in the gun and rifle whatever you want to load and carry.

What is wrong with engaging targets without a damned reload? If you're looking to "test" reload skills, then do it in standards.

Mike

The rules are there to create a level playing field for the largest possible pool of competitors.

At IDPA nationals I was told that 70% of IDPA members were from the northeast which was one of the reasons why it was moved to Pa. I found that number hard to believe but it came from a person who should know so I am prepared to take it at face value. I didn't have the chance to ask what states they considered North East but I am pretty sure that it would cover NY, NJ, Mass and Maryland. All four states have some sort of magazine restrictions.

Look on the bright side. If the magazine issue bothers you that much you can always find a USPSA 3-gun match to shoot.

My point was/is that wouldn't the field be just as level if nobody had to reload? I mean if you have an 18 round course and a 20 or 30 round mag, then nobody has to reload.

I have no idea where the bulk of IDPA shooters are, but it would be great if there were more in the northeast. Percentage wise though, it wouldn't matter if ALL the membership were in NJ, it still wouldn't be enough to change their law.

And yes, reloading unecessarily stage after stage does bother me a little. In fact, I'd be much more in favor of the 10/6 mag restrictions if the cof's were also 10/6 max.

Slainte'

Mike

[scirocco38s]

but dont limit mag capacity as it is conter to what 3-gun is about.

Why does IDPA have to follow the crowd when developing 3 gun rules for it's own sport? In case you missed it when IDPA was established it ran counter to practical shooting at the time. I just don't understand the logic that says that IDPA should do what every other three gun match is doing. If they want to develop 3 gun rules that are in keeping with the spirit of current rulebook that's fine with me. I couldn't care less if it violates some unwritten 3 gun ethos. It won't keep me from shooting it and it certainly won't keep the smile off my face as I do it.

I didnt miss it, I have shot idpa since 1998. I have experience with Idpa rules 3-gun and it is failing. I have been trying to explain that what we do is entertainment, if it isnt fun to the people that shoot 3-gun then it probably wont survive. I know for fact that the main reason most of the regular 3-gunners dont shoot it is because of the mag limit in the rifle and shotgun. They never had a problem with the limit in the pistol as it is only 15% of a good 3-gun.

[Cactustactical]

Cactus, we have big 3-gun matches here all the time (Area II and California Series). I don't know about the 'off list lower' or even what it means, but there are plenty of us honest to goodness registered CA DOJ legal AR owners with 30 round sticks. Besides the IDPA multi gun rules are going to say 10 in the mag anyway? just like when I shoot my G17 in IPDA.... It just means more reloads and I can leave the 45 round sticks and the Beta Mag at home....

I wasn't really concerned about the folks in CA when I brought up the questions. I was thinking of all of us out of staters who have a lot of money invested in rifles, shotguns and magazines. They aren't on the CA state run registration list, is it a felony to bring them across or are there caveats (such as mentioned earlier) that would make them legal ? What about an out of stater crossing the border with hi cap mags? If we would cross the border with this stuff, we would possibly be at the mercy of some law enforcement person who might or might not know the law. I heard some stories a while back about people disassembling hi caps while transporting them in CA to use at a match there. No idea if that is true or the rationale behind it, just one example of the things people do because of the restrictive laws.

It's just not worth it for someone who lives outside of CA.

And personally, its really a moot point for me, if the round limits stay as proposed for rifles and shotguns, it not my cup of tea.

[M ammo]

Sorry to have, hit a sour point.

The point is, to make the equipment fair as possible.

Especially for the new guys, the guys, that want to shoot 3 gun but have not been able to buy the equipment. And are still hanging in. until they can save up and upgrade.

These are the people we need to get this sport to grow.

So starting a stage with less than max ammo in your shotgun, to start with.

Makes it just a bit more fair for the new guy, this will not hold back the experienced shooter. Shooting, moving, loading. Is all part of the sport.

Starting with a 10 round mag in you pistol, in a stage that you might have to transition.

Then if you need more ammo re-load to whatever magazine capacity you wish.

Rifle I have shot many stages that are full up,, and stages that limit the number of rounds and you reload or transition as the stage description might state.

AR mags, God I don’t know what to tell you, if you have an AR but can’t get or own a 30 round mag. That is disturbing. I thought we lived in America. That’s another subject.

IDPA has a great scoring system. The other rules are very restrictive, and I know I can live without them in 3 gun.

[benny hill]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denomanator.

[Merlin Orr]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denominator.

........ catering to the lowest common denominator....... Sounds like a Larry the Cable guy audience...... A good place to start a hate rant...(non specific if you please )

[detonics]

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

[ima45dv8]

Good post, Robert.

Glad to have you here.

[Trail3]

In California, we can now own and buy AR's that were not on the banned list of 2000.

But the rifle has to be set up with certian restrictions. There are many grey areas with the CA DOJ Firearms Division.

If it has an open mag well and uses a magazine to load, with a regular mag release, you can not have a

pistol grip. the U-15 stock or a Monster Man grip is what most are going with. If you have a pistol grip,

your mags can only be released by the use of a tool, and is a basic 10 round fixed type, break open top load.

About 40-50,000 OLL's have been sold in the last 2 years.

So, now there are many shooters are in the Ca area who would be interested in 3 gun. But we can not legally buy 20/30 round mags.

We can get all the 10 rounders we want. For all information on the OLL's check out www.calguns.net

Quite a few shooters in our IDPA club have gotten the OLL's and are very interested in 3 gun.

And have started to shoot with the USPSA clubs for 3 gun matches. They just carry a lot of mags or borrow someone's legal

preban 30 rounders.

But we do have the restriction on mag capacity, as do several other states.

In order to attract more shooters who want to, shoot, compete, have fun and be legal that is why I favor the 10 round rifle limit.

Clubs matches in non restriction states could have could have no mag restrictions, but for National/Regional matches, limit to 10 rounds.

[Fireant]

Why not just make the rules to follow what is allowed in the majority of the states, but understand that if you live or shoot in a 10 round state that the game then follows those rules. Why does the CA ban(or any ban for that matter) have to effect me in a free state? Set the rules for the majority of the counrty and understand that in some places you have to limit it to 10 rounds. If that state holds a major match, then you decide if you want to attend or not based on that. Very simple and everyone is happier. If you live in a ban state and want to shoot a match out of state I'm sure people will let you borrow some mags.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Fireant

[Jaxshooter]

Living in Florida where most 3 Gun matches are relativly short range with rifles, this sounds like another good way to practice and get more trigger time . I would prefer full capacity mags but will play either way. I also prefer some type of optic on the rifle.

[M ammo]

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

Robert, you hit the nail on the head.

You don’t have to cater to the lowest denominator. (Larry the cable guy made millions last year)

But a new 3 gunner , (is the guy will end up buying the Benny Hill upper and the 8 round Tube)

Is just a bit intimidated when he shows up to a match.

trying to get new shooters to the range is hard enough, new guys have saved up money, and bought the best equipment they could, afford and that they had the knowledge to buy, and they come to a match thinking, I'm ok, I have pretty good stuff,

They get to the match and look at the toys , others are shooting have,, and see that they are way!! out classed. So the first thing, the new guy sees is that he can't play, with these guys,

Ego busted, Will this shooter come back?

We need that new 3 Gunner. If this sport is to survive.

I have had many new 3 gunners use my equipment, until they can buy their own equipment. just to get them started. That way they can spend their hard earned dollars on what they need, not what they think they need.

Treat them, like friends, and they will be your friend.

[scirocco38s]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denomanator.

Benny, we tried to make them understand, but it wont work.

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

No , when you look at an uspsa ad you look for the things that you say intimidate others. I dont know why you continue to compare to uspsa as most 3-gun is not uspsa sanctioned.(especially the successful ones) And if most of your shooters have a defensive mindset the why would they try and defend themselves and their families with 10 round magazines. True 3-gunners have a different mindset than what idpa is founded on, as a pistol can be defensive but a rifle is more offensive in nature as fewer items stop it that do pistol rounds.

Why not just make the rules to follow what is allowed in the majority of the states, but understand that if you live or shoot in a 10 round state that the game then follows those rules. Why does the CA ban(or any ban for that matter) have to effect me in a free state? Set the rules for the majority of the counrty and understand that in some places you have to limit it to 10 rounds. If that state holds a major match, then you decide if you want to attend or not based on that. Very simple and everyone is happier. If you live in a ban state and want to shoot a match out of state I'm sure people will let you borrow some mags.

You understand this better than the others do.

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

Robert, you hit the nail on the head.

You don’t have to cater to the lowest denominator. (Larry the cable guy made millions last year)

But a new 3 gunner , (is the guy will end up buying the Benny Hill upper and the 8 round Tube)

Is just a bit intimidated when he shows up to a match.

trying to get new shooters to the range is hard enough, new guys have saved up money, and bought the best equipment they could, afford and that they had the knowledge to buy, and they come to a match thinking, I'm ok, I have pretty good stuff,

They get to the match and look at the toys , others are shooting have,, and see that they are way!! out classed. So the first thing, the new guy sees is that he can't play, with these guys,

Ego busted, Will this shooter come back?

We need that new 3 Gunner. If this sport is to survive.

I have had many new 3 gunners use my equipment, until they can buy their own equipment. just to get them started. That way they can spend their hard earned dollars on what they need, not what they think they need.

Treat them, like friends, and they will be your friend.

No he didnt, he danced around it and said the same thing.

When have we discussed anything here other than round count and magazine capacity. Most of the guys that shoot hot high end guns from jp and Benny cant shoot any better than they could when they had their off the rack DPM or Rock River. If you want to keep the equipment cost down that is fine but magazines and round copunt have nothing to do with that. One of the local shooters that competes very well in three gun is shooting a stock bushmaster with a eotech, nothing facy there, not even a free floated forearm. His shotgun is a stock 110 with a mag tube extension and his pistol is a s&w M&P. He doesnt have any of the flash and spanks everyone because he knows where he shoot vs his aim point. In other words he practices. He doesnt have 40 round pistol mags nor 100 round betas, but he hits where he aims and he reloads a shotgun well. He uses 30 round mags except for when he goes prone and then its 20. Most 3-gunners dont look down upon other competitors and are always willing to help a guy out to the point if his rifle dies they loan him a spare or shares. The only true issue for me and others is the 10 round issue. That is not a expensive equipment as 10 round mags are more expensive than 30. Most of the time if a guy quits 3 gun it is a physical reason as the stages are more physical. If you guys are hell bent on the 10 round thing then go ahead as I will be with Benny finding matches on the fun side of the island.