Owen Sparks Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Hello, Those of you familiar with shooting pepper poppers know that they usually take a while to fall after being hit. The fastest way to get one down is to hammer it several times on the way down rather than to shoot it once and wait for it to keel over. As we all know, lead bullets fragment harmlessly against steel under normal circumstances. But what about at obtuse angles like when a bullet hits a popper that is half way down? I decided to do some experimenting to see what would happen. I took a smooth steel target to the range to do some tests. I placed it just a few feet in front of a tall dirt cliff and cocked it back at an angle to simulate a falling popper, then shot it with 200 grain .45 swc. Provided that the angle was slight, the bullets broke up normally. But as I increased the angle of the plate, I found a point somewhere around 45 degrees where the bullet no longer fragmented but skipped off the plate and struck the berm several feet high above the target. Apparently, the bullets come off the target at roughly the same angle that they hit similar to a bank shot in pool. I have no idea how much velocity they loose after contacting the plate but judging by the damage to the dirt berm, they still had much of their original speed. A 200 grain piece of lead does not have to be going very fast to hurt you or break a windshield. They probably still had enough umph to be dangerous within several hundred yards. My conclusion? A falling popper that is shot while halfway down or more will cause bullets to glance off at an up wards angle and is dangerous unless the target is right up against a tall backstop. OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 We have talked about this before here on the Forums. I have not changed my feelings that rearward falling poppers should not be used. With all the problems keeping a gun range open we do not need targets that virtually guarantee rounds leaving the range when used in matches. .02 from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Many clubs are going to forward falling poppers for just that reason. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Why do you think it is faster to shoot the popper several times to knock it down? If your popper is calibrated properly then minor power will knock it down. Seeing that the timer is picking up everyshot, why would you shoot it more than once? If the popper is activating another target, why not shoot a static target while the popper fals over and activates the swing/dropturner? I shoot alot of matches with some excellent shooters and we dont doubletap poppers as we are waisting time that we could be shooting other targets while it is falling. Also remember that not all poppers fall backwards as some ranges require forward falling, so then you are waisting time and ammo and getting beat by the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 A lot of clubs are going to fwd falling poppers as they replace steel or are modifing the poppers they have. I have shot at clubs where double tapping a falling popper is a DQ. COF design can help by presenting the shootes something else to shoot instead of waiting for the popper to do what ever its supposed to do as a activator.----------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Good stage design can remove any benefit to hammering down a popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 We used to hammer poppers down back in the day when shooting open if they were activating a swinger (or something like that) and there was "nothing else to do" between the popper activating the target and the target becoming exposed. I can recall several times hitting a popper 2, 3, sometimes 4 times just trying to drive it down so I could get to another target. Forward falling poppers would take something like this out of play completely. And as Matt said, stage design can help a lot too. It is generally accepted that if you can engage a popper and then take care of other targets while waiting for the activation you do that. It only makes sense, is more efficient, and by virtue of that - quicker. Hitting poppers multiple times was simply a way to get through the stage faster. If you give a better (faster) option, most shooters will take it and eliminate the potential of rounds leaving the range. So, if you're a club that doesn't have or can't get forward falling poppers then stage design becomes that much more important. If you are a club that does have forward falling poppers then you can just poke fun at the shooter who somehow feels compelled to keep the popper standing by shooting it several times. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I have been thinking about this ever since I shot a popper twice indoors and took out a pair of flourescent lights. Initially I thought a frag did the damage but upon inspection there was what appeared to be a full diameter hit on the metal housing. My question: if outdoors, where does this bullet go?..............Although slow, forward falling poppers are the way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Good stage design can remove any benefit to hammering down a popper. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Good stage design can remove any benefit to hammering down a popper. Absolutely. +1 Hammering a nonactivator popper adds to your time with no additional points, and most experienced shooters know this. Poppers should be calibrated to fall with Minor PF ammo at the PF floor. If a shooter's ammo is subminor, the popper shouldn't go down no matter how many times it gets hit, and should still be vertical for each hit. Activator poppers should be in target arrays that give the shooter some points to shoot for while waiting for the hit to take the steel down and then transition to the activated target/prop/whatever. I understand that forward falling poppers get entirely around the issue, and my club intends to test them, but there are practical ways around the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I think they are as likely as not to (literally) shoot a fat guy in the ass if he is up on the rifle range working on the roof of the shelter...and get the club hiring law-dawgs. 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Sparks Posted October 11, 2007 Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 I am the original poster and what prompted me to try this test is that I saw a double popper designed to be a "tie breaker" or a man on man fast draw game. The two poppers were mounted side by side but slightly out of parallel so that they would overlap when they fell. The first one down would be on bottom. The advertizing claimed that hitting the target several times would put it down faster, especially with a minor caliber. It looked dangerous to me so I preformed the above testing and found out that in fact, it was. OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 our range has a tall wooded hill behind the firing line. tall as in 200 + feet up sloped back. The top of hill is 200 yards back from the backstop. You can go to the back of the hill when the range is closed and pick up full size rounds that have not much more than a scratch on them, some of the rounds look like they were just dropped out of the sky. Almost all of it is caused by round "skipping off the ground and thin flying up the hill. The new range owner controls it by placing the targets at and angel so that when shot the bullet passes and hits the backstop and not the ground. Lots of the stages I see set up have the shooter's bullets passing to hit the ground. This is a much bigger problem than rounds going off a popper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mainus Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 It is a match DQ at our club,Schultz's in WI, to double tap a popper. The popper acts as a ramp and that bullet is gone out of the range. We are slowly going to convert over to forward falling poppers. Our club is now surrounded by subdivisions and we have no choice. When we do shoot-offs with the cross poppers, we build a 6' tall wall out of 4x6 to catch any bullets that ramp off of the poppers. I think the forward falling poppers are the way that most clubs will migrate to for the same reason. You have to be able to tell the local city council etc. when you get called in to the meeting that there is no way that bullet came from our range. Trust me I know how those meetings go Now if someone would come up with a fool proof design for the forward falling popper you would have something. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 It is a match DQ at our club,Schultz's in WI, to double tap a popper. The popper acts as a ramp and that bullet is gone out of the range. We are slowly going to convert over to forward falling poppers. Our club is now surrounded by subdivisions and we have no choice. When we do shoot-offs with the cross poppers, we build a 6' tall wall out of 4x6 to catch any bullets that ramp off of the poppers. I think the forward falling poppers are the way that most clubs will migrate to for the same reason. You have to be able to tell the local city council etc. when you get called in to the meeting that there is no way that bullet came from our range. Trust me I know how those meetings go Now if someone would come up with a fool proof design for the forward falling popper you would have something. Tom The poppers in the images below have proved to be totally reliable for 15+ years. I've also added a link to the IPSC GV where 2 further designs are shown: Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Here's the link to a FFP thread I started a while back. It has pic's of a bunch of different FFP mechanisms. I like the ones we use in CO, very versatile. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...lling&st=25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 We have talked about this before here on the Forums. I have not changed my feelings that rearward falling poppers should not be used. With all the problems keeping a gun range open we do not need targets that virtually guarantee rounds leaving the range when used in matches..02 from me. Make that .04. I agree with Merlin on this. If your club is planning to buy poppers, be sure they buy forward falling ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Good stage design can remove any benefit to hammering down a popper. For the most part! I remember calling a shot a couple times where I wasn't sure with the sights/dot were/was when the shot broke so I did a make up only to find that I had hit with the first. It doesn't happen very often but it does happen. I shot a match where driving down a RFP was a match DQ. I can STILL remember the sight picture I had on that one Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 USPSA recomends forward falling poppers rule 4.3.1.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Come to Missoula and shoot poppers as many times as you like as one of our Nationals CRO's did when he was upset. No DQ for mutiple hits just a lot of laughs. The only problem is the deer coming down to see what all the noise is. We usually use a forward falling popper (regular popper turned backwards) to challenge a shooter to think about what they are doing. Put a forward falling popper as the 2nd or 3rd target in a row of 6 and watch the master class shooters stand them up. C & D shooters hear the clang then look to see what happened. Until USPSA starts buying steel for all clubs it will stay recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 ffpp can be dangerous: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek45 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 If you've ever fired tracer rounds, you know rounds can skip off the ground and fly in all finds of crazy directions. video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Come to Missoula and shoot poppers as many times as you like as one of our Nationals CRO's did when he was upset. Personally, I take shooters aside for a little one on one when they do that on steel or paper. Pulling the trigger out of frustration or anger is bad, bad, bad. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 If you've ever fired tracer rounds, you know rounds can skip off the ground and fly in all finds of crazy directions.video that is so kewl! die pepper poppers die! lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 It is a match DQ at our club,Schultz's in WI, to double tap a popper. You are talking about USPSA matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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