Grip Pressure

[benos]

This thread was lost in the conversion.

Grip pressure

Steve Anderson

Grip the gun with about the same force you'd use to hold a hammer.

Many new shooters are advised by gun store employees to grip HARD, and this may help overcome the initial fear of recoil, but a looser grip will almost always produce a better return to the original point of aim.

Fire 6 shots into the berm with varying grip pressures and watch the guns arc and where it returns.

A looser grip will also improve trigger control. For fun, CLENCH all but the trigger finger of your strong hand.

How much dexterity does your trigger finger have with all the other fingers mashed into a fist?

Not much.

George D

Your right Steve, grip tension does relate to tension in the trigger finger. Care needs to be taken that while adopting a relaxed grip a firmness in the wrist is maintained.

Another interesting experiment is to vary the grip pressure while shooting on a target and observe the difference in impact point.

SiG Lady

"A looser grip will also improve trigger control." (SA)

Boy, you've got that one right!!...

Maintaining a "firmness in the wrist" (GD) is essential and doesn't necessarily mean a white knuckle ride on your gun.

But I dunno about that "to hold a hammer" stuff, though. Have you ever put down 5/8" plywood flooring by hand...??!! I would never hold a gun as tight as that!! :shocked:

SiG Lady

As a matter of fact--at the time--I did get the heavy-duty hammer. It was the only way I could get the job done.

(No need to delete your remark!)

benos talks about this relaxed, neutral grip pressure stuff on page 86 (and no doubt elsewhere therein) of The Book.

My next/current big challenge is to find a way to make a one-handed grip work as "relaxedly" as the two-handed thing I've finally figured out.

Erik Warren

If your sight (especially an electronic dot) doesn't consistently track straight up and down, you are probably gripping the gun with too much tension in one or both hands, and/or unevenly. Relax.

[TDDude]

I had started out with what I thought was a firm controlled grip until a good friend suggested a change. My friend shoots expert with the H(Houston)PD and uses what he calls a modified weaver stance. The gun hand (right) is relaxed with the gun arm elbow locked. The shoulders are at a 5 degree (or so) angle or so with the feet shoulder width and the right foot slightly behind. The left hand covers the fingers of the right and pulls the gun towards the shooter locking it into place against the right palm. The thumb of the left hand is pressed against the frame just under the slide. On my pistol, my thumb is against the slide release. This creates a very firm grip yet allows the right hand and trigger finger to remain relaxed. This is probaby a very crappy explanation but if done correctly, allows for very little muzzle flip and as a result, transfers most of the recoil to the shoulder.

One of the main reasons that semi-auto pistols jam, especially the 1911, is that the muzzle flip actually is what causes the problem. A firm foundation on the pistol helps keep this problem to a minimum.

Like I said, this has been a change for me and has taken some getting used to. Right now, it is causing me to shoot consistently low and mostly it's due to my right hand not being relaxed enough. I'm still working through it but even though I am low, my groups are significantly tighter than they were before.

[mcoliver]

Dude, the key is to achieve neutrality. Holding the gun with just enough pressure to keep it on target long enough for you to break the shot, no more, no less. Without excess tension you'll notice you can shoot longer while remaining very consistent, being able to hit the spot you want all the time, everytime. Be safe.

[shred]

A killer crushing grip can be overestimated in importance. I think Brian has some good words on this..

I did a demo in my Glock class today shooting a G17 with only my weak hand thumb and forefinger holding the gun and working the trigger with my strong hand trigger finger. The point of the demo is to show that the gun really wants to recoil and then return to where it was, without a whole lot of grip. You can shoot some amazingly good groups like this.

[David Olhasso]

All this talk of a relatively loose grip is interesting. Personally, I grip the gun harder than most. It is also interesting to note that Jarret grips the gun so hard that he has broken several swenson thumb safeties. The bottom line is that each shooter must analyze what grip, what stance, what gun, what sights, what load, what holster, etc, etc, work best for them.

The trick is to keep learning. Never be afraid to change something about your shooting and then analyze whether the result is good or bad.

[TBF]

David,

You are correct in saying " The trick is to keep learning ".

Try the grip BE describes, Iv'e not mastered it yet, but it shows immense promise.

The neutrality thing is some what difficult to achieve, keeping thumbs off gun helps alot.

I am still learning, and always will be.

Travis F.

[shred]

After writing a bunch (which I've now edited out), I vaguely remembered some good points about this from the old board. Found 'em with Google (go here for the full-meal-deal, including a rare appearance by TGO)

-- Posted by benos on 12:25 pm on April 1, 2002

We gotta remember The Great One is a big strong fella, who shoots pretty much constantly. Meaning, his grip is rock-solid. The stronger your grip, the harder you can grip and not introduce tremors or jerkiness associated with over straining muscles. All the top shooters have very strong grips; increasing your grip strength can't hurt. But, just don't think that by crushing the life out of your blaster you'll necessarily shoot better. If so, then big Lou Ferrigno (sp) would be the TGE (the greatest ever.) Like the The Great One said, at that point, timing becomes a factor. And you learn timing by paying attention to exactly what the gun is doing at all times.

From some rock climbing experience, if you're hanging on at 95% grip strength, you have much less control and tire much faster than if you're at 50%, no matter what the actual gripping force is. Perhaps this is why telling newer shooters to relax their grip helps them until they build the squeezing muscles needed.

[benos]

A good way to think of applied effort in various activities is to ask yourself - How would my grip be if I just gripped the gun as hard as I could. Or how hard would I throw this Frisbee golf disc if I threw it as hard as I could. Then start experimenting. Tell yourself to grip at 90% of max strength, then 80%, and so on. And don't forget to do this with various target presentations.

See what works best for you.

be

[Mistral404]

I was shooting a fun match recently. I remark to a fellow shooter that Shooter A had very little muzzle flip. He gun stayed pretty level. He was shooting a custom STI .40. I first I said he must have a very reduce power load. Shooter B told me he was probably at a power factor of 165. I then watched shooter B shoot his .40. It had more muzzle flip than Shooter A. The three of us starting talking about muzzle flip with directly lead to gripping the gun.

Shooter A said he used a firm grip, shaking my hand he demostrated the firmness of his grip. While it was not a bone crusher it was a very very strong grip. Much stronger than what I typically use in my shooting

The next three stages I tried to emulate the firmness of Shooter A's grip. This is what I noticed:

1. The muzzle flip was significantly reduced.

2. My returned to the natural POA was was quicker and clearer.

3. My accuracy improved signficantly

4. My elapsed time between shots slowed. but my overall course speed was about the same. No double taps, more of shoot, sight picture, shoot sequence

5. Every missed A or missed target was the result of the grip becoming less firm and hurrying of the second shot.

I concluded that I needed to spend time practicing with a much firmer grip than I had been using. The firmer grip really opened my eyes to what I was seeing and doing with my second shot.

[MattBurkett]

I have found that I change grip pressure depending on the type of shooting I am doing. I have also found that I change my trigger control types dependant on target difficulty. THAT was interesting. Still figuring that one out.

I believe the most difficult thing for most people is the separation of the trigger control from the rest of the grip and recoil control. Generally you will find that the harder people grip, the worse their trigger control is and their flinch can get amplified. I think that after learning to shoot at the upper levels of the sport, the separation of trigger control can allow for a harder grip.

Okay this is interesting to figure out how to put down in print! I think the general problem with most shooters is their inability to effectively time the gun. I think that there is a difference between applied grip strength and tension*. Most shooters have WAY to much tension and this has a drastic effect on trigger control. Generally when they find they don't have to (read can't) control the recoil and relax and let it happen all of a sudden a huge new world of capabilities opens up to them. What happens with my students when we do the timing drills is that it brings their focus back to the gun and trains their SC to handle the recoil. Try timing the gun with different grip pressures and see what happens with your recoil control and trigger control.

* I know that will go over most peoples heads.

[shred]

Hmm.. Matt's got me thinking.. (eeeee!) anyway, the other night I was out at the local Dave & Busters and was playing one of the shooting games (about half the games in there seem to be shooting games... I wonder why), and noticed I was squeezing the heck out of the little plastic gun, as if it was about to go recoiling all over the place. Hmm.

[cpty1]

Some of you know I've been playing around with an open gun for the first time in 10 years or so. During this time I've been constantly reminded of how the dot allows me to see much more, much more easily. One thing I noticed the other day after having not shot that particular gun in a couple of weeks or so was the dot no longer tracked vertically for me the way it had been doing, but tracked in more of a 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock pattern. I relaxed my grip on the gun and immediately the gun (dot) started not only tracking vertically once again in a 12 to 6 fashion, but was also much flatter with less overall dot movement. It was an enlightening experiment changing various grip pressures in my strong and support hands and seeing the impact it had on the movement of the gun as reflected by the movement of the dot.

[ErikW]

cpty1, several of us new and/or less-experienced Open gunners have noticed the same thing going from Limited to Open guns. The harder you grip, the worse the dot movement. Relax your grip and it settles and becomes more predictable.

[45gunner]

Tried the neutral grip today after reading all your post. I was able to shoot a five shot group that measures 3 inches at 25 yrds free style. I could not shoot it consistantly but about every third or fourth time. This is my best groups every. The guns would always return to my POA.

Thanks for all the tips.

Edited January 22, 2007 by 45gunner

[Malak]

I have been experimenting with grip pressure, and a very good shooter told me to startout by gripping the gun as hard as you possible can, then release the grip to the point where you holding the with just enough pressure so it does not fall from your hands. Then fire two rounds... they gun should almost come out of you hands, then gradually increase the pressure, until you find the point of dimenishing returns on how hard you grip the gun. I have tried it a few times now (starting at like 10% grip strength and working up). It is pretty interesting to see that up to a certain point, no matter how hard you grip, it does not track any better. This drill gave me a very good reference of how hard I need to grip (which is not that hard).

Matt also had a good point, if there is a long difficult shot, I will normally loosen the grip up a little more then normally, to help increase my chance of hitting it.

[Robco]

I have found that I change grip pressure depending on the type of shooting I am doing. I have also found that I change my trigger control types dependant on target difficulty. THAT was interesting. Still figuring that one out.

I believe the most difficult thing for most people is the separation of the trigger control from the rest of the grip and recoil control. Generally you will find that the harder people grip, the worse their trigger control is and their flinch can get amplified. I think that after learning to shoot at the upper levels of the sport, the separation of trigger control can allow for a harder grip.

Okay this is interesting to figure out how to put down in print! I think the general problem with most shooters is their inability to effectively time the gun. I think that there is a difference between applied grip strength and tension*. Most shooters have WAY to much tension and this has a drastic effect on trigger control. Generally when they find they don't have to (read can't) control the recoil and relax and let it happen all of a sudden a huge new world of capabilities opens up to them. What happens with my students when we do the timing drills is that it brings their focus back to the gun and trains their SC to handle the recoil. Try timing the gun with different grip pressures and see what happens with your recoil control and trigger control.

* I know that will go over most peoples heads.

Matt,

I agree. What I have found, in USPSA fast follow up shot (splits) type shooting, is that when I focus on a very strong WEAK hand grip my split groups tighten up to very tight, always. Doing so does not affect my strong hand or trigger control per se, but having an extremely strong WEAK hand grip makes up for poor trigger control so well that it is almost unbelievable. Stoeger wrote that and I concur fully. Not talking about bullseye shooting here, so the WEAK hand grip has a big influence on split speeds (recoil management) and accuracy (compensates for imperfect trigger control).

This is so important and effective for me that I literally make it my second Conscious Thought when starting a stage, right along with Call every shot.

By the way Matt, I have watched your great training DVDs hundreds of times, while reloading, in the last 4 years of my USPSA career. I can recommend them highly to anyone wanting to establish a sound foundation in USPSA competition shooting. Hope to see you in person some time down in Mesa!

Thanks

[titandriver]

Ummmm…you realize that Burkett post was from 2003 yes?

[cnote]

.

[Robco]

Yes, I did not care that it was an old post. Hopefully Matt will see it. I have not met him despite all the time I spend in Mesa. Anyway, the subject is always timeless.

[nitrohuck]

One shooter at the matches I go to told me that the second the buzzer goes off to simply think about your left hand (support hand, I am a righty).

When you draw, your right hand already knows what to do, take that part for granted and focus on your left hand coming up into the perfect grip and getting a really good firm hold.

Same goes for reloads, it's all in the left hand. After he said those words to me it really changed my whole perspective and produced much faster results. The two things I focus on in dry and life fire: left hand, and not dropping my head to the sights, but bringing the sights up to my line of vision.

[Wesquire]

Unless it is detrimental to your speed or accuracy, there's no good reason to have to back off on your grip strength.

[Robco]

A very powerful, tight weak-hand grip makes up for a LOT of poor trigger control. No doubt about this. In my own shooting, it has been proven time and time again. Whenever I have very tight pairs, like 2 inch group or less on targets, it is due to weak-hand grip being much stronger than most can imagine. And it does not affect my strong hand grip, neutrality, or trigger finger dexterity at all negatively.

[Wesquire]

Yeah, there's a reason you can see the forearms straining in every top competitor. Ben Stoeger talks about gripping so hard that he can take skin off his dominant hand and Bob Vogel trained to #3 CoC if I remember right.

[Robco]

Yeah, there's a reason you can see the forearms straining in every top competitor. Ben Stoeger talks about gripping so hard that he can take skin off his dominant hand and Bob Vogel trained to #3 CoC if I remember right.

Yes. Angus Hobdell says he almost "throttles" the gun he grips it so hard with his weak hand. But it should still be reiterated that this must be accomplished without introducing adverse tension and problems into the body or gun. Gripping hard and maintaining a good, stable platform are NOT mutually exclusive.

Stoeger is the one who made the point that the strong, weak-hand grip will compensate for poor trigger control. And of course, poor trigger control is probably the MAIN problem with most shooters' accuracy.

[Logger]

Another thing is that the trigger finger should touch no other part of the gun but the trigger. Not even a little bit. Otherwise, it will move the gun as it moves the trigger.

Sound elementary, but it is amazing how much of the gun that some trigger fingers are touching,