Moved to the Moderator Forum:2010 Pan American Shotgun Championship

[RiggerJJ]

Keep in mind that a BIG reason to sign up for this match is you do not have to set targets!

In no way do I want to minimize the contribution that the 4H Clubs of Kentucky will provide to the match, but I am hoping the BIG reason to come shoot this match will be the outstanding shotgun challenge and the high level of competition. I am including a comment that Neil Beverly from England posted on the IPSC Global Village forum on April 30th:

Actually I just finished [approving] the final stage (of 30) only a few minutes ago.

This is not a match for the faint hearted. Grown men will cry. I can see it sapping energy from one and all.

In truth, if it ends up on the ground as well as it looks it might, then it will be one hell of a match. I can't wait!

For those who are unaware, Neil is the IPSC Shotgun Rules Committee Chairman & the IPSC Shotgun Course Review Chairman. In that role, he has had a hand in the approval of the courses of fire for all the Level 3 and Level 4 shotgun matches held world wide. As part of my reply, I wrote "I cannot tell you how pleased I am with the compliments from Neil Beverley, who has certainly seen a lot of shotgun stages in his time with IPSC."

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Match

Co-Match Director

DAMN the scheduling GODS for putting this match so close to RM3G that I cannot attend...I have to put RM3G on the ground that week...

yall have fun, without me...

jj

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, from what I've read in the rules, flitecontrol is OK, but then thats my interpretation of the rules.

trapr

[Charles Bond]

Kurt, from what I've read in the rules, flitecontrol is OK, but then thats my interpretation of the rules.

trapr

I will be at the match with a couple of cases of federal flight control buck. The post here is the first I had heard that anyone desired to ban it.

[CastIron]

there is a thread on the Global Village on the subject http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=10754 about post #7 or so

gm.

[A33435]

I am sorry to read some of you didnt hear earlier about this subject.

To quote Linda posting about Federal Flight Control buckshot at GV april 17th ;

I am trying to contact several people - Range Master, Gamaliel (ammo distributor) & the webmaster for Gamaliel to remove the listing. This will be fairly easy to fix for anyone who has pre-ordered this ammo. From the Ammo order page:

Exchange and Refund Policy:

Changes to orders may be made before the June 15th deadline with no penalty. Any order cancellation will be subject to a 10% cancellation fee. No refunds or exchanges will be permitted after August 1, 2010.

and

If you find that your pre-ordered ammunition will not cycle, eject, or properly function in your weapon, we will exchange it for another brand or load as needed. Customer will be responsible for any price differences when exchanging ammo, and we will only allow credit for complete boxes in good condition, factory packaging.

Obviously, we will also allow exchanges this early for ammo that is being withdrawn as official match ammo. I will get a list of anyone who ordered the Federal Flight Control buckshot from Gamaliel and send an email message to let them know they need to select different ammo -- I cannot assume everyone reads this forum.

And thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

[Chris]

Pat,

Kurt Miller, Dave Neth, Phil Strader, Dan Horner, Taran Butler, Carl Carbon, Ben Fortin, Rob Romero, Craig Underdown, to name a few top US guys are all shooting Standard Semi.

Last time I spoke to Kurt the teams are being finalised, but your standard semi shooters are there strong I understand

Mike thanks I think you are the only one that has put me on a list, but don't forget Jermy Parker he has finally got a Benelli. I kind of like the team Rock Castle idea my self.

About time too... Funny how it had to come down to his wife getting fedup with his other gun and finally "forcing" him to get a Benelli

Oh, and dont forget Chris S, he's also pretty darn good with a shotgun...

Thanks gose. I'm interested if there is a Rock Castle team.

[bigbrowndog]

could someone list the ruling that addresses the ammunition restriction for federal flite control because I have not found it!!!!! and if it is strictly based on someones personal opinion or dislike for the ammunition, then this completely BS, and yet another issue of personal opinion disrupting normal common sense rulings.

trapr

[stormbringer]

With regard to the Birdshot stages.

I note that on the ammunition website most of the brands offer 7 1/2 or 8 shot size while a few offer those in addtion to #5 and #6.

In my neck of the woods we use 7 1/2 for all our birdshot shooting.........while my east coast friends tend to move towards #4 and #5.

What is the situation for this match? Will the steel be doable with 7 1/2 or should I opt for a larger pellet?

[LChico]

I am sorry to read some of you didnt hear earlier about this subject.

To quote Linda posting about Federal Flight Control buckshot at GV april 17th ;

I am trying to contact several people - Range Master, Gamaliel (ammo distributor) & the webmaster for Gamaliel to remove the listing. This will be fairly easy to fix for anyone who has pre-ordered this ammo. From the Ammo order page:

Exchange and Refund Policy:

Changes to orders may be made before the June 15th deadline with no penalty. Any order cancellation will be subject to a 10% cancellation fee. No refunds or exchanges will be permitted after August 1, 2010.

and

If you find that your pre-ordered ammunition will not cycle, eject, or properly function in your weapon, we will exchange it for another brand or load as needed. Customer will be responsible for any price differences when exchanging ammo, and we will only allow credit for complete boxes in good condition, factory packaging.

Obviously, we will also allow exchanges this early for ammo that is being withdrawn as official match ammo. I will get a list of anyone who ordered the Federal Flight Control buckshot from Gamaliel and send an email message to let them know they need to select different ammo -- I cannot assume everyone reads this forum.

And thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

Okay, everyone PLEASE relax. Since that post appeared on Gloval Village, we have confirmed the fact is that this buckshot is legal for paper targets. The only issue is steel. If you will give me some time, I will post a more detailed response later.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

[bigbrowndog]

thanks Linda you were answering while I was posting the same thing!!

trapr

Edited June 28, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[kurtm]

Yeah a LOT more detailed explaination will be nice. The last time this was run by me was a total ban....because it could get mixed in with "regular" buckshot in a steel stage and therefore it must be disallowed for all match shooting. So?? It seems that this is fairly obvious...it isn't specifically "baned" in the lattest version of the rules and Linda is the M.D. how about a quick yes or no. No detailed explaination needed latter. Is it, or isn't it. KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

also knowing how much steel will be shot with B.S. would be nice if we should need to bring 2 different types??

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Just because I am too dumb to know, could someone please explain to me what makes anyone to ban a specific type of buck shot to be used with steel targets. It has been a long time since I took physics but my memory is that the lead shot used in brand x is the same lead used in flight control. Is it becasue it is so powerful that the energy upon which a single pellet impacts is more than that of a 38 super? Even if the stated reason is "misguided", someone clue me in.

Also you need to understand that most of Europe looks at rules differently than that which is the tradition in the US. In our county that which is not specifically forbidden is allowed. In the old country, unless it is allowed it is forbidden. Think about that on the 4th of July.

[LChico]

With regard to the Birdshot stages.

I note that on the ammunition website most of the brands offer 7 1/2 or 8 shot size while a few offer those in addtion to #5 and #6.

In my neck of the woods we use 7 1/2 for all our birdshot shooting.........while my east coast friends tend to move towards #4 and #5.

What is the situation for this match? Will the steel be doable with 7 1/2 or should I opt for a larger pellet?

From Appendix D5 in the Shotgun Rules posted on the IPSC website & the Pan American Shotgun website:

General Ammunition requirements:

1. Minimum Power Factor = 480

2. Minimum shot weight = No

3. Minimum caliber = 20 gauge / 20 bore

4. Length = No restrictions

5. Factory produced ammunition only = No, Home loads are acceptable

6. Lead shot = Permitted subject to local environmental restrictions

7. Bismuth shot = Permitted

8. Tungsten Based shot = Permitted for paper, frangible and synthetic targets only

9. Steel shot = Permitted for paper, frangible and synthetic targets only

10. Metal piercing = Prohibited

11. Incendiary = Prohibited

12. Tracer = Prohibited

13. Wad = It will be permissible for a match organizer to require the use of fiber wads only for environmental reasons but such requirement must be notified in advance of the match dates

Acceptable Birdshot Sizes

Shot diameters of 3.5 mm to 2.0mm (.138 inches to .08 inches) are all acceptable.

Taking USA shot sizes as a nominal guide then birdshot sizes of 3 to 9 are all acceptable.

Local equivalents to this are acceptable also e.g. for the UK shot sizes 2 to 9 are acceptable

For reference, the requirements for calibration of poppers (by match officials when a challenge is made) on any Birdshot Stages:

Diameter of shot to be between 2.54mm (0.10 inch) – 2.28 mm (0.09 inch) & Max weight of Cartridge 28.3 grams (1 ounce).

The manufacturer’s stated velocity is to be less than 1300 fps - (This equates to a

maximum

PF of 568).

As you can see, the steel should go down with your favorite load. Just as a 9mm pistol with a power factor around 115 to 120 is used to calibrate steel at a pistol match, relatively "light" loads are used to make sure the steel falls at a shotgun match.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

[LChico]

Just because I am too dumb to know, could someone please explain to me what makes anyone to ban a specific type of buck shot to be used with steel targets. It has been a long time since I took physics but my memory is that the lead shot used in brand x is the same lead used in flight control. Is it becasue it is so powerful that the energy upon which a single pellet impacts is more than that of a 38 super? Even if the stated reason is "misguided", someone clue me in.

I have copied some details from the Global Village Forum. The following quote is from Neil Beverley

(February 2007 ruling) The IPSC Rules Committee agreed to a slightly modified form of words for the "special" shotshell issue. This was then submitted to the President's Council / IPSC Executive Council for approval. The net result is that the interpretations will become live and fully applicable in the next few days, i.e. 7 days after they are published on the IPSC website.

Basically, we have chosen to not attempt to write a definition to encompass all cartridges at this time but instead to highlight the IPSC belief that this cartridge type: "are usually considered unsuitable for shooting at metal targets".

The committee felt that if the vast bulk of the shot were still enclosed at 5m, the minimum distance stated for shooting at metal targets, then the cartridge was most likely to be a problem irrespective of velocity and shot type. At the end of the day this will be enforced at match level.

============================================================================================

Rule 5.5.6 gives authority to withdraw ammunition considered unsafe.

In respect of Rule 5.5.6, Rule 2.1.3.1 establishes a minimum distance for shooting birdshot or buckshot cartridges in conjunction with metal targets. The distance has been established based on cartridges using conventional wads. Certain specialized cartridges use wads that enclose the pellets in a cup or cylinder. Competitors are advised these specialized cartridges are usually considered unsuitable for shooting at metal targets per Rule 5.5.6.

In respect of Appendix D5, “Birdshot” and “Buckshot” are ammunition types where the shot contained therein easily separates. Any compound or substance, such as glue or resin, that binds the shot together is deemed to be in contravention of the definition of these ammunition types. In addition such treatment may render these cartridge types subject to the provisions of Rules 5.5.6 and 10.5.15.

This interpretation does not refer to regular loose compound buffering material, which may improve pattern performance but that does not bind (stick) the pellets together.

In response to a question from Trapr regarding buckshot on paper, Neil Beverley replies

This interpretation has never once affected shooting at paper targets. However, this applies only to stages consisting of solely paper targets. On mixed metal and paper target stages the interpretation will apply for the whole stage.

Although there is no reason to invoke Rule 5.5.6 when shooting stages consisting solely of paper targets it could still apply if the range officials, particularly the RM, consider that the area or backstop behind the targets is unsuitable.

Yeah a LOT more detailed explaination will be nice. The last time this was run by me was a total ban....because it could get mixed in with "regular" buckshot in a steel stage and therefore it must be disallowed for all match shooting. So?? It seems that this is fairly obvious...it isn't specifically "baned" in the lattest version of the rules and Linda is the M.D. how about a quick yes or no. No detailed explaination needed latter. Is it, or isn't it. KurtM

I sent a message to Larry Houck (who was handling stage design) back in April of this year, when this issue was brought up on Global Village. His reply:

(email message from Larry regarding buckshot issue)

Not sure what Neil's concern is about because we are not shooting any buckshot at steel. Everything I read in the rules concerns buckshot at steel not at cardboard or other paper targets.

Larry Houck

So the quick answer is that there is NOT a total ban. It is NOT restricted in all match shooting. I understand that a specific match may have made that decision in the past, but it is not an absolute requirement.

However, when I reviewed the approved stages today, there is one that has steel targets & requires buckshot. I am trying to contact the stage designer (Larry in New Mexico), the IPSC official that approved the stages (Neil in England) & the Range Master (Myro in the Philippines). I would like to get this modified to either make the stage all paper, or change the ammunition requirements for this stage.

Kurt, you have been around IPSC matches long enough to know that "safety rulings" are made by the Range Master - not the Match Director. Because this particular restriction was prompted by "safety" concerns, I needed to contact the Range Master for the Pan Am. My Range Master is in the Philippines. When this topic came up between noon & 4PM, it was midnight to 4AM in the Philippines. I didn't think I would get a very civil response if I woke him in the middle of the night. Hence the delay. Sorry if that ruffled feathers.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

Edited June 29, 2010 by LChico

[LChico]

Is Federal Flight Control Buck Shot going to be allowed? I know Neil Beverly wants to ban it in IPSC Europe. KurtM

I'm a little confused: why would one brand of buck shot not be allowed?

And I've seen a few references to chrono? How is that going to work? When I load up for a match I bring 4 or 5 different loads of ammo, in shot, buck, and slugs.

Is this match going to be some kind of technical nightmare or is it going to be about shooting targets and getting hits?

I hope your first question about "allowed ammunition" was answered in the previous 2 posts. If not, please email me or post any additional questions.

Minimum Power Factor = 480. There is no "maximum" power factor nor is there a range of power factors, like with pistol ammunition. <correction - as N. Beverley points out later in this thread - the maximum PF is 750> Calculations: weight of projectiles (grains) x velocity (feet per second) divided by 1000). For the quick math, a one ounce (437 grain) shotshell needs a velocity of only 1100 to hit that minimum power factor. If you are seriously under that number, you will not be knocking down much steel in the match (see my response to Stormbringer earlier).

Chrono is by random selection. Current plans are to select 10% of the shooters (one name drawn randomly from each squad of ten). If the name drawn is a shooter who purchased match ammo, they are exempt from chrono. If the shooter purchased ammo elsewhere, or is using hand loads, the match will collect a sample of 8 rounds (all 8 birdshot, or all 8 buckshot or all 8 slugs - not a mixed sample) and ask the shooter to report to chrono.

The entire procedure for chrono is spelled out on page 14 (section 5.6) of the Shotgun rules - posted on the IPSC website, as well as the Pan Am website. Trust me that I intend for this match to be about speed & accuracy with your shotgun. Larry and I did not spend all our free time for over a year to give our friends a miserable experience. I am doing my best to keep the "technical nightmare" stuff to a minimum.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

Edited June 29, 2010 by LChico

[Charles Bond]

Thanks for the updates on Federal Flight Control Wads. From this thread what I understand is IPSC thinks it is OK for all the pellets of a buck shot load to hit the steel target but for whatever reason they just do not want it to hit all at one time in one place like a slug might. Maybe they fear it tears up steel but it does not seem to affect mine.

[Neil Beverley]

Who so personal, guys?

A few facts.

Firstly, Linda makes a slight error in that there is a maximum PF of 750. Rule 5.5.6.3.

I note Linda's comment about trying to change the ammunition requirements for Stage 4 but the problem isn't whether it is buckshot or birdshot the problem lies with the delivery system. The subject rule is 5.5.6.2.

Further history on the rule.

During the Europeans in 2006 it was noted that a certain type of cartridge (birdshot) was causing significant damage to metal targets. Investigations tracked it down to an Italian brand. It had been thought it might have been an "exotic" custom design for the match but it turned out to be a special cartridge for long distance hunting shots. The concept being to hold the shot in the cup for a significantly greater distance. The result being that for a great many targets it was a consolidated mass of shot hitting the targets. Please see the attached images to view the damage to the targets.

Bent Pepper Popper Images.pdf

On the image on page 2 you can just make out the round bumps (2) on the back of the target cause by the subject cartridges. These in addition to the general buckling of the steel.

That type of cartridge was immediately banned (from further use) at the match under Rule 5.5.6.

At the next regular meeting of the Rules Committee (Feb 2007) the subject cartridges and the general design and concept of this type of cartridge was discussed. Myro Lopez was also present and he had been the RM at ESC06. The evidence was reviewed and after due discussion it was decided that this type of cartridge wasn't suitable for IPSC stages when metal targets were being used. The reasons being a potential safety problem. Mike Voigt, who chaired the meeting, then drafted a new interpretation for adoption. This was presented to the IPSC President's Council and in turn to the IPSC Exec who approved the immediate adoption of the interpretation in accordance with the rules. The interpretation was further approved by the IPSC Regions at the 2007 IPSC Assembly. The interpretation was then converted to a full rule for inclusion in the 2009 rulebook and approved at the IPSC Assembly in 2008.

The IPSC rulebook does not (can not) single out any manufacturer or brand of cartridge. Rule 5.5.6 was scripted to have a wide coverage of specialised cartridges (and/or specialised wads) that may pose a safety problem in conjunction with metal targets.

On the Global Village I didn't make a ruling on these cartridges for the PanAm, I simply gave some well intended advice AFTER a member had identified the cartridges as a potential problem. I wrote:

Neil S is correct and the Federal Flight Control System is likely to be a problem.

<snip>

It is up to the RM on the day but quite frankly I cannot advise that you risk using these cartridges, I can see them being banned at the match.

So please don't try to present this as me being on some sort of crusade. Either in Europe or elsewhere. And if it rains tomorrow it isn't my fault either.

And let's be honest, it's not as though there aren't other cartridge choices that could be used instead. The world hasn't ended.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Neil Beverley

[bigbrowndog]

Well Neil, its raining right now and I'm holding you responsible, so you better bring some swag over to make up for it.!!!!

I didn't think there was a problem with FFC, but had forgotten the paper/steel portion of the ruling, personally I can't see a reason for using oobuck on steel, when #4 does so much better, unless the COF specifically calls for it. As for the damage on steel the assumption is not without its issues,.........do we KNOW!!! the condition of the steel prior to its use at ESC06??? do we KNOW its hardness rating???? Do we KNOW its prior life useage??? personally the steel in question looks "old" and "battered" from previous use and abuse, so is it FAIR to base the ruling or assumption on a target of unknown quality???

I know of many clubs and ranges that use targets that are well past their effective life, but that does not keep them from being used. Too many people feel that steel targets are a lifetime target, this is not true, they have a life expectancy, and abuse shortens that life. So if the decision to eliminate certain ammunitions was based on improper or faulty testing perhaps it should be looked at more closely under better parameters, or perhaps a new rule affecting abused target useage should be implemented instead.

See you soon, and the I'll buy the first round if you can produce "flosie"

trapr

[Neil Beverley]

00 buckshot can't be specified, only the max number of pellets. If you could get No 4 buck with just 9 pellets and if it could make factor then you're good to go.

If the stage only uses metal targets then there can be no restriction on the number of pellets.

So, all metal targets + buckshot? Use No. 4 buck - be my guest.

The only reason we allow the number of pellets to be restricted is for practical match expediency reasons (patching). If targets are disposable (so no patching) then there is no reason to restrict the number of pellets.

It's all in the rules. Simples.

I'll try to remember to dig out a Flossie for you and you most definitely owe me at least one beer.

Do you have an umbrella?

Edited June 29, 2010 by Neil Beverley

[bigbrowndog]

I have an umbrella, but its hard to render aid to a patient, or man a firehose when you're holding one, so I have to use my rain coat instead.

I owe you a beer??????????? I think ukpsa still owes me from the shield DQ????

well i did get pretty sauced on everyone else's quid after that so maybe I do owe you one!!!!

see you soon, when do you get here???

trapr

[Charles Bond]

Larry/Linda:

Where does this leave us? Do we have a stage where we engage steel with buckshot and if so are you going to replace steel with paper? And if the rules do not specify what brand of ammo we are even discussing, how are we as shooters supposed to know whether our buckshot is legal on steel or not? Based on Neil's post Federal Flight Control may or may not come within the scope of this rule.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles, it is a non-issue. just trust me on this, what you have will be just fine. trust me, i'm in the circle of trust!!!!!

Trapr

[LChico]

I am working on this & so is Larry. For the same reasons listed in my previous post, I cannot supply a quick answer. Playing phone tag across 3 continents is simply not fun.

When I have answers, I will post here, on Global Village AND send an email message to every registered shooter in the match.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Championship

Co-Match Director

[Charles Bond]

Charles, it is a non-issue. just trust me on this, what you have will be just fine. trust me, i'm in the circle of trust!!!!!

Trapr

I know what you mean.