Moved to the Moderator Forum:2010 Pan American Shotgun Championship

[Neil Beverley]

To answer a couple of outstanding queries:

Trapr: I fly in on the 23rd. I plan to spend the 24th with Sue and then be at the range on the 25th to assist/advise as/if required.

Trapr: The poppers in Greece look like they were new for the match. The significant point is that they looked as if they had been shot with slugs rather than with buckshot. The dents were similar in shape and size to metal targets shot by slugs at shorter distances.

All: For safety reasons we don't allow slugs to be shot at metal targets at less than 40 metres. What we are discussing is a cartridge that delivers a hit that appears to perform similar to the impact of a slug at shorter distances. On metal targets that handle repeated hits from regular buckshot without damage we are witnessing significant damage from cartridges that hold the pellets together.

Now let's set the safety issues aside for awhile.

We have course designers setting challenges to test slug, buck and bird shooting. For buckshot and birdshot part of the challenge is to solve the problem of the pattern spread. This tests technical knowledge and ability.

We then have competitors who want the solve the problem by shooting cartridges that deliver a single projectile. It's virtually a slug. So instead of a true buckshot stage it becomes a buckshot stage in name only. Why not just shoot it with slug instead. The technical challenge of solving buckshot stages ceases to exist for the sake of a competitive advantage.

Why not simply change all matches to slug only matches? It seems that this is what some folk want to shoot.

Or should we allow a new cartridge type: "Single projectile plastic cylinders that may contain pellets or may contain a lump of lead".

Or maybe we should simply take up rifle shooting?

[Charles Bond]

The march of technology has resulted in us being able to buy progressively more efficient shot gun shells of all varieties. It really was not all that long ago that the cup for the shot was developed and it is now the standard. As well as the cup works, the challenge has been to improve it further and this has gone in two directions. We have developed shells that spread more widely which are spreader loads. And with the case of Federal Flight Control, they developed a cup that opens from the rear as opposed to opening from the front which keeps the shot together twice as long upon the exit from the muzzle. A few years ago we had shotshells with more than one size of shot for duck hunting and that went out of fashion. Spring ahead to 2010 and we see just the exactly same type of load being produced for the Taruis Judge as a close in defensive round.

Neil, what I may be missing here is why anyone would ever need to shoot buckshot at steel or a slug at steel? Sure it is a different way to present a stage and offers variety but different does not mean better. By my way of thinking if we keep slugs and buck on paper, we have more scoring options.

Buck shot by nature is intended to extend the range of the shotgun and the power of a shotgun. Federal Flight control is widely regarded by law enforcement as the ultimate ammo for the shotgun and there is no question that we will see this type of system being produced by other ammo suppliers. So what will IPSC "lose" if IPSC were to simply say that slugs and buck would not be shot at steel? Please note that I am not saying this based on just this ammo but rather what I am not quite able to grasp is why we would want to potentially ban or hinder the use of a product that is the next generation of shotshell.

I have also found that generally when rules get adopted based on a single concern which here you say was based on the destruction of steel and the safety concerns that arise from the steel being dimpled, you often end up regreting the rule. We can destroy the steel targets in short order with a modified choke and a steady diet of heavy load birdshot. As ammo of all kinds change, we need to adapt to that and if that means bringing better steel to our stages, that is the price of progress.

[bigbrowndog]

Neil, the technical thought process you mention does not require steel to be used, frangible targets or paper can easily be up to the task. Buckshot being what it is, even with FFC you still need to know where your pattern hits beyond 10-15yds, the difference is that FFC has much fewer flyer pellets than does normal BS, and when you are trying to keep from hitting no shoots, this makes a big difference.

With normal BS, you can know where your pattern hits and still wind up with a flyer way off from the rest of your pattern, this does'nt mean you shot poorly, only that your BS load chose where it wanted to put the single pellet. With BS a single pellet can take the popper/plate/frangible/paper noshoot out, so if SAFETY is a concern then do not allow steel to be shot inside 15yds or so with BS, of any kind, or simply do not design a stage that allows steel to be shot with BS, inside those distances.

You may not agree with the idea but that doesn't make it a bad one.

Trapr

[Neil Smith]

Will Federal ensure that this ammo is available in all IPSC regions in the future, if not it would be unfair to allow some regions the advantage it offers, while making it unavalible to others ?

I have not found a supplier that stocks it in the UK yet.

N

[bigbrowndog]

Neil, If its not available to foreign distributors, then it would only be an issue at a match that had US shooters attending, and I'd happily supply you with FFC buck at any match I come to, in exchange from some cider!!!

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Neil, If its not available to foreign distributors, then it would only be an issue at a match that had US shooters attending, and I'd happily supply you with FFC buck at any match I come to, in exchange from some cider!!!

Trapr

There is a heck of a lot of ammo in Europe that is not available here. I also am rather certain that the ammo is available in your country but your government may restrict it. Federal does export the stuff and even here like many other types of ammo, you can not just walk into any old store and buy it off the shelf.

[Neil Smith]

What Im trying to say is, should some shooters be allowed to use ammo that is not available to all competitors at a match ?

FFC is an unfair advantage unless its available to all competitors, now in the US that may not be a problem but in Europe I expect it will be.

N

[Charles Bond]

What Im trying to say is, should some shooters be allowed to use ammo that is not available to all competitors at a match ?

FFC is an unfair advantage unless its available to all competitors, now in the US that may not be a problem but in Europe I expect it will be.

N

Based on what I saw on the Federal website last night there are plenty of full line Federal Dealers in Europe. Federal does export the ammo. Unless you have some govenment regulation that prevents it, there is no reason that you can't get it.

And not everyone has it in the US. If you search ammo websites, some have it and some don't but that is true of any specific load from any ammo maker.

At least with Federal ammo, I know of no reason why the ammo would not be available to all competitors at a match but that actually dove tails into a larger issue. Isn't it true that some countries prohibit the use of the military round of their country being used by civilians? You would not prohibit the use of 9mm in competition because the Republic of Atlantis would not allow their civilians to buy it would you?

[bigbrowndog]

WOW!!!!!Neil, thats like saying the chest loaders so popular in Europe and not available here should not be allowed???????? Or the little single SG shell holders or any other equipment that may be regionally available, like say the XRail????

or that for rifle a competitor could not use a particular bullet because its not imported into Europe, or is difficult to find. The FFC ammo is not easy to locate over here, you do have to search a bit, I cannot walk into one of our normal ammo sources and purchase it, i have to order it from a particular source and sometimes I have to wait several months for it to come into stock. When Kurt came over for the ESC in Italy he was using the ammo carriers that are so popular NOW, but back then they were not available over there, so would you have wanted his equipment disallowed???

Thats a can of worms that I do not want to open for anyone, and its not because I have it and you don't. I have been wanting the Italian over100 ammunition that we saw at ESC06, but can't find over here, but I do not wish to ban it.

If that is done then reloaded ammunition is basically no longer legal either as it is custom one of a kind ammo as well.

Trapr

[FB3GDQ]

Look all that I want to know is can I use FFC?

[RiggerJJ]

I cannot buy/aquire a Merlot here in the US, so they should be banned from all IPSC competitions...

jj

[Charles Bond]

I cannot buy/aquire a Merlot here in the US, so they should be banned from all IPSC competitions...

jj

Speaking of wine, I am willing to trade 4 boxes of Federal Flight Control alien armor piercing buckshot for each bottle of Opus someone brings me. Vintage is not important. Serious offer!

[Neil Smith]

Trapr

I hear ya buddy but ammo is different from other equipment, the chest rigs are home made, anyone can build one with a little effort, Kurts choate carriers were available over the internet pre 2003, In fact I had some at that time but what I lacked was the technique to use them effectively.

I simply think its unfair to be able to purchase an ammunition advantage by virtue of where you live.

The Italian birdshot that was banned at ESC06 helped on stages with extremely tight no-shoots, it was not available to anyone else & was rightly removed from the match, was that wrong ?

If FFC is available to buy at a match & is available to all competitors that want it then ok.

Its a shooting match not a shopping contest.

Just my opinion, which dont mean a lot I know.

N

[Mike P]

Is not allowing FFC shotshells some sort of attempt at leveling the playing field?

[Jadeslade]

[LChico]

All Buckshot stages will be paper ONLY. You can use Federal FliteControl Buckshot.

For a listing of distributors worldwide: http://www.federalpremium.com/general/our_company/international_divisions.aspx#5

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 IPSC Pan American Shotgun Match

Co-Match Director

[ap3]

Does anybody have any practice suggestions for this match other than know your patterns?

Also, when or where will the stages be posted?

[whiskey1]

Linda has done a good job putting the issue to rest for this match, but I think a difference in philosophies is at work here. Neil wants to know if Federal will agree to make their ammo available in the UK. Federal might like to know if there are enough shooters in the UK willing to get a distributor to import some...

[Neil Beverley]

Hmmm! Food for thought.

9.5.9 If a wad from a buckshot cartridge has caused a hole in a paper target there must be no assumption that any missing hit has passed through the hole unless there is visible evidence around the edge of the hole of a hit (e.g. a grease mark, striations or a "crown" etc.).

[bigbrowndog]

keep stirrng the pot Neil, your making new friends with each post!!!

BTW, there are 2 Neils at work here, Neil Beverley, and Neil Smith so do not get them mixed up, NS is a concerned shooter, and NB is an IPSC official.

It is funny how the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter in pistol, but in SG it does not????????? Who wrote the SG rules?????

trapr

Edited July 2, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Neil Beverley]

Keep stirring the pot Trapr, your making new friends with each post!!!

I'm a concerned shooter before I'm an IPSC Official. I was a concerned shotgun shooter way back into the 80s and have fought ever since, kicking and screaming, for the discipline, long before most dedicated shotgunners even contemplated getting involved. Please don't anyone ever doubt my passion and sincerity in doing what I think is best for the sport. We may not always agree on things but my motives are pure. If we don't agree it doesn't necessarily make me wrong, and I might not be right either.

One of the great misconceptions in IPSC is about "benefit of the doubt". Try a search of the handgun section of the Global Village and you will see this myth destroyed time and time again. There is specific reference to to myth of the perfect double. Without there being actual physical evidence of 2 hits it will be assumed that there is just one. The competitor should never get the benefit of the doubt.

I found one of many threads on the subject: CLICK HERE

Rule 9.5.9 was written with conventional wads in mind but is a rule nevertheless. It needs to be considered very carefully so that the correct decisions are taken, and not taken lightly. Don't pre-judge what the decision will be. I've simply flagged it up as something that needs to be evaluated.

This is going to be a long match. Sigh! Bring more beer.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Neil Beverley

[bigbrowndog]

Neil, I was refering to a smaller round traveling thru the hole of a larger round, and not being able to determine whether it did or not, i believe that constitutes a reshoot for the shooter. i could be wrong I've not shot a recognized pistol only match in a long time.

However, it may be comparing apples and oranges,.............??

see you in July mate!! BTW, that is probably what I'm best known for "pot stirring"

Trapr

[Neil Smith]

Trapr.

Perhaps this discussion should be split off as I dont wish to disrupt the pan am thread, sorry Linda.

The issue of FFC at the Pan Am is not what im concerned about, clearly the ammo is available for all to purchase on site, so its fair.

Im more concerned about some possible future shotgun world shoot say, that might be held outside the USA or in a country where FFC was unavailable.

Clearly those who could purchase it before they leave home would have an advantage over those in regions where it was not available.

I also dont like the fact that it makes the game easier to shoot, what happened to learning your pattern inside 30yds.

N

[bigbrowndog]

I agree the waters are muddy enough as it is, pm inbound buddy!!!

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Now we can return to the important stuff.....go carts anyone???