2007 LPR Nationals - Stage 18

[JoshF]

Ok, with all the discussion on stage 18 I thought I would show you all a demonstration of what is good and bad form for this.

Good Form as demonstrated by Mr. Hendricks

Edited September 12, 2007 by KSmoker

[JoshF]

Not so good form as demonstrated by Mr. XXXXXXXXXXX

This resulted in two penalties I believe.

(Shooter's identy has been withheld to protect him from harrassment and ragging by his local shooting buddies)

[ExtremeShot]

Like others have said, where's the advantage???

[JThompson]

There isn't one...

[zhunter]

Insert <ZHshakinghisheadicon>

[Alan Meek]

I am so disappointed that we have these type of stages at our Premier event

[davidball]

Like others have said, where's the advantage???

Devil's advocate response:

The advantage is that the shooter using "bad form" wasn't distracted by making sure he was using "good form" and therefore quicker and perhaps better focused on the shooting.

I know when I shot the stage I had to consciously keep the can low because I train to shoot one handed with the non-shooting hand plastered to my chest.

Is there similarity to this and, say, being required to put something in a bucket and being penalized for missing? No real shooting advantage, but the distraction for someone who just tosses said object versus the one who ensures the object gets into the bucket is different. Ususally a time advantage to the "tosser" versus the "ensurer" as well.

Edited September 12, 2007 by davidball

[vrmn1]

What if someone had really short arms?

[Julien Boit]

It makes me think of what Eric Grauffel teach in his courses :

If you really master the basics of your shooting, that kind of "out of shooting" elements of the COF is easier to deal with.

I mean you can keep focused on keeping the can in the proper manner because you're unconciously mastering your shooting as you trained to.

That being said, giving multiple penalties for a violation which gives no advantage to the shooter is stupid IMO.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Julien Boit

[vluc]

I am so disappointed that we have these type of stages at our Premier event

Alan, that thought has gone through my head throughout this time.

[Bigbadaboom]

"1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire

must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position

or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions

may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be

constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or

stances."

How can they think this stage will hold up to the arbitration. They would have to anchor/tether that box to the ground to force the shooter to keep their arm straight in order to comply with the rule posted above. They can't just 'tell the shooter' to do so.

Nah, it is a procedure. Just like saying "open the door with your strong hand".

Is it the right procedure? I don't think so. Not from my keyboard, anyway.

O.K. With that train of thought I could write a course discription and state that the shooter must "Hold the chair against the ground with their butt" and I wouldn't be stipulating a Shooting position or stance, I would only be dictating how they carry/hold/manipulate a prop.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Bigbadaboom

[Nik Habicht]

O.K. With that train of thought I could write a course discription and state that the shooter must "Hold the chair against the ground with their butt" and I wouldn't be stipulating a Shooting position or stance, I would only be dictating how they carry/hold/manipulate a prop.

And if you wrote something like the following:

Start position: Seated in chair, back flat against back rest, hands on knees, feet flat on ground, gun loaded, and placed on table triggerguard over X-mark.....

Stage procedure: On start signal retrieve pistol and engage targets as they become visible from the confines of the freefire zone, which consists of the bottom of the chair. Feet may not touch bottom of the chair while shooting. (Last sentence needed to keep people from climbing onto the chair and shooting over walls or vision barriers...)

That would probably do it --- now you might be limited in the number of targets you could put out. Build a parson's bench, and you could do something similar, while setting up some vision barriers, and having competitors scoot from one end of the bench to the other. Might even be fun.....

There's lots of stuff that you could write into procedures; it's often wrong though to assess more than one procedural for violations. Personally, if I'm going to make someone carry something, they either carry it through the entire stage, or it's needed to activate a prop later in the stage....

[JFD]

Having a stage like this seems to be par for course at the Nationals these days. I really thought stages were reviewed for possible problems prior to the match. It's not like these stages are appreciated by the shooters or the staff who have to work them. Who really wants to take a vacation just so they can make "improper prop carrying" calls against shooters who also took a vacation to shoot the match? How is that fun or a positive thing for the sport?

The point of this stage was to force shooters to shoot with one hand. If they shot with one hand, then they should have been good to go.

What is it going to take to make these monkey motion stages a thing of the past? Throwing crap into a bucket or carrying a can at the proper height has NOTHING to do with a shooting challenge. If I have to throw something into a bucket, then at least make that added weight activate something. Want to take one of my hands out of play? Then think of something that doesn't involve style points, like dragging a 10 foor 2X4 by one end or ports that only open if I pull a rope or something with the weak or strong hand.

I think it's great to see SHO or WHO stages, but with the experienced folks we have involved with the Nationals, we shouldn't have to resort to monkey motions.

I hope this stage was either a non-issue, or a minor speed bump for the majority of the shooters at the match. Unfortunately we already know of some who didn't appreciate it at all. Hopefully all of them had a good time in the end.

[00bullitt]

Not so good form as demonstrated by Mr. XXXXXXXXXXX

This resulted in two penalties I believe.

(Shooter's identy has been withheld to protect him from harrassment and ragging by his local shooting buddies)

Yep......I suffered 80 points in procedurals on an 8.56 second 40 point run. It was a smoking run all except for the brain fart on where to hold the ammo can. Oh freaking well. I wasn't the only one.

[shred]

Stick two feet of PVC pipe over the shooters arm before they grab the can handle if you must have them shoot with the off-hand arm straight.. No way I'd uphold a per-shot-fired on arb unless the shooter is really gaining a significant advantage and I just don't see it there..

[JoshF]

I'm only going to comment on this stage once.

First and foremost this sport is a game. A game with two sides, physical and mental. Many a stage has props and scenarios that don't neccesarily test our shooting ability but our mental game. Sure you say there is no noticable advantage but I dare you to actually shoot that stage in a major competition and not be somewhat distracted from your shooting by this prop and the limitations put on it. I know for a fact at least one VERY accomplished shooter was actually chanting to himself "can below belt, can below belt, can below belt" before the buzzer and who knows how many more did the same thing only silently. Would this distract you? Would it affect your shooting? I'd say that's a Hell Yes on both counts. I'd compare this to similar scenarios that seem stupid but can destroy your shooting ability from simply distracting you. Does this separate good from bad SHOOTERS? Probably not, but if your mental game isn't solid and down it will play havoc with it.

Also, if you were there on the first day you should see how many shooters blew through this stage and didn't give it a second thought with comments like "no problem" and "simple". It's only after the penaltys flew that the contestation started.

Thanks, and please don't feel you have to argue with me. I'm not in this to argue

Edited September 13, 2007 by KSmoker

[ks-shooter]

+1 on the mental game

[Flexmoney]

I'm all for the mental game, and I love distractions from the shooting.

Given that...I still don't see significant advantage. The punishment does not fit the crime.

You get the same distraction at 1 procedural.

[JThompson]

I'm all for the mental game, and I love distractions from the shooting.

Given that...I still don't see significant advantage. The punishment does not fit the crime.

You get the same distraction at 1 procedural.

+1 I'm with Flex and the others on this. If it was arbed and they lost... very sad indeed.

[shred]

Distraction is good. Per-shot is bad.

What if the match was decided on who held the can one inch higher or lower? Would that really determine who the best practical shooter is?

[Chris Keen]

Looking at those pictures I only see one problem :

NOT ENOUGH MUD! Where's all the mud ????

You early shooters had it EASY! Try doing all that shooting & thinking ..... while "sinking" deep down into the mud ...... in a down-pour!

[00bullitt]

Looking at those pictures I only see one problem :

NOT ENOUGH MUD! Where's all the mud ????

You early shooters had it EASY! Try doing all that shooting & thinking ..... while "sinking" deep down into the mud ...... in a down-pour!

Well unfortunately that picture shows me at the end of the stage. I assure you the mud was there as I was sinking calf deep and already struggling to keep upright while running safely with my blaster and a med kit in an ammo can. It had just finished pouring on us on the previous stage. The mud was there for sure. That was our second stage on the second day. By the sixth stage we were covered and had to take bottled water baths before getting back in the truck. When I get back home I will upload the video.

[Ben Stoeger]

Not so good form as demonstrated by Mr. XXXXXXXXXXX

This resulted in two penalties I believe.

(Shooter's identy has been withheld to protect him from harrassment and ragging by his local shooting buddies)

He was on my squad. He was one of the unlucky few that had his truck broken into at the match hotel. Then the next day, he gets boned on stage 18. To his credit, he was still fun as hell to hang with.

Good times!

[Gwhiz]

Why not just make the can heavy? Say 45 pounds or so. Then let the shooter carry it however. 15 years ago, when we were still going box to box, this stage would have been a joke.

[00bullitt]

Thanks Ben. It was an enjoyable first Nationals for me and we all had a good time on our squad. I'm glad we got squadded together so that I could watch and learn some of the GM secrets. I learned alot this past week. You shot quite awesome given your 5th overall finish with that under dogged Beretta Elite 2. You shot it like a house a fire. Hope your vids turned out alright. Just curious.......did you appoint someone to visit the prize table for you since you had to leave early? Hope to see you again at another match.