Gaming within the boundaries of the rule book?!

[Alan Meek]

Risk vs Reward

[SA Friday]

legal to do now... won't be legal after 1 Jan 08.

IMHO, you did nothing wrong, illegal, immoral, or unethical.

Don't hate the gamer, hate the game.....

I have had some of my stages gamed. EVERY time I chalk it up to a learning experience and use that experience to make my future stages better. I always learn more from my failures than my successes.

[buddy_fuentes]

Truly gaming at its best, and this is a game. It is not your fault that they didn't cover the target or state the procedure differently. Everyone had the same opportunity as you.

Buddy

[Nik Habicht]

I've been known to leave shooters choices like that --- set up in a harder position for more possible shots, vs. hitting more positions for fewer shots in each, or shooting a static swinger with only a significant chunk of D and a smaller chunk of C available, vs. activating it and nailing the Alphas....

I like choices --- and tradeoffs.....

[Ron Ankeny]

There is a huge difference between maximizing your hit factor by operating within the parameters of the rulebook vs. ripping a stage to pieces just to prove a point.

[Flexmoney]

Every so often you might have to prove the point though. It can take that to rattle some people's cage...

[XD Niner]

I'd happily take two D's even in Production if I could save 4-5 seconds on a COF. Heck, for that amount of time, a Mike may be acceptable. I think you shot it the way it was set up and within the WSB constraints. That is all you are required to do. If the stage designer had been a bit more careful, a no shoot could have been added or the position of the hard cover modified to eliminate the approach you took. However, it wasn't set up that way and for all you know the stage designer actually intended to allow the creativity you showed. Kudos to you!

[chad GUNder]

Well, here it is!!! DNROI just e-mailed that it was legal today but will be illegal in 2008 when the new rule book is released.

However, he added that this rule will only apply at level 1 matches. At a level 2 or 3, if you don't want it shot... COVER IT!

Rule 1.1.5. will apply.

[Crusher]

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to

activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

Let us HOPE that the WSB of level 1 matches include the wording that prohibits engagement before activation otherwise it's fair "game".

As stated before I am NOT a fan of any "exceptions" allowing Level I matches to be run/admisitered/scored differently than Level II or Level III matches, as (from my observations) this often leads to the "bastardization" of the game.

[Skywalker]

I have one, stupid question: why try and address what proved to be poor stage construction with new rules?

Remember, if you want me to shoot something the way you have in mind, build props accordingly, after that it's freestyle.

[Crusher]

I have one, stupid question: why try and address what proved to be poor stage construction with new rules?

I believe the intent is to allow clubs with limited prop access to have some latitude with regard to stage design, however that was the intent of the existing Level 1 match exemption that is often abused in stage design now. From past history there is no evidence that this will help maintain continuity for stage design rules throughout the USPSA region.

[Flexmoney]

I agree completely.

And, if a club can manage a swinger...don't they likely have the resources to set it up freestyle ?

[Scott R]

I agree completely.

And, if a club can manage a swinger...don't they likely have the resources to set it up freestyle ?

I guess that depends on what you mean by resources. I would bet that if those shooters which look for unintended loopholes in stage setup would instead show up early and help setup/game proof stages, then yes in that environment the resources would most likely exist to set it up freestyle.

From what I have seen most clubs have a small core group of individuals who set up the match while the majority of the shooters are either still sleeping or casually enjoying breakfast. You want to shot good stages in a freestyle manner?....show up early and help setup and game proof the stages.

Edited to add that this is not directed toward you Flex.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Scott R

[Flexmoney]

I...very much...consider humans as part of the resource package.

The flip side of shooters not helping out is the Match Director that doesn't ask them for help....or worse, drives help away.

[Flexmoney]

We all need to strive for improvement..at all levels.

[tgibson]

Congradulations, You have beat the "evil" stage designer. That is one goal of a shooter

I look to RIP poor stage designs to shreds and cause the match crew to "learn" from their mistakes, allthough painful in the end they do become better at design/set up. In this instance the set up they (set up crew) never checked ALL engagement angles of ALL the targets. Doom on them and NO WHERE in the rule book is there " intent of the stage designer clause"

FWIW I have been designing and setting up stages for a few years and still need to tripple check each and every stage, but it's worth it to "cat herd" the competitors.

THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN BOUT!!!!!

TG

[Ron Ankeny]

THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN BOUT!!!!!

At what expense?

[shooting for M]

WOW,hot topic. I don't know sometimes I agree with the fact that local clup usually don't have the best equipment or like our club good equipment butthe same few guys setting up every match. I live 1.5 hours from the range so it's a little hard for me to get there early enough to help but I have tried, and when I do, it seem like they don't want the help. I feel that yes, this a game and if you ain't pushin' the limits your not in the spirit, but you have to consider that alot of local matches are setup that morning and maybe those stages have never been set up before ant longer field courses could have a lot of places like that to be missed. If it were my stage, I would think, cool someone figured out a better way, that would help me in how I would plan future stages and look for things like that in walk throughs more. The guys I shoot with usually have a better plan than what I come up with.

My .02

Jason

[mpeltier]

Sounds like we are loosing the "Free" in free style with that new ruling for 2008. I love designing stages with multiple ways to solve them. Kudos to you for solving it your way. I hate the word "Gaming", I think it is a word invented by someone who could not shoot very well.

[vluc]

I...very much...consider humans as part of the resource package.

The flip side of shooters not helping out is the Match Director that doesn't ask them for help....or worse, drives help away.

Asking can be very effective. Better than the attitude of "I should not have to ask".

[tgibson]

THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN BOUT!!!!!

At what expense?

"cause the match crew to "learn" from their mistakes, allthough painful in the end they do become better at design/set up"

[Ron Ankeny]

"cause the match crew to "learn" from their mistakes, allthough painful in the end they do become better at design/set up"

If it works for you, knock yourself out. When I asked "at what expense" I guess I am just not willing to drive potential helpers away by trashing their stages just to teach them a lesson the hard way. I think there are more effective means that can be used to teach people how to design a good course. Besides, I have enough character flaws without being a jerk behind the trigger.

[Flexmoney]

Recruit newbies. Train them right from the start.

[Chuck Anderson]

I did this exact same thing at a SS Championship last year. Pissed a couple guys off in the squad but I even asked the Stage Designer before I did it. He said it was cool with him. The only way SD's learn to bullet proof stages is to have a gamer take them apart. Whether it's before the match or during. As a SD and a gamer I've had stages shot that I thought were bullet proof that were not. At our recent section match I designed a stage where I thought you had to go to all 4 corners of the bay. Turned out if you took 3 steps backward from the start box you could eliminate the first two positions. Oops. Wanna guess how I shot my own stage when I got there? It wasn't as much running as originally planned I'll tell you that.

I think the key in ripping stages apart is the attitude in which it's done. If a shooter acts all arrogant and gets stupid about pointing out flaws, "I can't believe that idiot stage designer left "X" hole there for me to exploit, ha, ha, ha." Or if you just take it as part of the course. I'll frequently add in holes to my stages. Where if you thread this little shot through these two barrells maybe you can save a couple steps. Let the shooter decice if it's worth the tight setup.

[shred]

A lot of it depends on the situation-- if it's a major match where they ought to know better, by all means take whatever options are legally allowed. If it's merely a cleverer way to shoot a stage, go for that too, but a major "if I do this I can skip half the COF somebody spent an hour setting up" at a local match I'll try and tell people about beforehand if I can-- there's not much point practicing to be the best hurriedly-setup-match gamer there is-- those skills don't translate well to higher levels of competition.