M&P 9mm, Anyone using 147s having keyholing?

[Jack Suber]

I have been testing loads for my M&Ps this past week. Was thinking of switching to 147s from a 124 (FMJ). Anyway, I loaded some Star 147s with 3.2 grns of Clays. The load felt awesome. Soft, flat. However, it key-holed out of both of my M&Ps. So, I bought a box of Winchester 147s (White Box). They were a little more stout feeling than my handloads and a tad hotter - about 135 PF. They key-holed too. About 3 or 4 of every 10 rounds key-holed at 20 yds. So, I ordered 1000 147s from Atlanta Arms (the Team Glock Load). Wow! These were really soft and very consistent. The chrono'd at 128 PF with on a 6 fps standard deviation. Problem is, when I was testing for accuracy, 2 out of 10 rounds would key-hole at 20 yds. This is happening out of both of my M&Ps. I am stumped. Could it be the length of the barrel not being long enough to stabilize a heavy bullet? Has anyone else had these problems? Any ideas? Thanks.

[mwx40x40]

Jack,

You are breaking my heart. I too, have been biten by the M&P bug. After some short test with Montana Gold 147 CMJ's and 3.1 grains of Titegroup it proved accurate, comfortable and to the point of aim. I just recieved 3500 147's expressly for that gun. I hope I don't experience the same thing.

I will do some more testing this weekend and get back with you.

Mark

[Fireant]

I've shot about 500 Montana Gold 147's with no problem so far.

[BSeevers]

I think its a problem with the gun like a nicked crown. I have seen reloads sensitive to crimp in 9mm with some guns.

I have shot both Win and Atlanta Arms 147gr. M&P doesnt blow me away with its accuracy but mine is as good as a Glock or XD

[Jack Suber]

Jack,

You are breaking my heart. I too, have been biten by the M&P bug. After some short test with Montana Gold 147 CMJ's and 3.1 grains of Titegroup it proved accurate, comfortable and to the point of aim. I just recieved 3500 147's expressly for that gun. I hope I don't experience the same thing.

I will do some more testing this weekend and get back with you.

Mark

Oh, you don't know. I had to pick my jaw up out of the sand when I saw the Atlanta Arms holes on the the target. I was crushed. Let me know how your tests go.

Jack

[Jack Suber]

I think its a problem with the gun like a nicked crown. I have seen reloads sensitive to crimp in 9mm with some guns.

I have shot both Win and Atlanta Arms 147gr. M&P doesnt blow me away with its accuracy but mine is as good as a Glock or XD

I initially thought is was my gun. But when both of my M&Ps did it, I was blown away. My M&Ps are rather accurate with the 124s.

[Jack Suber]

I've shot about 500 Montana Gold 147's with no problem so far.

What load are you using? OAL? thanks.

[Fireant]

3.2 ish grains of N320 at 1.155 OAL. Chronoed at 132 from my 9mm M&P.

[Bryan W]

I've shot plenty of the 147 zero's loaded under N320 out of my M&P with no problems and very decent accuracy.

[Scooter]

I've been shooting Berry's 147 with 3.2 gr. Titegroup with no problems with keyholing.

[basman]

I have shot the Star 147's out of my M&P with no problem. However that was with 7625. Just tried a 124gr MG JHP load with clay's but have not chrono'd yet

[Carlos]

Just to clarify:

Winchester White Box 147 = bullet tumbled (keyholed)

Atlanta Arms Factory 147 = bullet tumbled

Clays w/ 147 grn bullet = bullet tumbeled

- 9mm M&Ps; 2 different guns produced tumbling bullets.

Maybe bad run of barrels by the factory?? Other 147 grn loaders (this means you Jeff) - can you test your rounds to 25 to 35 yards and see if your 147s are tumbling too?

[mike cyrwus]

if the wwb wasnt tumbling, Id suggest jacking up the charge a little bit.

??

are star bullets fmjs?

[Keninaz]

+1 On the VVN320/147 Zero's (jhp/fmj) no problems here. I'm just guessing here, check your crimp.

Ken

[Jack Suber]

if the wwb wasnt tumbling, Id suggest jacking up the charge a little bit.

??

are star bullets fmjs?

All were tumbling - Star 147 FMJs, Win White Box 147s, Atlanta Arms 147s. Here is a picture of the the last group of Atlanta Arms 147s I shot. This is 4 shots out of 10 from 20 yds. Note - one round (center) with the clean hole.

Now, I reviewed my notes and noticed that the Star FMJs and Winchesters keyholed from both pistols. In reviewing my notes, I did not test the Atlanta Arms with the second M&P. I will do so today. I will also try the Stars again (I am loading those at 1.135"). Loaded (1.145") longer they keyholed more than they do at this length. The Atlanta Arms JHPS are showing an OAL of 1.090, Winchester 1.114".

Edited July 25, 2007 by Jack Suber

[DougCarden]

Jack, you took all the variables out of the equation........Call smith for new barrels. A bunch of Smith sponsored shooters use the 147s with great success, including the Atlanta Arms load. It is the barrel.

Good luck,

DougC

[dcarter]

I've been using my M&P since August of last year. Shooting 147gr FMJ with no problems at all. I'm with Bill on this. It sounds as if something has happened to the barrel. If it is happening with both M&P's look at how you are cleaning them to make sure your not damaging the barrel.

[NCShooter]

I've shot about 2000 Zero 147's (and lots of factory 147's by several different manufacturers) out of two different M&P's using several different powders. No tumbling with either but I did have to up my load to get a decent group.

Edited July 26, 2007 by NCShooter

[Jack Suber]

OK. I cleaned the barrels thoroughly today and went out to do some more tests this afternoon. A friend pointed out that it would be difficult to even get tumbling bullets on paper, not to mention group at 20 - 25yds. He speculated that it could be that they appear to tumble because of how the paper is tearing. It seemed reasonable. We had a guy at a match a few weeks ago that had Berry's tumbling. He could not keep them on target at 15 yds. Anyway, I tested my 147s (Star FMJs, 3.2 Grns Titegroup, 1.100 OAL) and the Atlanta Arms, 147 JHPs. I shot groups at 25 yds and 35yds (these are freestyle not from a rest). Here are the results (pix). So, are they really tumbling? Could I group an unstable bullet at 35 yds? Now, I know they aren't very tight groups, but I think that is the shooter. what do y'all think?

Edited July 26, 2007 by Jack Suber

[Beretta Lover]

I have been testing loads for my M&Ps this past week. Was thinking of switching to 147s from a 124 (FMJ). Anyway, I loaded some Star 147s with 3.2 grns of Clays. The load felt awesome. Soft, flat. However, it key-holed out of both of my M&Ps. So, I bought a box of Winchester 147s (White Box). They were a little more stout feeling than my handloads and a tad hotter - about 135 PF. They key-holed too. About 3 or 4 of every 10 rounds key-holed at 20 yds. So, I ordered 1000 147s from Atlanta Arms (the Team Glock Load). Wow! These were really soft and very consistent. The chrono'd at 128 PF with on a 6 fps standard deviation. Problem is, when I was testing for accuracy, 2 out of 10 rounds would key-hole at 20 yds. This is happening out of both of my M&Ps. I am stumped. Could it be the length of the barrel not being long enough to stabilize a heavy bullet? Has anyone else had these problems? Any ideas? Thanks.

Just for fun check your crimp

With FMJ it should not matter that much, but it can effect accuracy

I overcrimped my 125s for a couple weeks and they shot very poorly out of my beretta 92 and my XD

Once I loosened up my crimp a little it made the pistol; much more accurate

I went from 12 inch groups at 25 yards to 3 inch groups immediatley

I think you will be suprised

[mark dye]

Hey guys,

What kind of accuracy are you guys getting out of your M&P's.....really????? I am just getting into the M&P game. They feel great, point like a real gun, and are the easiest trigger jobs that I have ever done. I have two guns here, one 9mm and one .40. I have shot a number of groups with both, and have not been impressed with either in the accuracy department. The 9mm struggles to shoot 3"-4" groups @25 yards, and the .40 is only a little better. I am used to shooting good custom 1911's and high end revolvers, and would certainly like to see a couple of inches or better at 25 yds. My CZ 75's and Sig 226 will average around 2"-2 1/2" . Am I expecting too much or am I doing something wrong? Though most targets in the USPSA world don't require a great deal of precision, it sure is nice on those rare occasions like those 40 yard US poppers at last year's production nats.

Mark Dye

[DougCarden]

I havent bought a 9x19 yet, but plan to do so soon. A real simple fix to this would be to call smith and find out what twist they are putting in the barrel. I would put a new crown on the barrels and try them again with the aforementioned ammo, and possible run a reamer through the chamber, very lightly. It is possible that as the tooling gets worn when they are making the gun that something isnt quite right......just some things to try.....I too would expect better accuracy with the 147s as I have been using them for many years in 1911s and XDs with better groups too.

Good luck and keep us informed.

DougC

Edited August 1, 2007 by DougCarden

[DougCarden]

...oops double post.....

Edited August 1, 2007 by DougCarden

[JeffD]

I've experienced the same problem with Montana Gold 147s. Not necessarily keyholing, but certainly not great accuracy - around 5 inch groups at 25-30 yards from my M&P 9. I thought it might be something with 147 weight bullets as I tried many combinations from 1.100-1.155 OAL, almost no crimp to too much crimp, etc. My load was typically 3.5 grains of Titegroup at 1.140 OAL with WSP primers and mixed once-fired brass, making about 129-130 PF. No matter what combination though, I couldn't get it to group better than 4-5 inches at 25 yards - not good for USPSA Production IMHO.

I just now returned from the range where I tried the same load above one more time and compared it to a new load of Precision Moly-coated 147 bullets over 3.2-3.3 grains of Titegroup at 1.150 OAL. The Precision Moly load chrono'd at 133 PF and shot right around 3 inches, maybe a bit less. The Montana Gold loads were the same as usual - 3 rounds of a 5-shot group in about 3 inches, with 2 flyers opening it up to 5+ inches. I did this back-to-back 5 times each, so the flyers with the MG bullets were really the ammo and not me IMO. The Precision Moly loads were consistently well inside a 5-inch Shoot-N-C circle, typically with a double and no flyers. I was shooting over the edge of a barrel, so I wasn't going for sandbag/bench accuracy, just trying to keep the sights still.

ETA - Some might be interested to know that I did notice more smoke with the Moly coated bullets than the MG plated bullets, about twice as much IMO. I don't think this would be a problem unless you had somthing like a par time stage and were shooting 6 rounds at a 25 yard target. Also interestingly, the 133 PF Moly bullets "felt" softer than the 129 PF MG Plated bullets.

I've always heard good things about MG bullets, and they certainly look high-quality, so I don't know why my particular M&P 9 doesn't seem to like them. I can say that the 147 weight doesn't seem to be an issue since the Precision Moly rounds were some of the best I've shot - the same as Remington UMC and Federal American Eagle 115s, maybe a hair better accuracy-wise. SD was 8 fps and ES was 21 fps, so I was happy with the consistency too. FYI - I am in FL and it was about 86 degrees and very high humidity during this testing.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Edited August 1, 2007 by JeffD

[RePete]

As BerettaLver says check your crimp.

Also, slug your barrel, just in case it's oversize.