For Those That Like To Bend The Rules A Bit To "help Out"

[Flexmoney]

The underclassmen may not be in a battle for first place in the match, but they may be in a battle none the less:

198.1898 36.84%

193.6531 36.00%

193.5673 35.98%

[mactiger]

Well put, Flex.

And, if you are bending the rules, you are absolutely NOT being fair.

Troy

[Alan Meek]

A train of thought I always follow, If you give one shooter a favor, you just hosed all the other shooters.

Alan

[Putty]

"Hey, while I RO my buddy I will overlook the 2 misses on steel..."

[Nemo]

"Hey, while I RO my buddy I will overlook the 2 misses on steel..."

... or GIVE him/her "THE DOUBLE"

[dirtypool40]

Nope, once they know the rules and are keeping score, even for 1st "D" Revo, the rules get applied evenly to everyone. It's what separates us from... well you know

Teach them right, and right from the beginning that you take ownership of your run, mikes, procs and all.

But, yes, on the other hand I will "go light" on a first timer, especially if it's confusing zero trap. Yes, he gets his mikes, but I would tend to lean towards "the advantage gained" question on proceedurals.

[mscott]

I really hate the "local match rules vs. big match rules" theory. There is only one rule book. I've seen a few re-shoots given that shouldn't have been.

[tightloop]

I really hate the "local match rules vs. big match rules" theory. There is only one rule book. I've seen a few re-shoots given that shouldn't have been.

Even the IDPA rule book has grown to 82 pages on line...LOL

[XRe]

I've always looked at it like they look at the rules of golf in a tournament - your job is not just to be fair to the shooter, but to be fair to the "field" (ie, the other shooters in the match). If you give the shooter a break he doesn't deserve, you are acting unfairly towards everyone else in the match.

No one likes to be the bad guy - I'm as guilty of feeling that way as anyone else. But... we all play by the same rules. If the rules have a problem, we should investigate changing them. Until they change, though, they're what we have, and we should play by them.

ETA... and I'm guilty of having given a shooter a break in the past (even recent past), and I shouldn't have....

Edited May 8, 2007 by XRe

[pskys2]

This is a Volunteer Sport, especially at the local level. And the R.O.'ing, like the shooting, is a learning experience at the club level.

If you hammer on every mistake a local RO makes, there will soon be few RO's at that club. Education is the key at that level and it is more important that they try and learn, even at the cost of mistakes.

Experienced RO's, or someone obviously bending the rules helping a buddy, shouldn't be tolerated.

When there's money/prizes/placques/presitge involved the stakes are higher. And therefor uninformed/innocent deviations aren't acceptable.

worth .02?

[JFD]

I don't think this is usually an education problem. Everytime I see it it's a "local match rules vs. big match rules" issue, usually coming from very experienced ROs. Unfortunately this can turn into an education issue when new ROs follow the examples of these experienced ROs.

I can't count the number of times I've heard "if this was a big match" right before ignoring a shooter sweeping themselves, breaking the 180, giving a reshoot for a gun malfunction, or giving a break on penalties.

My wife is a "D" class Limited shooter who generally finishes close to last place in the division. However she is just as interested in how she finishes as any "M" class shooter. Giving a break to another "D" class shooter who she has "targeted for destruction" is cheating shooters like her.

I've never seen the rules bent like this by anyone but an RO truly trying to be a nice guy with the best of intentions. As someone who will now (see the wife comment above) argue against this kind of call (at least in Limited), it is NOT an easy thing to do.

My thinking is these "breaks" aren't worth the effort anyway. I've had several shooters who were given a break ask me a few minutes later "what the heck just happened", especially with procedurals. Around here the process usually just involves a quiet discussion between the scorekeeper and the RO, with the shooter barely knowing what's going on. Safety issues are always covered with the shooter.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Great post flex, Just little silly things can really make a huge difference. maybe not in first place. but in getting into top 16.... not to mention that poor D class guy who might just get his first STI condingency money, first D class area win or pay out.

On the flip side folks. just because your not going to win... if you really question a call don't just let it go. RULES don't have classification cards!!!

[Lee Bell]

I was recently a complete newbie to USPSA. I'm still one of the underclassmen discussed in this forum. I'm unclassified and, for the first months of my particpation, didn't realize that shooting Single Stack would ensure I stayed unclassified until the division goes live. So now I shoot an XD in Production and have one, marginally adequate for a D classifier under my belt. Funny things is, I shot mid percentages in three out of four stages, and marginally above 0 in the classifier. I think it's fair to say I choked.

At any rate, as one of the beginners, I think there's some merit to cutting the brand new shooter some slack in practice matches, but only if each infraction is clearly explained along with the penalties that should have been imposed. Shooters aren't brand new for long. Each participant needs to read and understand the rules reasonably soon after deciding they want to particpate in practical shooting sports. Once they have, they need to comply with them, and be held accountable.

I've been cut a few breaks. Some I appreciated, some I didn't. Here's an example of each:

Appreciated:

In one of my earliest practice matches, I was shooting while moving, a somewhat new experience for me. The RO's perception was that I took several steps between shots with my finger on the trigger. I'm reasonably certain I didn't, but it's likely that my finger was not completely outside of the trigger guard. He explained the rule, the reason for it, and the possible DQ consequences, and then let it go. I appreciated the explanation, learned from it, and got to continue shooting thanks to his mercy. Had he applied the rule, we would have had an active discussion that would have disrupted the practice and required someone to arbitrate. Instead, the match continued, I revised my style to ensure that my finger is not only off the trigger when it should be, but that also visibly outside of the trigger guard, along the frame. I think his decision not to impose a DQ in a practice match was a good one.

Not Appreciated:

In a more recent practice match, there were two sections of a stage that required paper targets and a steel plate to be shot through a port. I planned the stage, including the steel plates, but, when I shot it, I somehow managed to blow right by one of the plates. It was there, in plain view, but I was so focused on the paper targets and what I was going to do next, that I never saw it. I saw, and shot the second one just fine. Imagine my surprise when, as the scorer and I walked through the stage, I noticed the plate sitting on its rack and realized I had not engaged it. I was both annoyed with myself and amused . . . and smarter for having made the mistake. The scorer "did me a favor." He scored the plate as a Mike rather than as a DNE. It wasn't an accident, he did it on purpose. It was nice of him, but that's not the kind of favor I want. I shot the stage the way I shot it, and want to be scored accordingly. That's the only way I'll learn. It's fortunate he mentioned the favor, because that's the only way I discovered how I would have been scored if I had not been cut the break. It was actually difficult to drag out of him what the penalties should have been. He kept telling me not to worry, it was scored as a Mike and I kept trying to explain that I needed to know what the rules were so that I'd know what to expect in a "real" match. This, in my opinion, is a case where, as nice as the scorer was trying to be, the favor was inappropriate.

So, as one of those more likely to be helped out by a little rule bending, I have to say that, once I know the rules, my answer is thanks, but no thanks. I need to learn, I want to compete and I want to do it on a fair and equitable basis, with the rules applied consistently for everyone. When, at the end of the day, I am scored higher than someone else, I want it to be because I shot better, not because someone cut me a break.

Lee

Well put, Flex.

And, if you are bending the rules, you are absolutely NOT being fair.

Troy

To anyone. Let's be clear about this. Even those of us who are at the bottom of the heap, are competing, even those that walk slowly through the stage, trying to improve accuracy before worring about speed, are competing, even if we're only competing with ourselves.

Beyond the first practice match or two, getting a break not only disadvantages other shooters, it disadvantages the shooter himself. It cheats everyone.

Lee

Edited May 9, 2007 by Lee Bell

[Alan Meek]

Lee.

Well said!!!

Alan

[vluc]

Lee, just a question. What is a "Practice match" and how does it differ from a "local match' or a "major match"?

Not trying to flame. If it's practice (as I define practice), with a partner serving as RO, then cutting a break is part of practice. It is a learning experience.

If it's a regular sanctioned level I match where score is kept and you are competing against other shooters, then (to me, even if I treat it as "practice"), all rules apply in force.

Again, not a flame, just trying to understand the semantics of it all!

[ima45dv8]

Nice post, Lee. I like the way you compete.

[Jaxshooter]

I agree with Vluc if it is practice with a buddy acting as the RO fine. If it is any kind of match at any level then the rules should be applied according to the rule book. No exceptions.

[stevie b]

I don't believe there is a shooter out there that hasn't gotten a break one time or another.

be it shooting speeding,cheating on your wife whatever.

lighten up

[Coach]

If you are the RO at a match and you start letting things slide where does it end? Being consistent and following the rules to the letter is the best way to be "fair" to all involved.

[G-ManBart]

I don't know why anyone hasn't mentioned it before this, but there really is a process to help new shooters get into shooting USPSA matches. All a club has to do is give new shooters one or two matches where they are "coached" by the RO through each stage. That's the time for helping them out and giving them breaks...with an explanation on anything they did wrong or that might be questionable. They still get to see how they did relative to everyone else since you can give them a score card, it's just not entered into official results.

Once you're beyond that point, the rules shouldn't be negotiable.

I had a new gun double on me once during a match...two A hits within an inch or two of each other. The RO stopped me and I took a zero on that stage. I went over to the safety area, tweeked the sear spring and then test fired it over at the rifle range and it was fine. They didn't let me reshoot that stage because it was a "local match" and they shouldn't have. At other clubs I've seen people get reshoots when things like that have happened...I recall one guy winning his division and high overall after having his gun go down during a stage and getting a reshoot because it was just a "local match"....pissed me off because I would have been high overall if that hadn't happened, but I wasn't about to say anything.

[Lee Bell]

Lee, just a question. What is a "Practice match" and how does it differ from a "local match' or a "major match"?

Not trying to flame. If it's practice (as I define practice), with a partner serving as RO, then cutting a break is part of practice. It is a learning experience.

If it's a regular sanctioned level I match where score is kept and you are competing against other shooters, then (to me, even if I treat it as "practice"), all rules apply in force.

Again, not a flame, just trying to understand the semantics of it all!

Good question. I wish I had a good answer. No offense taken or flame perceived. The term "practice match" is specifically to cover the fact that I don't know what else to call them.

My club runs one of these matches at a local range every Thursday night. They set up three stages, sometimes developed the day of the match and not always supported by as detailed a description as in "real matches." There tends to be a bit less freestyle involved only because the stage descriptions are not reviewed to the same extent as they would be in something more formal. Those that design and set things up have day jobs just like the rest of us. At these matches, someone's failure to be specific about shooting through versus from a port, for example, does not necessarily make it OK to choose do what you know was not intended. There's still some gaming, as there should be, but we try to keep it reasonable given the nature of the events. Match scores are posted on the club website, but are not, otherwise, shared. As far as I know, these matches are not sanctioned by anyone, but they are conducted according to USPSA rules.

I perceive it as practice, but also as competition. It has a lot of elements of both. We normally have between 50 and 60 shooters, most of whom are highly competitive by nature, but mostly friendly about it. We are all competing against ourselves and one another, but there are no prizes, trophies or anything else. There's always some bragging rights involved, but even that's pretty much kept between peers.

I hope this helps explain what I mean and why I don't have a good name for what we're doing other than "fun."

Lee

Edited May 10, 2007 by Lee Bell

[vluc]

We are on the same page. For me, that would fall into "practice", not a match.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify...greatly appreciated.

[BDH]

Everytime I see it it's a "local match rules vs. big match rules" issue, usually coming from very experienced ROs. Unfortunately this can turn into an education issue when new ROs follow the examples of these experienced ROs.

I think I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. Most would say that I am a pretty experienced RO, and I really think I act the same at club matches as I do at the Area and National matches.

Years ago, people on the club level would hit me with 'this is just a club match', and I would push back that the rules are the rules. Don't take this wrong as I will do my best to make sure the newbie's get through a club match safely and have fun. I will coach them as much as possible (which is probably why I get the newbie squads every match). However, when someone violates a rule, the rulebook takes over.

Great example... I knocked my loaded gun from my holster during a COF. The RO told me 'don't worry about it, I'll just start you again'. I looked at him and said 'sorry, I'm DQ'd under 10.5.3' and packed up and just worked the match the rest of the way.

The rules are the rules... I seriously violated a safety rule... and as one who has had the unfortunate job of having to issue DQ's for similar things at major matches, I could not take a pass...