Shooting With Better Shooters

[dskd]

How important is it to shoot/practices with shooters that shoot at a higher level than you?

For me it would be a 3hr drive to a club that has master shooters how often should I make that drive to train ?

Thanks

Darren

[CliffR]

How important is it to shoot/practices with shooters that shoot at a higher level than you?

For me it would be a 3hr drive to a club that has master shooters how often should I make that drive to train ?

Thanks

Darren

I have been doing this for a year and a half now. My "local" club is a two hour drive one way. I have shot at matches in 5 states in the last year and am starting my "season" tomorrow 5 hours away.

Most everyone I've met, regardles of skill level, is responsible for making me a better shooter. Whether it's tips they have passed on or the goodtimes laughing because we are all having a "bad day" it keeps me coming back. The more I shoot the better I become.

I have been fortunate to be squadded with Jim Shanahan, Rodney May, and Sam Keen, in

my first big three gun match and have never laughed so hard and learned so much in such a short time. I was so awe struck and intent on making a good impression, I ran past a bunch of targets and had to go back! I was laughed with, not at.

To answer your question, the more you travel, the more people you shoot with, the more experince you get. We all start with every one else is at a higher level. I try to make as many big matches that I can because I like the quality of the people in our sport.

CliffR

[Flatland Shooter]

Shooting with good shooters always helps, but being able to shoot with or watch a great shooter is enormous help.

Until you get to shoot a stage with a M or GM shooter that is having a good day, you don't really know what the limits are.

Bill

[dskd]

thanks CliffR

my club is only 1/4hr drive each way and i shoot there 2-3 times a week

i shoot all the matches i can like area and the Nationals

our club is a small club with the highest rank shoots being B class should i try and travel to another club for traing thats 3hr drive each way to train and shoot with M and A class shooters ?

my goal is to become a master class shooter

thanks

[HSMITH]

If you can't shoot with solid A and M class shooters often you will need to go get the training somewhere else. You SHOULD get training elsewhere too, but shooting with good shooters helps a lot.

A class with Manny Bragg when I started would have saved me a year plus of expenditures and figuring things out on my own. If I knew then what I know now I would have learned to do it the right way the first time around. It is a LOT cheaper that way. If you want to make M sometime soon there is no worthy substitute for good professional training.

[wide45]

Shooting with better shooters is good.

Shooting with the same shooters all the time is bad.

Practicing with too many others is bad.

I'd say travel to shoot matches with the better shooters. Figure out what you need to work on, learn the techniques. Practice that stuff at your local range. Set up the things you need to work on, get some solid range time. Travel for practice only when you need help with something particular.

[Micah]

my goal is to become a master class shooter

dskd,

That is an excellent goal to have. I have personally been blessed with having many great shooters around me (BSeevers, CHRIS KEEN, Flyin40, Flex, Steve Anderson, Bob Vogel). Although I really only interact with the first two on a consistant basis, the rest have offered me tips based on what they have seen,

The most dramatic improvement in my shooting game has come from my daily practice. Using Steve Anderson's book Refinement & Repetition , I have created a routine to refine my skills for the coming seasons. If you are completely bored, you can read through my Range Diary.

I guess what I am trying to convey is that shooting with better shooters is an advantage, but IMHO, the way to becoming a better shooter is through constant practice.

[vluc]

And not all better shooters want to shoot with us lower class folk....that is also a reality that we have to deal with. I learn from everyone, D, C, B, U, A and so on. it all comes down to what you want to get out of any shooting session.

[CliffR]

The hardest person besides myself to shoot with is my wife, those that know us know we are always together and her job is to chew my wide a** when I need it.

Remember it is all about having fun and getting better.

CliffR

[shred]

Just tell the M's you want to shoot with them so you can watch them and learn. It's an ego-boost for most of us (which of course means they'll typically trash a few stages trying to show off). Obviously the M's usually want to be with other good shooters so they have a yardstick to compare themselves to, but there's always room on a squad for somebody that wants to learn.

Heck, I drive an extra hour to shoot against GMs to see where I stack up.

[Mo Hepworth]

I travel 2.5 to 3.5 hrs sometimes to shoot with a few top level shooters in production division. My local shooting buddies are no slouches either. They keep me on my toes.

I compare the results from previous matches and see where the Masters are shootig and how I can improve to get to their level. I have a lot to learn when it comes to planning a stage, I usually screw it up which always brings my percentage down.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Mo Hepworth

[dskd]

dskd,

That is an excellent goal to have. I have personally been blessed with having many great shooters around me (BSeevers, CHRIS KEEN, Flyin40, Flex, Steve Anderson, Bob Vogel). Although I really only interact with the first two on a consistant basis, the rest have offered me tips based on what they have seen,

The most dramatic improvement in my shooting game has come from my daily practice. Using Steve Anderson's book Refinement & Repetition , I have created a routine to refine my skills for the coming seasons. If you are completely bored, you can read through my Range Diary.

I guess what I am trying to convey is that shooting with better shooters is an advantage, but IMHO, the way to becoming a better shooter is through constant practice.

thanks at the moment i shoot wed and Saturday 250 rounds some times on Monday as well normally by my self or with one other shooter

and every other day i do dry fire from the Refinement & Repetition book ive got the full set of burkett videos and ive just started reading thinking practical shooting ( by Saul Kirsch )

and try to get in the gym when i can

thanks for your Range Diary to read

if any one has any other training tips ect please let me no

thanks to everyone esle for there input im shore all of you have just helped me shooter better

Thanks

Darren

[HSMITH]

Darren, use video. You will see things you had NO idea you were doing. Get some competent professional instruction, learning to do things RIGHT the first time is far more efficient than burning in a bad process and having to relearn it. Those two things are advice I did not get when I started and those two simple things would have saved me thousands of dollars and a year PLUS in time.

Dry fire is great, working out is something you really should do, practice is a key, but NONE of them help if you are doing things wrong.

[D.Hayden]

I shoot with a group of guys that are now, all Master (maybe one's a GM in waiting). I'm a B. It helps a lot.. I learn so much by see what they shoot, and the order, really helps to breakdown statges.

But I need to remember, that I'm not as fast as them.

You need to shoot how fast you can shoot.. not try to keep up with them.

[hopalong]

Darren,

I can give you a slightly different perspective.

The guy who got me into this game is the First GM in OPEN and Limited in Mississippi so luckily for me I got to practice with him, not just shoot matches. Had I not had that access to "the short cuts" I guess I'd still be wallowing in "Rooky land" (not much better now but sure do have fun)

No matter what you do, or who you shoot with there will be things you just have to learn the hard way. Having access to someone who knows what you are struggling with or can help is just ice cream on the pie.

If you can afford it, yes proffesional instruction will go a long way. My personal suggestions would be Max, Travis, or Manny all 3 are excellent teachers along with being pretty good shooters (and Damn good folk too).

IF you can't afford it, keep up the hard work. Ask many questions here on the forums and always keep your mind open.

Now as far as shooting matches with better shooters.............

Yes do so as much as possible, but don't fall into the mental trap Cliff mentioned about trying to hard. Shooting like most other sports, better adversaries make for better results in the long run.

CliffR, How you doing? That was a great match, too bad they aren't doing it again this year. Thanks for including me with those two great guys.

Hopalong

[dskd]

thanks guys i love to get pro instruction but as i live in New Zealand

it will cost me about 10-15,000 to get to the usa or europe and im only 23 so that kinda money is out of the question this year

but i will do it as soon as i can aford it

thanks for all you help

[shooterbenedetto]

I shot with cb shooters few years and now i shoot with GM, masters and A..all I can say is WOW.. what a difference it is. I thought i was shooting fast enough. but shooting with the best, will only get you to their shooting level and all you have to do is take it all in!!!! got my master card `1 year later.shoot with the best train with the best to be one of the best shooter in the world!!

[Micah]

thanks at the moment i shoot wed and Saturday 250 rounds some times on Monday as well normally by my self or with one other shooter

and every other day i do dry fire from the Refinement & Repetition book ive got the full set of burkett videos and ive just started reading thinking practical shooting ( by Saul Kirsch )

and try to get in the gym when i can

thanks for your Range Diary to read

if any one has any other training tips ect please let me no

thanks to everyone esle for there input im shore all of you have just helped me shooter better

Thanks

Darren

Very impressive Darren! Saul's book is another excellent resource that I was going to suggest. You are definately motivated and will without a doubt obtain your shooting goals. Beyond the Burkett dvds, reading the right books, live and dryfire, and hanging out here on the forums, it appears that you have covered the lions share of improvement techniques.

[Flyin40]

And not all better shooters want to shoot with us lower class folk....that is also a reality that we have to deal with. I learn from everyone, D, C, B, U, A and so on. it all comes down to what you want to get out of any shooting session.

I have only seen this with 1 GM since I have been shooting, especially at the local level. The rest were more than willing to to shoot and help any range of shooters including guys that are new. I think alot of guys might get the impression those better guys don't want to shoot with lower class shooters, especially at bigger matches. The problem comes in when guys start to try and pick the Gm's brain at a bigger matches. They are there for the match just like everyone else and not to give lessons. If they are try instructing it can take away from their game. I was able to shoot with Sevigny, Henning Wallgren, Manny Bragg and Ted Puente. They were more than helpful on how to shoot stages. I just think you shouldn't ask them alot of questions, just watch and ask some things here and there. I know Henning broke down how to shoot one of the stages to me from the draw to the finish and then explained why to shoot it that way. I didn't even ask, he just seen me looking at it and knew I wasn't sure and he walked up and volunteered to help.

I think our sport is full of guys from the top to the bottom that are more than willing to help guys out. For some reason the top guys in our sport remember how it was when they started and give back to the sport. I don't know if there is another sport that does it at much as Uspsa. I believe it comes from the local matches, because everyone is so willing to help everyone else out that those that end up making GM remember all the help they received when they started out and and give some back.

I think your right on about guys wanting to shoot with same class guys so they can gauge themselves and how they are doing. I don't think is a case where they won't shoot with lower class guys but instead they prefer to shoot with guys who are the same level or better to help out their shooting.

Flyin40

Edited March 4, 2007 by Flyin40

[dfwmiket]

Well, I gotta say I find it VERY helpful to shoot with better shooters.... best way to learn. I'm fortunate enough to live where I have LOTS of people better than me to shoot with and learn from..... B.J., Stockton, Catfish, Harmon, Dave Re and Shred, the list goes on........ and they all are always more than welcome to offer tips, help critique your performance, and help you improve!

-Mike

[Rennie]

Shooting with the big guys makes a huge difference.I did OK shooting pins till I started going to Second Chance and learned a lot I also was a middle C shooter for years untill I moved to Benny Hills home range and in 1 year started winning B class and anly missed A class because I tried too hard on the classifiers and choked.

So as previously stated,watch videos from the pro's and shoot with the best guys you can find.Also being an RO gives you a chance to watch all the shooters and thier "tricks".

[Mick]

I always try to squad with another GM but sometimes it's just more fun to be with other folks who share your humor etc. If you're having a good time you attitude should help your shooting. I get to shoot often with one or two of the three other GM's in the Dallas area. I often get reminded to think more or better analyze a stage. We have some really good M and A shooters too (sandbaggers!) so keeping on your toes is a constant thing. Since two of the 4 GMs are at least 10 years younger, I get to eat their dust often. BUT the OLDEST is by no means slow! He gets "happy finger" and tears us up! He has reminded me several times how better to shoot a stage even quicker with slightly better engagements or footwork...

But then those of y'all who know me know we cut up pretty heavily while shooting!

[Steve Moneypenny]

And not all better shooters want to shoot with us lower class folk....that is also a reality that we have to deal with.

I only know of a couple of arrogant GM's that way.... and they are arrogant to other GM's as well. so it isn't personal. A classification card doesn't matter to me... i like to know what others of my ability are doing stages in sure. and sometimes it helps and sometimes it hurts my performance. But feel free to jump in any time.

Shoot with as many higher classed shooters as you can, none of them do things exactly the same, the best contrast i know of is Dave S. and Manny B. Manny is smooth and very fluid never stops moving. Dave is violent and abrupt. Very different very similar ending.

[AZ38super]

I had just started this game when I first moved to Arizona and was lucky enough to live 10 minutes away from Rio Salado's range.

I have a large selection of top shooters to shoot with 4-10 times a month and they are allways willing to help out. I got in with a group and watched, learned and compared.

At first it was to keep within so much of their time and then I began to close the gap more and more. Pretty soon I was actually beating some of them on stages and even complete matches.

When I look at scores I don't look much at the ones in my class but how far I am from the couple classes above me and how much gap I need to make up. I mean we have people like Rob, Angus, Matt B, Matt M, Don G and I could go on for ever to compare scores with and learn from.

Like in any sport the better the players you play with the better you will play to try and keep up.

It makes everyone try harder even when they don't realize it.

[Chuck Merriam]

You are playing in the last sport where you may get a tee time with Tiger Woods. Really...even if you shoot terrible you get to watch how it is supposed to be done. Even shooting with someone who is a level higher can help. Anyone who is better will show you how to play the game better and teach you a great deal. You will find they disect the stage differently than you....and better. Some people are afraid to shoot with better shooters...I am glad to hear you are seeking them out. Good luck.