shooterbenedetto Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) Comming from C, B shooting I use to double tap targets up to 25 yrds. since I got my A card, I started to do controlled double tap, Accuracy got better but my times are longer. Worked really hard on movements reloads and dryfire and I got myself a Master card. since then, I noticed that GM has a faster double tap than how I shoot the stage? Any comments? Edited February 21, 2007 by shooterbenedetto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I only know what a couple of grandmasters have told me, and they have to a man said they NEVER double tap. Every one of them said they shoot the target for each shot, no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Comming from C, B shooting I use to double tap targets up to 25 yrds. since I got my A card, I started to do controlled double tap, Accuracy got better but my times are longer. Worked really hard on movements reloads and dryfire and I got myself a Master card. since then, I noticed that GM has a faster double tap than how I shoot the stage? Any comments? If a GM is shooting two shots faster than you're shooting two shots, it's because they're picking up the sights/dot and reacting (i.e. pressing the trigger) faster than you are. Are they shooting the same, better or worse points on those targets where they're faster? If the points are as good or better, they're not accepting any less precise sight picture than you are, they're just either getting that sight picture faster or responding to it faster (or both). If their points aren't as good, they're accepting a bit less precise sight alignment for speed. I think TGO calls that "acceptable accuracy"...precise enough to get a decent hit, and no more. It's been a long, long time since I was really competitive and never got higher than a local master, but a really fast C is often better than a slow, perfect A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) I only know what a couple of grandmasters have told me, and they have to a man said they NEVER double tap. Every one of them said they shoot the target for each shot, no matter what. +1 My fastest splits on close targets are not double taps, ever. Sometimes when the vision is really working, after the stage is over I'll recall it didn't take very long to shoot a particular set of targets. Generally folks will be thinking I'm just pointing and shooting, but that isn't really what is happening. I try to convey that point. It is very important to know where the shots are going, it elliminates hesitation. Edited February 21, 2007 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktyler Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 +1 The word "Double Taps" is a thorn in my butt for teaching LE and competition shooting. In all my classes I explain it like this: Hammers= 1 sight picture with 2 trigger presses -rarely used because you must bring the gun to rest and set up the proper sight picture before pressing the trigger 2 times. Usually used at 1-5 yards with flash sight picture at best. Controlled pairs= 2 appropriate sight pictures (See what you need to make the shot desired) with 2 trigger presses-the preferred method of putting 2 rounds on a target quickly. The outcome is much more predictable. You are taking 2 aimed shots which gives you a better chance of having a continous sight picture through the arch of recoil allowing you to call your shots. (Good Lord there is a lot going on when you got to presses the trigger more than once and hit something) Diliberate pairs-2 perfect sight pictures (level and equal, or dot at rest) 2 perfect trigger presses. Used for tights or distance shots. Just watch the good shooters that are smooth. They rarely have splits faster than .18 but the transitions are rarely slower than .20. Smooth is faster and more accurate which gives you the hit factors you want. Hope this helps Keith Tyler TFI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I think about it this way-- if you are looking at the target you want to hit, if the sights aren't there, you don't know where the shot went. The big guys have faster splits because they get the sights back to where they want them and recognize that faster. With a good index, you see the sights even on a 'hammer'. Check out how many extra shots some of the top dogs shoot-- anything that looks or feels the least bit 'off' and they make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Comming from C, B shooting I use to double tap targets up to 25 yrds. Misses suck, huh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) What, you guys don't double tap all targets?!?! And what's this thing call aim?!?! Edited February 21, 2007 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I aim every shot. You can develop "parlor tricks" and hammer a .15 splits on 15-20 yard open targets in practice, warmed up, but you ain't winning nothing doing that. The top GM's don't shoot 95% A's hammering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 You can get to Master by sheer speed..to make the GM cut..you got to shoot points and you got to be smooth.. call the shot..every shot.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) I had this same conversation a few weeks ago. A local B/C prod guy saw me practicing on pratials ranging from 15 - 25. He remarked how I was still pretty fast on the splits out there on a small target and wanted to know what I was doing in grip or timing that would allow me to rip two and get those this with only one sight picture. "Uh....nothing, I'm shooting TWO SIGHT PICTURES". At 5y it may only take .20 (I don't have a fast split-finger) but on a given target, let's say A-zone, times should steadily increase with distance to get a similar result. When you're only talking about the difference between say .25 @ 10y for real, "call-a-ble" Alphas, and say .35-.40 @ 25, are you really saving that much looking cool tossing that 2nd round into the great void. Hey man!!! There's no shoots and Deltas out there!!! Dude, see two, shoot two. Visual patience and discipline. Your trigger finger is the safety, your eye triggers the gun. Edited February 21, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Your trigger finger is the safety, your eye triggers the gun. That I like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Your trigger finger is the safety, your eye triggers the gun. That I like. Me too. I'm going to use that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) yeah, I thought you might. This phrase copyright Ricky-Bobby industries inc, not be used..... SHAKE & BAKE BABY!!!! Anyhoo, that's distilled that from about 100 sources, and when I teach, I try to get them to understand that. Use it up, just don't credit somebody else. My other new favorite mantra is "easy on the trigger, hard on the sights...." I'm just happy I might be remembered for something other than "I have a man-crush on Tom Selleck." Edited February 21, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 With all the information that is available, (net, books,instuctors [for a price] * magazines suck) I am allways amazed at the amount of shooters (outside of this venue OF COURSE) that you run into on ranges/matches that shoot to mimic "speed by sound" (or the speed at how fast the shots sounded) rather than seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I'm just happy I might be remembered for something other than "I have a man-crush on Tom Selleck." Not a chance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 damnit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 That extra .10 of a second is worth it to get a good shot on a target, even close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim James Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I used to do controlled triplets to make sure I hit everything until I got too many 3-alphas and someone chided me to just shoot twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 I do that too when I call a shot in the d zone, for long distance shots..I call the third shot INSURANse shot. It means they dont practice the long shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 A double tap is no faster than a controlled pair...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 Jake, I shoot with JOJO v. every week and he told me that He shoots 2 contorled pair all the time but occationally he will shoot a DOUBLETAP once in a while for a fast time hit? Of course he said he will never do it at any big match? but I have videotape his shots and his double is faster compared to his controlled double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Jake, I shoot with JOJO v. every week and he told me that He shoots 2 contorled pair all the time but occationally he will shoot a DOUBLETAP once in a while for a fast time hit? Of course he said he will never do it at any big match? but I have videotape his shots and his double is faster compared to his controlled double. Ok, I think you answered your own question if you think about it. Why would he NOT do it at a big match if it was better? Big matches are about all the stages, not just one stage that you might be able to "nail" and win the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 I am with Jake. Shooting with vision/feedback is faster for me than without. Doubletaps lead to a focus on speed...which can lead away from a focus on execution...often resulting in trigger freeze, missing, and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 I'm just happy I might be remembered for something other than "I have a man-crush on Tom Selleck." But at least you're honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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