No. 7.5 Shot Sufficient To Take Down Poppers

[surfmaster]

Hi Everyone,

I'm thinking about getting a poly-choke for my Saiga 12 shotgun and I was wondering whether No. 7.5 birdshot packs sufficient punch to reliably knock down poppers located at 13 yards or less with either the improved cyclinder setting or tighter?

I am currently using No. 4 birdshot without a choke and it works fine but there's much more recoil to control compared to No. 7.5 birdshot.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[Chris Conley]

That's about all I use us 7.5 and 8. I really like the 8's for shooting clays on sticks cause you get more pellets and they seem to knock the poppers down just fine. As to how they would work in a Saiga I don't know. I have a friend that uses one and it seems to work just fine with the 7 1/2's and 8's. I guess you can go and buy a box of each and see how they work.

Chris C.

[LPatterson]

7.5 will work at the range you have specified but would be marginal for a 25 yard popper. 3 gun matches around here limit shot size to 6 which are better for the longer shots without a lot of clay pigeons. You might want to re-read the rules for 3 gun about equipment changes between stages because the poly-choke has that capability. Of course if you set it before the shooting starts & never change it but there is always the hint that you might be gaining an advantage that this board likes to call gaming.

[Merlin Orr]

#7 works fine for me.

[Chriss Grube]

When and where has it ever been an issue about a choke switch? It is done all the time depending on the stage.

[Larry White]

Nothing about changing chokes in the rules. I use 71/2 for almost everthing out to 20yds and shoot imcyl most of the time.-------Larry

[EricW]

Mod choke with 7 1/2 will take down just about anything out to 20/25 if you do your part. The real issue isn't *large* poppers, it's *small* plates. With IC, those can be a real pisseroo to take down even at 15 yards. For my next SG project, I requested that my smith just put in a fixed Mod choke and be done with it. Seems to work the best on about everything.

[STInky]

We had a shotgun stage last year with a Texas Star at about 12-15 yards. Folks shooting 7 1/2 or 8's were having trouble getting 1-shot kills. I switched to some reduced-recoil 00 buck that I had, and took them plates right down.

[RiggerJJ]

Poly chokes are totally legal, ther is no difference between using a poly choke or changing regular chokes. just be careful when changing a poly choke during a course of fire so you don't appear to sweep yourself... not many people use them thou, probably because they increase the barrel length quite a bit.

And the notion that #4 has more recoil than #8 is absurd. an ounce of shot is an ounce of shot no matter what size it is. this is of course assuming the powder charge is the same.

personally I use #4 most of the time, mostly because I think it helps a lot on steel. and it works fine for me on clays too, even the flying ones...

jj

[Pigdawg]

And the notion that #4 has more recoil than #8 is absurd. an ounce of shot is an ounce of shot no matter what size it is. this is of course assuming the powder charge is the same.

personally I use #4 most of the time, mostly because I think it helps a lot on steel. and it works fine for me on clays too, even the flying ones...

I don't know of any econo/low brass #4s I'm sure that there is some out there but most of the #4s I looked up were High Velocity pheasant loads.

[Overkill]

I've gotten hosed before on a longish plate with a very hard set. I was shooting 7.5 through a cylinder bore. My new tactic is to keep a rack of high base 4's around back for emergency.

[warpspeed]

This brings up something that I think is very important - know your shotgun pattern

We have heard time and time again that you must know your zero - how much drop or hold over at a given range. You need to know how a given load will patern with a given choke from your gun.

Get yourself some butcher paper, 30+" wide, make a frame, Draw a 8" circle for aiming, put it at a 10, 20, 30, 40 yd distances, try full, mod, IM, Cyl at these distance and see how many pellets actually hit the 8" circle.

Then you will know.

And yes, 3 dram 1 1/8 oz #7.5 12 ga shot shells will knock down steel.

[imechura]

#7 1 1/8 is the way to go for steel. I went to the TV match and could not knock down some of the steel with #8 shot but the 7s where the ticket with a 20" barrel.

Thanks again Merlin for giving me that box of ammo so I could finish the match

For now on I am bringing a few boxes of #8 for all clay stages and a few boxes of 7.5 1 1/8 for popper stages.

[Carlos]

Not to complicate things but:

-if your 7.5 load in a 12 gauge does not take over the steel, stop shooting and call for a calibration.

-20 gauge is still major in USPSA as far as can tell, and we don't generally chrono shotguns in USPSA. Calibration has to be performed with a load as close to the power floor as possible.

-if they don't use a 20 gauge with ammo close to the power floor, then its seems to me that you should either win the calibration or have grounds for a protest.

I think that the rules for calibrating shotgun steel are usually overlooked in setting up a shotgun stage.

[George]

Yes, calibrating poppers for shotgun is not something most matches do.

That said, I shoot absolutely nothing but 2.75 Dram, 1.125 Oz, #7.5 shot through a modified choke. Steel falls to 30 yards easily, even though I do carry some hi-base 4's and some #4 buck for when it makes sense. If I come up against something like a T-Star at say 20 yards, I go to IC choke and out come the 4's (buck if it's legal at the match).

Remember, the trick to dropping steel is to get the major portion of the paylod onto the plate, instead of flying past it in a huge pattern.

warpspeed said it well, know thy pattern. It really is all in the choke choice.

[TRUBL]

Rule of thumb with pattern size.....with a given choke. The larger the shot (6 being bigger dia. than 7.5), the smaller the pattern.

That being said, if you happen to be in a stage with longer poppers.....you can do a couple of things....go to a tighter choke or bigger shot (or do both). Typically #6 is not loaded to trap spec's so it will have more power too.

Knowing the size of your pattern (and where it is to POA) is paramount.

I'll be teaching a class this summer on shotgun for 3 gun and one of the things the guys will know whe they are done with this class is how far they can knock down steel (big and small poppers) with what they have.

Also....one other thing about shotshells....they are not all created equal. The 'same' load from different manufactures may NOT be the same load, and you should assume it is not. The one thing I see over and over is guys buying what ever shells they can before a match (I used brand 'W', but found brand 'F' on sale, same stuff right??).....and then when it doesnt work...or the point of aim is different, that is when they realize.....maybe I should shoot the same stuff ALL the time. We have pet loads for our pistols and rifles.....why dont we for the shotgun??? Answer is....we should and if you don't, you may want to change your thinking.

[George]

Couldn't agree with Tim more on testing the shells you use first. I settled on a specific shell by trying 10-15 different boxes of various shells and deciding on 3 to test. I bought a case of each and after burning them all through, I chose one specific brand.

My testing covered function, patterning, knockdown capability and a pass over a chrono. After testing was done, I went out and bought a metric shjtload of the "chosen one". I also keep an eye out and buy lotsa' cases of it whenever it goes on sale. I chrono some shells from the new batches and if they are there, I feel that I am good to go. I haven't worried about re-patterning the later batches I have bought assuming that the V is most important, but I may think about checking this too in the future.

The heavier shot is always a good move when the distances go beyond 20 yards, but I tend to stick with my lite loads of small shot from a tight choke for almost everything because I KNOW it will take steel over out to 30 yards IF I put the payload on the plate. Remember, you still need to do some aimin' for shotgunnin' ;-)

The only time I go to a looser choke is when there are clays to be dealt with and they are close, then I go to IC, but stay with lite 7.5's. If there is heavy far steel on top of close clays, then I will usually do a select load of some heavy shot for just those plates and stay with the IC choke for the close clays. I haven't taken a hankerin' to spreader shells yet, so this may change at some future time ;-)

[kellyn]

In my experience, choke is more important than shot size. But I always have some heavy shot in my kit at a major match. My Benelli with a full choke and a load of #4 buck laughs at your little plates and far away poppers.

[Brian Payne]

Don't mean to start a thread drift, but this does kind of apply.

Does barrel length make any difference in this sport? What I mean is this. I had a Benelli Tactical w/18" barrel, and now run a M1S90 w/26" barrel. I know this may be a little longer than most people would like to run, but I thought if the open guys use it I would give it a try. I really seem to notice that #8 shot from this barrel vs. the tactical barrel, seems to really hit with more authority.

Both barrels used the IC choke but the pattern is better with the longer barrel. I have put in a LM choke and that really hits hard. Also groups better with slugs than the IC choke.

More testing in order I guess. I am sure I will learn more when taking Tim's class.

Tim see you at Gopher this weekend.

[benny hill]

Barrel lengh has nothing to do with a pattern, only choke restriction & how a shell will patteren. Different makes pattern different in the same gun. Try them all & pick a winner.

Sorry, had a brain fart above. Should say different shells make different patterns out of the same barrel.

[George]

More bbl length can provide higher velocity if you use Hi-V loads that burn a large charge of powder all the way down the bore, but most light stuff is coasting by the time it see's 20-21 inches of bbl and is just slewing off V after that in any longer of a bbl.

[bpowe]

The biggest difference in pattern density, after choke restriction, is the quality of shot used in the shell. Most competition shells use hard, high Antimony shot which holds its shape better under the set back forces when the shell is fired. Most "promotional" shells - the cheap ones from Wallyworld use soft shot which is nearly pure lead. This shot is severely deformed when fired and many of these deformed pellets fly like curve balls and leave the shot pattern thin and patchy. Using too tight of a choke with this soft shot can exacerbate the problem as the pellets are further deformed with contact with the choke constriction.

Bill

[kdmoore]

Both barrels used the IC choke but the pattern is better with the longer barrel. I have put in a LM choke and that really hits hard. Also groups better with slugs than the IC choke.

It's more about the number of pellets on steel than their speed. If by "better" you mean tighter, then that's the difference right there. If you mean more uniform, I'd look for a different shell.

You can match the pattern from the longer gun in the shorter gun. Just test a handful of choke tubes. To make the comparison you need to get the guns throwing the same patterns (roughly). Better aiming is another possible effect of the longer bbl, and that puts more pattern on plate too. Distance plays a part (if plates you hit were a little further away). Just so many variables to check.

Real answer would be to chrono both guns with same shells, but I’d bet that’s not what really is going on. Here’s why.

Speed is achieved early on. Little skeeter tubes are chamber inserts that allow smaller gauges to be fired from larger guns. All speed is derived at the chamber (otherwise, gas should just blow by), and you can break clays with them. This is an extreme example; I’m sure there is a velocity loss, but that they work at all surprised me!

Given today’s fast powders, I doubt that you have gained much speed, possibly lost a tiny amount?

Differences in speed diminish the further out you go. If you start 100 fps different, you might only be 30 fps different at the plate.

BTW, Years ago a guy tested the shot from the cheapy loads (bulk walmart stuff) and it was surprisingly good. Not the premium grade, but not the cheap stuff that you can purchase for reloading either. He didn't measure antimony (the hardener) but did crush tests and pattern tests IIRC. Of course, the recipes have likely changed, so I don't know if that's still true....

[bpowe]

The difference you're seeing between the two barrels is most probably due to an actual difference in the choke constriction. Almost all barrels even in the same model have a slightly different diameter. As the boring tools wear down during production, there is a range of acceptable tolerances... so the first barrel bored with a new bar will be a larger diameter than the last one before the tool is discarded.

When back boring became popular, shooters didn't realize that the new larger diameter barrel would require new larger diameter choke tubes to achieve the same constriction! A skeet choke for the old barrel diameter could easily wind up being a modified choke for the new diameter. The choke is the difference between the barrel and choke diameters.

Bill

[StealthyBlagga]

I shoot an 11-87 with sawn-off 22" barrel (no choke). I can drop most steel with #7.5/1-1/8oz/3dram target loads, and carry hotter #4/1-1/4oz/3.75dram shells for those rare occasions when I need a bit more poke. Works for me.