2007 Single Stack Nationals

[Caspian_45]

Hey Steve! Great shootin' witcha'

You did very well. I sure wouldn't have placed as high as I did with out your help. Thanks.

Quik

For those of you that have a problem with the CRO of the dark house, please shoot an email to Richard Heinie and Jay Worden with your opinion of the rules for a cold range. It's a little late to do much about it know. But the RO in question might get repremanded for his actions.

Also this is not the place to discuss this issue. Please take it to the match officials or drop it.

[Anopsis]

Thanks for the info and the welcome, Steve. I hope to be a productive member of society here.

[gunner40sw]

If the single stack is provisional for another year and it gets accepted and the single stack classic becomes the official single stack nationals are people going to have to be awarded slots? What will happen to the people who have been shooting it all these years just because they enjoy it so much.

[Carmoney]

We had couple a bit of muzzle comments from the ROs on one stage. Luckily the RO were gracious enough to issue the warning when it got close. Another set of good ROs.

Well.....uh.....actually, they are not supposed to yell "muzzle." I know which stage you're talking about. I think that's a carry-over from past experience as a safety officer at IDPA matches, where there is not necessarily a fixed 180-degree line, and the "muzzle" command is considered appropriate. I know he was trying to help, but it's important to remember that "muzzle" is not a range command at USPSA matches.

Skilled USPSA shooters routinely work out ways to run a stage that involve going all the way to 179 degrees and shooting across the bay, and that is perfectly safe and perfectly fine. Now if the shooter breaks the 180, the RO should give a "stop" command and issue a DQ. But if the shooter does not break the 180, the RO should keep quiet and stay out of the way.

On the stage you're talking about at the SSC, I watched one shooter in my squad flinch noticeably as the RO howled "muzzle" at him from two feet away. I would not be at all happy if I worked out a game plan that involved approaching (but not breaking) the 180 barrier and was distracted by the RO yelling in my ear that way. (No matter how "gracious" his intentions.)

That said--once again this year the Single Stack Classic was blessed with a staff who included many of the best and most experienced ROs in the business, and I know we are all appreciative of their dedication and hard work. One of my favorite parts of shooting major matches is seeing the many ROs whom I consider friends.

[spd522]

On the stage you're talking about at the SSC, I watched one shooter in my squad flinch noticeably as the RO howled "muzzle" at him from two feet away. I would not be at all happy if I worked out a game plan that involved approaching (but not breaking) the 180 barrier and was distracted by the RO yelling in my ear that way. (No matter how "gracious" his intentions.)

I am not an RO and I sure don't know all the rules etc. But could yelling unofficial range commands like that at a shooter during the COF somehow be considered interference by the RO and be grounds for a reshoot? I realize he was trying to warn of a potential safety situation. But making commands that are not appropriate for USPSA competition could very well confuse and distract a shooter into any number of errors or violations.

I just think he should have either kept quiet or made the shooter stop. Any potential warnings or safety issues with the course should have been made known during the walk through. The shooter either broke the 180 or he didn't. Close isn't an issue. Like I said, I am not an RO so that is why I am asking.

Craig

If the single stack is provisional for another year and it gets accepted and the single stack classic becomes the official single stack nationals are people going to have to be awarded slots? What will happen to the people who have been shooting it all these years just because they enjoy it so much.

Good question!!!! I hadn't thought about that. Why I liked the old (pre-USPSA) format better. Everyone from all disciplines show up and have fun.

Craig

[ChuckS]

If the single stack is provisional for another year and it gets accepted and the single stack classic becomes the official single stack nationals are people going to have to be awarded slots? What will happen to the people who have been shooting it all these years just because they enjoy it so much.

Regardless of what happens with the USPSA SS Nats, I don't believe that the SSC will dissolve. From the 1911 Society web page:

"Where are we going from here? Well, only time will tell. But one thing is for sure - The 1911 Single Stack Classic will continue to be one of the best matches of the year. One you shouldn't miss!"

Sounds like the SSC will be around for some time...

[Steve Moneypenny]

Was great shooting with you too Tony, I picked up quite a few pointers. Looks like that miss probably cost me at least 5 places. maybe more. ah well enough crying. I was happy I shot as solid as I did. It seems like i shoot a 1911 major as fast as I do my production gun... AFTER I'm warmed up. the 12 hour drive back gave me lots of time to think!!! Can't wait to be back with my Witness i think she missed me as much as i missed her! lol

Anyone who gets the chance to shoot with Tony capitalize on it, he is a wealth of information.

[Anopsis]

I am not an RO and I sure don't know all the rules etc. But could yelling unofficial range commands like that at a shooter during the COF somehow be considered interference by the RO and be grounds for a reshoot? I realize he was trying to warn of a potential safety situation. But making commands that are not appropriate for USPSA competition could very well confuse and distract a shooter into any number of errors or violations.

From the USPSA rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a

course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage

may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such

warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a

reshoot.

[JayWord]

I am not an RO and I sure don't know all the rules etc. But could yelling unofficial range commands like that at a shooter during the COF somehow be considered interference by the RO and be grounds for a reshoot? I realize he was trying to warn of a potential safety situation. But making commands that are not appropriate for USPSA competition could very well confuse and distract a shooter into any number of errors or violations.

From the USPSA rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a

course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage

may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such

warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a

reshoot.

In this situation. the muzzle and trigger command is quite appropriate. ROs are trained to warn the shooter to prevent an unsafe action. The rules specifically allow a safety warning as was quoted. "If the shooter is becoming unsafe warn them. If they are unsafe, stop them and DQ ."

Many shooter do not like the warning for two reasons. One they think they are done too much and secondly it "breaks" their concentration. Personally, I feel that is incorrect thinking. I would much rather get a warning if I am close rather than stop you're done with no warning. Just my 2 cents.

On the the other issue. Once it was pointed out to me it was dealt with. PASA is a cold range during USPSA events. Nuff said.

Jay

[spd522]

Thanks for the clarification on the rules guys.

Craig

[CliffR]

First off, WOW, first time at the SSC and it will not be my last even if I have to win a slot.

Second, that RO did warn me MUZZLE and I was close, BUT, I got to finish the day. If I concerned him I was that close, I'm glad he was that aware of what I was doing that late Saturday afternoon. EXCELLENT JOB.

Third, My Good Friend is Jim Shanahan who is training troops in Afghanistan and couldn't be there (only way I can ever beat him). My wife talked to several of the people there who all wrote personal notes to send in his next care package. TGO even threw in his ballcap! The very last Springfield mug is going too. Thanks Rob, Dave, and Julie!

Fourth and not least, THANKS TO ALL WHO MADE IT HAPPEN!!!!

CliffR

[Sharyn]

My first Single Stack Classic and WHAT FUN!!! What a great match!!!! Thanks to everyone for all the hard work they put into this match!

After shooting Open division almost exclusively for 3 years... this was a TOUGH match for me! A devastating run on my first stage (13) and I was pretty much burnt toast for the match... but being with such an awesome squad helped me get over that pretty quickly.

Here's some video footage I put together from the match:

2007 Single Stack Nationals

[zhunter]

Awesome Video Sharyn

[Carmoney]

In this situation. the muzzle and trigger command is quite appropriate. ROs are trained to warn the shooter to prevent an unsafe action. The rules specifically allow a safety warning as was quoted. "If the shooter is becoming unsafe warn them. If they are unsafe, stop them and DQ ."

Many shooter do not like the warning for two reasons. One they think they are done too much and secondly it "breaks" their concentration. Personally, I feel that is incorrect thinking. I would much rather get a warning if I am close rather than stop you're done with no warning. Just my 2 cents.

I guess it would be smart for the shooter who is planning to take shots that traverse the bay at close to (but not past) the 180 to let the RO know beforehand. That way the RO knows the shooter is not just waving his gun around wildly and "becoming unsafe," but is executing a specific plan for shooting the stage.

[Rob Boudrie]

Of you that think the R.O. carring is Creepy, how many of you carry a gun everyday? I don't go ANYWHERE without one, why should match day be any different. As long as he doesn't "play with it" wave it around...etc. why should we care?

Thee comments are about the rules and the issue of "staff carrying hot." I have no information specific to this match and do not wish to imply that I have concluded that such a practice did indeed occur.

USPSA matches are governed by a set of rules. If an RO is carrying a loaded gun they are doing so in direct violation of USPSA rules. We should "care" if the officials running a match start choosing which rules they are going to follow and which ones they are going to decide don't need to be enforced.

If someone has reliable information that an officially recognized Range Officer any match is carrying hot while working the event, it should be reported to the Match Director or Range Master and, if that does not result in corrective action, it should be reported to NROI / John Amidon (dnroi@uspsa.org) so he can re-educate the involved Range Officer.

I personally feel that matches should make provisions that allow lawfully armed individuals to unload upon arrival and reload upon departure, and have made a suggestion to that effect to the USPSA Rules Committee, however, that is a completely separate matter from "RO's carrying hot".

[pjb45]

Chad,

Thanks for the info on the RO. If I am not mistaken we were on squad 1 this year--squad mom-paul

We had a good squad. Lots of support and positive re-enforcement.

[JayWord]

In this situation. the muzzle and trigger command is quite appropriate. ROs are trained to warn the shooter to prevent an unsafe action. The rules specifically allow a safety warning as was quoted. "If the shooter is becoming unsafe warn them. If they are unsafe, stop them and DQ ."

Many shooter do not like the warning for two reasons. One they think they are done too much and secondly it "breaks" their concentration. Personally, I feel that is incorrect thinking. I would much rather get a warning if I am close rather than stop you're done with no warning. Just my 2 cents.

I guess it would be smart for the shooter who is planning to take shots that traverse the bay at close to (but not past) the 180 to let the RO know beforehand. That way the RO knows the shooter is not just waving his gun around wildly and "becoming unsafe," but is executing a specific plan for shooting the stage.

Hmm, You might have a point there. However, always remember that ROs are trained that Safety is Job #1. No IPSC shooter intends to shoot uprange, but it has happened in the past and it will in the future. I'm sure that the shooters who were DQ'ed last weekend for ADs did not intend to have one but it did happen. IPSC shooter are the most safety concious in the world but our sport has people running around with loaded guns, reloading under time and not just standing on a line shooting.

Some stages lend themselves to running close to the 180, we try to limit them, but we had two courses where right handed shooters were reloading going left and that tends to present problems for some shooters who cant the gun on reloads. It was a single stack match, so there were lots of reloads. For some shooters who shoot open or limited reloading seems to be a lost art.

Jay

[Anopsis]

Chad,

Thanks for the info on the RO. If I am not mistaken we were on squad 1 this year--squad mom-paul

We had a good squad. Lots of support and positive re-enforcement.

Ah, now I know who you are (squad mom did it for me). I was the heavyset guy in the maroon Wilson Combat t shirt. It was great shooting with you, and thanks for taking care of us!

[Rob Boudrie]

The SS stats crew now has the full results up on www.uspsa.org

[GENE S]

By the looks of the number of shooters, single stacked nationals is here to stay. That should help keep USPSA running along very niceley.

Good work.

[Carmoney]

Looking at those stage results, I really think the skill level of the Single Stack participants has improved markedly since last year, and I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that many more shooters are now competing regularly with a basic 1911 on a year-round basis.

I'll say this--the guys who have proven capable of performing at the higher levels of this match from year to year are a group of extremely impressive and skilled handgunners.

[Supershooter]

I really try to make a point to not post to shooting forms but I will make an exception today.

In my opinion this was one of the smoothest running matches I have ever been involved in. If you didn't shoot this match you missed a great one. Other then the staff and a few competitors who shot Thursday the weather was fantastic. I couldn't have ordered two better days. The stages ran on time or a little ahead even with the slightly larger amount of competitors per day. All the shooters should be commended with the way they helped out pasting and setting steel.

Our staff is a great group. Hard working, very professional, there to keep it safe and able to keep the atmosphere light. They are truly there to assist the competitors. No Range Nazi's in this bunch. Most of them have 10 years or more experience being Range Officers at this match. Almost all of the staff also shot the match for score on Thursday in the rain and the cold. This is one great group of guys! The stages were as hard as you wanted to make them. Very straight forward but there was a lot of risk reward with speed. Stepping on the gas could get you in trouble real fast. The only thing that really disappoint me was the amount of DQ's there were. Oh you always expect a few but 8 seemed like allot to me. There wasn't any shooter traps so I really can't explain it. Must have just been a loss of concentration or something by the shooters. It just made me sad to see them go.

Springfield really came forward with prizes. I didn't do a count but there must have been at least 20 guns given away by Springfield including 6 custom guns. I can't thank them enough for all the support they give the match. Smith & Wesson gave away randomly 3 M&P autos to shooters who shot their 1911 in the match. I think there was 5 names in the drawing. Good odds! The Single Stack doesn't do a conventional prize table. For the last few years we have done more of a participation award. Last year it was a Surefire flashlight and this year it was a really cool Kershaw boot knife. The match logo looked great on the blade.

Plans have already started for next year. Now none of this is stone yet. But we are kicking around the idea to adding Sunday to the match. It has always been there just in case of really bad weather. But after 13 years we have never had to use it. This should add 60-70 slots for the match. I'm also guessing by next year the Provisional label will be dropped by USPSA and the Single Stack will be a full blown division. Should be fun!

I hope to see you there in 2008.

Russell Cluver

Match Director SSC

[pjb45]

Russell,

This was my first SSC. It was awesome. You and your staff did a great job. I intend on returning next year. Thanks for putting on the best (and hardest) match I have ever attended.

[ExtremeShot]

Yep, I got rained on again this year. That's why I shot so crappy....or at least that's my excuse.

Great match Russell! Thanks to you and Dick for giving me the opportunity to RO.

Darren

Other then the staff and a few competitors who shot Thursday the weather was fantastic. [snip]

Almost all of the staff also shot the match for score on Thursday in the rain and the cold.

[snip]

Russell Cluver

Match Director SSC

[pjb45]

Wait, I did not get rained on, that is what I got all those no shoots!

Chad, I remember you and Eric very well. Like I said earlier-we had a pretty good squad.

Everyone kept asking me what kind of gun did I have--Wilson Frame, Caspian upper built by Tripp. Pretty different to say the least. I like Wilson's stuff. If you get a chance view Matt Burkett DVD taken at the Wilson facilities. Pretty good stuff.

Edited May 2, 2007 by pjb45