3 Lb Trigger For Production?

[sslav]

sslav,

Agreed, if you're going to do that for every pull, then let the SS guns play. Otherwise, everyone shooting a Glock, XD or striker fired gun can switch to a DA/SA gun, since that is what they are complaining about anyway. If there is a 3lb min pull, measure the first shot and if they dont like it, just switch or stop complaining.

If you're going to measure second shot and beyond, then allow SS in the game. Remember guys shooting Glock, XD or striker fired guns, you picked them, you can switch.

It just seems that a limit on every shot allows for a more inclusive division without disadvantaging or excluding anyone. Seems like a win-win.

That would be perfect. I'm sure STI produces enough Edges for that to become a Production legal gun too.

I believe the 2008 book includes a box for production. Problem solved.

[Action Pistolero]

We ran into this problem when NRA made all of us in Action Pistol go to a 2 pound trigger.

Could it be that USPSA is trying to adopt more of IPSC's rules? I can't find my green rulebook at the moment but I believe I remember reading that the IPSC trigger pull rule for production is 5 pounds.

Trigger pull gauges are not repeatable enough to check trigger pulls for competition. The operator has a lot to do with what weight the trigger will break. The only fair way to do it is a set of weights. In Action Pistol we found that a trigger weighed with a gauge that said it was a 2 pound trigger would not lift the weight. It took a 2.25 pound trigger that was weighed with a gauge to pick up a 2 pound weight.

Hopefully USPSA will not act like a communist organization, like nra, and listen to what the shooters want. The good news is that I believe that Michael Voight has a good head on his shoulders and will get more input before this is implemented.

[Gary Stevens]

Perhaps a look at who voted for it and who voted against it would be informative.

Gary

[ihatepickles]

I just reread the latest BOD minutes. There is no record of a vote on this issue.

Actually, my bad I found the vote. It's in the online minutes and not the face to face minutes.

Title: Production minimum Trigger Pull

Date of Motion: 11/15/06 04:25 PM

Closed: 11/15/06 12:00 AM

Submitted by: President

Seconded by: Area4

Status: Posted

Result: Passed

Motion: Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition

Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area2: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area4: Yes

Area5: No, Rollcall Requested

Area6: No, Rollcall Requested

Area7: No, Rollcall Requested

Area8: No, Rollcall Requested

President: Yes, Rollcall Requested

[Jim Norman]

OK, I have a spring pull trigger guage. I have a XD with a really nice trigger. Subjective, it feels as good as my Para with a trigger by George at EGW, 2 lbs.

So, i verified my XD was still empty, I held the gun in a manner that allowed me to depress the grip safety and placed the hook of the triigeer guage on the trigger below the pivot point of the safety (it sort of just goes to that point when you put a little tension on it) and I pulled slowly rearward. 1 pound, 2 pounds, 3 pounds, 4 pounds, 4 pounds 4 ounces! So here we go, If you felt this trigger you would likely feel as I did that it was as light as a SA Limited gun. Three pulls of the trigger with trigger guage carefully placed and three readings of 4 plus pounds.

So where does this leave us? I have absolutely no idea, other than I am probably OK under the new rule. Now mind you, that doesn't mean I agree with it, just that I will be still shooting production with my XD.

It also means that trigger pull is likely a very subjective thing. As I would have likely bet real money, up to a full quarter at least, that the trigger job on my XD was well under 3 pounds. In truth, all I really care about is that the pull is smooth and even and always the same.

Jim

[ihatepickles]

So, i verified my XD was still empty, I held the gun in a manner that allowed me to depress the grip safety and placed the hook of the triigeer guage on the trigger below the pivot point of the safety (it sort of just goes to that point when you put a little tension on it) and I pulled slowly rearward. 1 pound, 2 pounds, 3 pounds, 4 pounds, 4 pounds 4 ounces!

The IPSC trigger measuring technique doesn't state the requirement to deactivate the grip safety. You'd probably be able to hang your body weight off of the trigger without a 'click'. Same with Glocks, you place the weights in the center of the trigger bow and the the gun will not fire.

I really (REALLY) dislike the idea of adopting more IPSC-like rules.

[raz-0]

Ok first off, everyone who is arguing about the name of the "Production" devision and the definition of the word production.

The definiton

Main Entry: pro·duc·tion

Pronunciation: pr&-'d&k-sh&n, prO-

Function: noun

1 a : something produced : PRODUCT b (1) : a literary or artistic work (2) : a work presented to the public (as on the stage or screen or over the air) c : something exaggerated out of proportion to its importance

2 a : the act or process of producing b : the creation of utility; especially : the making of goods available for use

3 : total output especially of a commodity or an industry

4 often attributive : something not specially designed or customized and usually mass-produced <a production car> <production housing>

I think 2 and 3 can be safely ignored as not being applicable to describing a gun in this context.

I'll take a gun as an example that has nobody on either side of it because it is unavailabel as of yet. The Sig p220 varient for the JFP competition. It pretty much brings nothing to the table for the current production division, and wasn't designed to game anything as far as I can tell.

It meets #1 above, but doesn't meet #4 above unless you start making qualifications. It was indeed specially designed for a target group as are most anything looking to make large military or LEO sales.

By that smae logic, I can also say that a smith&wesson 410s is intended for the LEO market, and thus was specially designed as such.. If not that, make the argument fo the 4006TSW which is only in their LE list of pistols.

So add the right wording to make it USPSA specific. I.e. "something not specially designed or customized for USPSA and usually mass-produced."

OK, then the 4006TSW might be ok and the Sig JFP entrant might if it gets mass produced for the tacticool crowd to snap up. But what about Guns like the M&P which to me smack of being designed with the input of a competitive shooter even though priomarily being marketed to the LE community? It'd probably be gone as soon as the gatekeeper of this imagined intent said so.

So then, if any gun that is desinged with the lessons learned form USPSA comes to market, it might instantly be banned form production division. Which pretty much goes right against the intent of USPSA/IPSC, which was to figure out what is best for practical shooting. Any technology that comes out of our sport would instantly be banned from production.

Production is a name, probably an unfortunately chosen one, and does not define the division. Stop squabbling over this aspect. It clearly wasn't the intent as a factory 1911 gun was explicitly excluded from the get go.

There was an intent with the divison. I don't know if we get to debate that, or if it is evenly properly understood by anyone. What should be done, regardless of what is decided is to define the intent of the division and what qualifies for use in it as clearly as possible while making those definitions enforceable. Bascially sort out what of the available firearms out there are allowed to play, and codify why well enough that newcomers can be sorted with as little legitimate confusion as possible.

I shoot production, and going back to the notion that modifications should not sacrifice practical usability for competitive advantage, I can think of a reason to limit it that isn't sour grapes about "equipment races". If you were to find yourself in a physical struggle, and were trying to retrieve a dropped gun to end that struggle, even if yanking it across the ground by the trigger with your mark 1 booger hook, you probably wouldn't want it to go off. I'd argue a number of the trigger jobs in production wouldn't make the cut on that even under generous conditions. I honestly question if ANY pistol without an active safety engaged could be made to pass that test if given a sharp enough yank and a rough enough surface. I certainly can't imagine creating a metric that wouldn't just set an arbitrary measure claiming to maximize survival while minimizing the threat to bystanders.

Even in the real world, the line has to be drawn someplace. The fact that departments issue glocks and sigs shows that although my concern is practical, the line has been drawn someplace that doesn't exclude them even though they may fail my practical scenario under real world circumstances.

I can think of a number of other practical scenarios limiting trigger pull weight. However, I have not yet devised a way to practically implement anything that simulates them in a uniform manner that is easily reproduced and repeated by club in a resonable and affordable manner. Given that, I don't want to subject any MD at any level to having their match results held hostage by something that isn't repeatable and reproducable being argued by cranky competitors.

[SIXXgun]

What the hell difference does a pound of trigger pull make anyways? Once you get into say A class or better, that pound is meaningless. It might make a difference in the D or C classes, but that is great because it rewards, promotes and encourages shooters to work harder and move up by increasing their skills. Production does it's best to level the playing field with holsters, capacity, and belt position. I would estimate that the majority of production shooters run a Glock or XD, and either of these are simple to modify the trigger pull. If you can't do it yourself, somebody will do it for you for 150 bones or less. I don't really see how this modification becomes an equipment race. Enlighten me.

JM

[vluc]

What the hell difference does a pound of trigger pull make anyways? Once you get into say A class or better, that pound is meaningless. It might make a difference in the D or C classes, but that is great because it rewards, promotes and encourages shooters to work harder and move up by increasing their skills. Production does it's best to level the playing field with holsters, capacity, and belt position. I would estimate that the majority of production shooters run a Glock or XD, and either of these are simple to modify the trigger pull. If you can't do it yourself, somebody will do it for you for 150 bones or less. I don't really see how this modification becomes an equipment race. Enlighten me.

JM

Many of us are still waiting to hear the answer to that question.

IMHO, the USPSA President, who proposed it, has a responsibility to state his reasons for doing so to the membership. State what the problem is and how this will fix it. If BOD members who opposed it can state their comments and face the membership, he should follow their example and do the same.

Edited December 26, 2006 by vluc

[Carmoney]

Sorry, Mike, I missed that one. Sounds like a case of an obvious idiot driving a piece of hardware he was not qualified for. If not too much trouble, can you dig up a case reference so I can look it up?

Mark, I'll drop you a PM with some more info on the Alvarez incident, since it seems a bit off-topic for this thread.

[Carmoney]

It apparently was a bona fide self-defense shooting by the police officer, though, not an accident caused by a "hair trigger." That didn't stop the prosecutors from making that argument, though....

Lotsa racial politics involved in the case.

[Carlos]

JM

IMHO, the USPSA President, who proposed it, has a responsibility to state his reasons for doing so to the membership. State what the problem is and how this will fix it. If BOD members who opposed it can state their comments and face the membership, he should follow their example and do the same.

Agreed. Would like to hear an explanation of "why" USPSA is deemed to "need" this new rule. Has there been a problem in Production Division we are not aware of?

Regards,

C.

[Bigbadaboom]

I find it funny that Voight voted yes for the 3 lb. rule after I saw him on Shooting USA during the Bianchi Cup complaining on TV about the 2 lb. rule placed upon them. I wonder if he would vote yes on a minimum trigger pull for open?

Edited December 26, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[EricBudd]

I find it funny that Voight voted yes for the 3 lb. rule after I saw him on Shooting USA during the Bianchi Cup complaining on TV about the 2 lb. rule placed upon them. I wonder if he would vote yes on a minimum trigger pull for open?

I've been shooting Production all this year and plan to shoot Production in 2007. However, with the proposed changes to Production to make it more something (TaticalKewl, MallNija, IDPA friendly?) I'm starting to think I should just move to Limited. Seems enough of the higher-ups shoot Limited and Open so those divisions ought to be safe from tinkering with the rules .

Eric

[midvalleyshooter]

So I'm guessing the reasoning behind a 3 lb trigger limit is because of a perception of a DA/SA trigger (Sig, CZ, S&W, etc.) not being equal to the striker fired triggers (Glocks, XD's, etc.)???

What other reason could it be?

I do wish I had a $1 for every time new rules, divisions or categories did not turn out quite as planned in all the different sports and games. Specificly for USPSA some examples are:

Limited

170 mm mags

L10

Production

Oh well, to make a decision always runs the risk of unintended consequences. I give the BOD and President credit for trying to do the right thing. And in the mean time I will leave my new pistol stock and see how this ruling shakes out.

Thanks for all the input folks,

Keith

Edited December 26, 2006 by midvalleyshooter

[ysued]

So I'm guessing the reasoning behind a 3 lb trigger limit is because of a perception of a DA/SA trigger (Sig, CZ, S&W, etc.) not being equal to the striker fired triggers (Glocks, XD's, etc.)???

You are Right, they are not equal!!

Under the new Rules:

In the striker Fired guns you get Consistent 3 Lb Trigger Pulls

With the DA/SA guns you get a 3 Lb D/A First Shot and 1.5 Lb Single Action Shots after the First Shot.

So, when you put it that way, the D/A-S/A Guns "DO" Have an Advantage!!

[Vlad]

I'm just curious, does anyone actually have a gun for which the DA shot is 4lb or less and it still lights up the primers? I'm not being cute with this question, I'm just really curious how well that would work seeing how you need to hand compress the hammer spring all the way with your DA pull.

[ysued]

I'm just curious, does anyone actually have a gun for which the DA shot is 4lb or less and it still lights up the primers? I'm not being cute with this question, I'm just really curious how well that would work seeing how you need to hand compress the hammer spring all the way with your DA pull.

That's a question fro Revolver Shooters after randy Lee goes over their Guns!!

His DA pulls go under 4 Lbs!!

Y

[Nik Habicht]

I'm just curious, does anyone actually have a gun for which the DA shot is 4lb or less and it still lights up the primers? I'm not being cute with this question, I'm just really curious how well that would work seeing how you need to hand compress the hammer spring all the way with your DA pull.

Lightest I've personally felt has been a 6.5-7 lb. first shot pull on a Beretta, with an absolutely sweet SA pull....

[GeorgeInNePa]

The motion on the USPSA webpage reads from the "hammer down, fully decocked position".

Gary

How would that work with a Glock, XD, or other striker fired guns? Hmmm.

I'm pretty sure that from the fully de-cocked position I could hang my body weight off the trigger without the gun going click.....

Well, it might not click, but it might cry "uncle".

[Nik Habicht]

The motion on the USPSA webpage reads from the "hammer down, fully decocked position".

Gary

How would that work with a Glock, XD, or other striker fired guns? Hmmm.

I'm pretty sure that from the fully de-cocked position I could hang my body weight off the trigger without the gun going click.....

Well, it might not click, but it might cry "uncle".

Nah, my Glocks are tough! Yours might start squealing though.....

[Mo Hepworth]

I felt a very low SP01 DA trigger pull, had all the bells and whistles. Felt like 6.5lbs.

that is the lightest I have felt.

[Carmoney]

I'm just curious, does anyone actually have a gun for which the DA shot is 4lb or less and it still lights up the primers? I'm not being cute with this question, I'm just really curious how well that would work seeing how you need to hand compress the hammer spring all the way with your DA pull.

That's a question fro Revolver Shooters after randy Lee goes over their Guns!!

His DA pulls go under 4 Lbs!!

Y

Take a revolver trigger under four pounds and you will start to get intermittent clicks, even with Federal primers and good ammo. I know lots of guys who run the super-light revolver actions, and I have seen a number of them experience misfires during big matches. I have the DA pull on my 625 set at around 5.25 pounds and I know I can trust it to run 100% if I feed it the correct ammo.

[vluc]

Folks, I kindly invite you to go over to the uspsa forum and raise a ruckus over there on this and other issues.

If we are being told that answers to questions will only be done on the "official" forum, lets fill it up with questions.

[Bill Rosenthal]

Just admit it... The division was created and everyone then proceeded to game it out!

The DOH (not a real holster), ammo carriers away from the body, expensive trigger jobs, etc. Sort of like stock car racing. Richard Petty once said when asked about what's stock on a stock car... "Well, it looks like a Pontiac"!

In the spirit of the division, there should be no modifications at all. This is the problem with not fully thinking things out before you act. That's what they should have done at the start!

Rule US blah-blah point blah-blah: ...only as provided from the factory. Also specifically excluded are the special models created just for competition (Glock 34, 35).