3 Lb Trigger For Production?

[Carmoney]

This hysteria about light triggers is only well ingrained in popular culture because so many magazines have been sold with the boggie-man admonition that a light trigger will get you in trouble in court. So far, I haven't had anyone cite a specific case reference where this has happened. Can you provide one?

Well, I can. The classic example is the incident in which Miami police officer Luis Alvarez was criminally prosecuted following his shooting of a gang-banger in a video arcade back in the '80s. The case is fairly well-known because of the street riots and looting that broke out following the shooting incident. During trial, the prosecution claimed that Alvarez thumb-cocked his revolver, and then accidentally--yet recklessly--fired a bullet through the suspect's head when he made a sudden move. The jury was shown exactly how light the trigger pull is on a cocked S&W double-action revolver (about 2 pounds, approximately the same as the original Vanek Glock trigger or maybe a Canyon Creek XD, right?) Justice ultimately prevailed, but the case proved that having a very light trigger pull even available on a defense gun can be a potential liability in the legal aftermatch of a shooting.

[ima45dv8]

We can argue this back and forth all week, and it still doesn't make a damn difference.

I had a nice nap today, so I'm ready.

The point I was attempting to make was related to what do people expect when we use the word "Production". If a case was ever prosecuted based on that argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is perception of what production means to the average Joe and what production means to USPSA. As it stands other sports can claim that USPSA is for racers/gamers only and that you need a race gun to even enter the game. I ask you again, what does the word mean to you?

As far as I know (and here's what the word means to me), people expect a Production gun to be in the same configuration as it came from the factory. "Same configuration" applies to whether the gun was SA, DA, DA/SA, DOA, etc. If someone works on the trigger to make it more user friendly without changing the configuration, then no problem.

Uhh .. Like what? No one seems to argue if a 1.5lb spring is safe or not. The argument about its suitability for PRODUCTION division.

It's perfectly suitable for Production division as long as the basic functionality of the pistol (i.e., DA, DA/SA, DAO, etc.) is not altered.

Ok .. I guess I can claim that white is black if I turn off the light.

You're straying well off the path here. Stick to the discussion of whether a legally recognized Production pistol should suddenly be excluded because the trigger pull is lightened. And be sure to address WHY.

What is the difference between a SAO with only 1/8" take up and 1.5lb pull and a XD with 1/8" takeup and 1.5lb trigger pull? I think the whole point of the rule change is not what is currently legal under the existing rule book, but the fact that a whole bunch of people think that the current rules are broken by allowing what you describe. Yes it is legal today, hopefully it won't be in the next rule book.

The difference is based on the action of the pistol as it comes from the factory - DA. DA/SA, SAO, DSO, etc.

I guess I was asking why do we need another division for SAO guns.

We don't.

+++++++++++++++++++++

OK, this has been fun so far, but you haven't been able to make a reasonable argument as to why a currently-legal pistol should be banned because someone performed a trigger job on it. Or is the only objection that such a pistol provides some sort of unfair advantage? How is that unfair if any one is allowed to do the same? If that's the case, then trigger jobs should be disallowed in all divisions, shouldn't they?

Much is made of the fact that it's not the Indian, but the Arrow. So are people now going to start whining that the other Indian is using better Arrows? If so, get some better arrows of your own and go forth into battle. Otherwise, these arguments seem very much like the schoolyard snifflings of those that couldn't measure up, regardless of the equipment involved.

[ima45dv8]

This hysteria about light triggers is only well ingrained in popular culture because so many magazines have been sold with the boggie-man admonition that a light trigger will get you in trouble in court. So far, I haven't had anyone cite a specific case reference where this has happened. Can you provide one?

Well, I can. The classic example is the incident in which Miami police officer Luis Alvarez was criminally prosecuted following his shooting of a gang-banger in a video arcade back in the '80s. The case is fairly well-known because of the street riots and looting that broke out following the shooting incident. During trial, the prosecution claimed that Alvarez thumb-cocked his revolver, and then accidentally--yet recklessly--fired a bullet through the suspect's head when he made a sudden move. The jury was shown exactly how light the trigger pull is on a cocked S&W double-action revolver (about 2 pounds, approximately the same as the original Vanek Glock trigger or maybe a Canyon Creek XD, right?) Justice ultimately prevailed, but the case proved that having a very light trigger pull even available on a defense gun can be a potential liability in the legal aftermatch of a shooting.

Sorry, Mike, I missed that one. Sounds like a case of an obvious idiot driving a piece of hardware he was not qualified for. If not too much trouble, can you dig up a case reference so I can look it up?

[Wideload]

for ipsc. on major matches during chrono. once a production gun seems to have a less than a 5 pound pull. the chronoman flicks out the trigger pull guage.

If its less than 5 pounds he will be the first one to welcome you to open division.

Dont have an idea on USPSA though

Thus the question about enforcement -- Chronoman's perception is not exactly an objective and discrete science indicating when he should pull out the trigger pull gauge.

Also regarding the "evil light trigger" in a defensive scenario, no matter how you look at it... USPSA Production division (or IPSC Production as far as that is concerned) is still a form of competitive -- sport -- shooting. We keep times and scores, and shoot for recognition and sometimes prizes! Given a choice, one would not choose their competition pistol(s) as their primary self defense tool.

[Vlad]

As far as I know (and here's what the word means to me), people expect a Production gun to be in the same configuration as it came from the factory. "Same configuration" applies to whether the gun was SA, DA, DA/SA, DOA, etc. If someone works on the trigger to make it more user friendly without changing the configuration, then no problem.

Maybe my english language skills are letting me down. Does "same configuration" only apply to thing YOU like? How can you say that replacing springs, using aftermarket parts, and altering factory parts is the same configuration?

It's perfectly suitable for Production division as long as the basic functionality of the pistol (i.e., DA, DA/SA, DAO, etc.) is not altered.

Yes you are right, under current rules. The whole point is that the current rules are flawed, in my opinion. My point is that if you lighten a trigger enough, and if you modify enough of it, it is functionally equivalent to a SAO trigger, no matter what its original configuration was. The basic functionality IS being altered.

Finally, I would appreciate it if you toned down your "voice" a bit. I'm trying to a reason discussioned of the subject and I'm sick of these threads getting locked because people can't contain their emotions. We all get attached to this issues but it would help to remember it is only a game.

Ok .. I guess I can claim that white is black if I turn off the light.

You're straying well off the path here. Stick to the discussion of whether a legally recognized Production pistol should suddenly be excluded because the trigger pull is lightened. And be sure to address WHY.

I am sticking to the discussion. You are claiming that you can make any changes you want to the original gun and still call it not a SAO because thats what the factory called it. My point is that if you modify a gun enough it no longer matches the original function. There is a philosophy thought experiment which refers to the nature of objects: Assuming you start with a new car and slowly replace EVERY part, at which point is it no longer the same car? This is not a business in which USPSA want to be mixed. We shouldn't be in the business of trying to figure out how much you can replace from a gun before it no longer is a production gun. A simple way to fix that problem is to set limits to the functional aspects of the gun so there is no need to keep on modifing the gun beyond its design. Thats what a trigger pull limit is.

You ask why a recognized Production pistol should be excluded. No reason. However a MODIFIED pistol that started as a production gun, should no longer qualify.

What is the difference between a SAO with only 1/8" take up and 1.5lb pull and a XD with 1/8" takeup and 1.5lb trigger pull? I think the whole point of the rule change is not what is currently legal under the existing rule book, but the fact that a whole bunch of people think that the current rules are broken by allowing what you describe. Yes it is legal today, hopefully it won't be in the next rule book.

The difference is based on the action of the pistol as it comes from the factory - DA. DA/SA, SAO, DSO, etc.

But you have modified that action. It no longer is what it came from the factory. That is the whole point.

OK, this has been fun so far, but you haven't been able to make a reasonable argument as to why a currently-legal pistol should be banned because someone performed a trigger job on it. Or is the only objection that such a pistol provides some sort of unfair advantage? How is that unfair if any one is allowed to do the same? If that's the case, then trigger jobs should be disallowed in all divisions, shouldn't they?

There are a bunch of other divisions in which that is already the case. By your logic we should be able to add magwells, porting, and optics to production guns. After all everyone else would be allowed so whats the big deal? Production is a division with restrictions. You you don't like restriction then don't shoot Production. If my arguments are not reasonable to you the please tell me are you in favor of ANY limitations on production? Please explain to me how you draw the line is someone else doesn't like where YOU draw the line in the sand?

Much is made of the fact that it's not the Indian, but the Arrow. So are people now going to start whining that the other Indian is using better Arrows? If so, get some better arrows of your own and go forth into battle. Otherwise, these arguments seem very much like the schoolyard snifflings of those that couldn't measure up, regardless of the equipment involved.

Oh for the love of Pete! You can't have it both ways. Either the equipment matters or it doesn't You can't complain that people are just whining because the couldn't measure up regardless of equipment, and tell them to buy better equipment like everyone else in the same paragraph. If that trigger pull is not an advantage then you can't complain about limits imposed on it. On the other hand, if trigger pull does matter, then you need to look at the Production division and realize that its rules are designed to flaten the equipment performance curve.

edited to add: why the heck did my quote formating break?

Edited December 25, 2006 by Vlad

[MarkS_A18138]

just have us sell all of our prodution guns! Uspsa can sell us a gun that they choose and be done with it. Oh shit than they can call them IROC guns! If people think there is cheating going on now in that class than just wait! Leave it alone!!!! Yes I am one of them that spent a shit load on a gun!

Edited December 25, 2006 by MarkS_A18138

[Loves2Shoot]

The "trigger weight doesn't matter so we should't care" argument is a red herring. Trigger weight clearly matters or people wouldn't try to lighten up their triggers and get upset when we start talking about limits.

Try to sell that to Dave Sevigny...

It is a red herring and imposble to make fair as different guns will measure out differently using the current trigger measuring technique.

The motion on the USPSA webpage reads from the "hammer down, fully decocked position".

Gary

How would that work with a Glock, XD, or other striker fired guns? Hmmm.

[ima45dv8]

Maybe my english language skills are letting me down. Does "same configuration" only apply to thing YOU like? How can you say that replacing springs, using aftermarket parts, and altering factory parts is the same configuration?

My points of discussion are based solely on what the rules say. I haven't said anything about what I like, and I certainly didn't say anything about replacing springs or aftermarket parts or altering factory parts.

Yes you are right, under current rules. The whole point is that the current rules are flawed, in my opinion. My point is that if you lighten a trigger enough, and if you modify enough of it, it is functionally equivalent to a SAO trigger, no matter what its original configuration was. The basic functionality IS being altered.

I would appreciate it if you could offer some facts as to how polished trigger parts are no longer non-SAO.

Finally, I would appreciate it if you toned down your "voice" a bit. I'm trying to a reason discussioned of the subject and I'm sick of these threads getting locked because people can't contain their emotions. We all get attached to this issues but it would help to remember it is only a game.

Vlad, you lost me there, buddy. I didn't realize my tone had been anything but reasoned and analytical. I didn't realize that a differing viewpoint would qualify as emotional.

I am sticking to the discussion. You are claiming that you can make any changes you want to the original gun and still call it not a SAO because thats what the factory called it. My point is that if you modify a gun enough it no longer matches the original function. There is a philosophy thought experiment which refers to the nature of objects: Assuming you start with a new car and slowly replace EVERY part, at which point is it no longer the same car? This is not a business in which USPSA want to be mixed. We shouldn't be in the business of trying to figure out how much you can replace from a gun before it no longer is a production gun. A simple way to fix that problem is to set limits to the functional aspects of the gun so there is no need to keep on modifing the gun beyond its design. Thats what a trigger pull limit is.

You ask why a recognized Production pistol should be excluded. No reason. However a MODIFIED pistol that started as a production gun, should no longer qualify.

Sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth. I never said one could replace as many parts as they wish and still calll a gun "Production". Stick to the facts and the discussion at hand. If someone polishes the action of a gun to the point that it has a trigger pull of less then 3 lbs., it is still the same pistol and still fits the criteria of the division as defines by USPSA (today). That should not be held as an illegal mod just because someone else thinks that a lighter trigger pull is what beat them in a match.

What is the difference between a SAO with only 1/8" take up and 1.5lb pull and a XD with 1/8" takeup and 1.5lb trigger pull? I think the whole point of the rule change is not what is currently legal under the existing rule book, but the fact that a whole bunch of people think that the current rules are broken by allowing what you describe. Yes it is legal today, hopefully it won't be in the next rule book.

But you have modified that action. It no longer is what it came from the factory. That is the whole point.

So any modifications should be disallowed? How about grip tape/TruGrip/A-Grip/sight changes, etc.? The gun would no longer be as it came from the factory so it should be illegal, yes?

By your logic we should be able to add magwells, porting, and optics to production guns. After all everyone else would be allowed so whats the big deal? Production is a division with restrictions. You you don't like restriction then don't shoot Production. If my arguments are not reasonable to you the please tell me are you in favor of ANY limitations on production? Please explain to me how you draw the line is someone else doesn't like where YOU draw the line in the sand?

I never said anything about magwells or porting or optics, did I?

To answer your question, Yes, I am in favor limitations....if reasonable and within the defined limitations of the division. But no shooter that I've known, competition or otherwise, would consider a pistol off limits to a trigger job. The fact that factories choose to lawyer-proof their designs has no bearing in my post-consumer world. Almost everyone I know makes changes to guns they buy. Some even make changes that they shouldn't (like triangular sights ).

Oh for the love of Pete! You can't have it both ways. Either the equipment matters or it doesn't You can't complain that people are just whining because the couldn't measure up regardless of equipment, and tell them to buy better equipment like everyone else in the same paragraph. If that trigger pull is not an advantage then you can't complain about limits imposed on it. On the other hand, if trigger pull does matter, then you need to look at the Production division and realize that its rules are designed to flaten the equipment performance curve.

I didn't say the arrows were the determining factor. I simply said if someone believes that to be the case, get as good a bunch of arrows as they like and find a match nearby. Not limiting trigger jobs in Production will let them do exactly that.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This has been fun, but the fact is, trigger jobs are not what determines a pistol's category. At least, not until some ill-advised BoD members decided to change the rules. I can't understand what they based that decision on.

I think they are wrong. You do not. That's fine. But I maintain my original proposal of a survey to see what the population of USPSA members thinks of the idea. We should put a poll on USPSA.org and get some feedback before making a bad decision in a vacuum.

[Nik Habicht]

The motion on the USPSA webpage reads from the "hammer down, fully decocked position".

Gary

How would that work with a Glock, XD, or other striker fired guns? Hmmm.

I'm pretty sure that from the fully de-cocked position I could hang my body weight off the trigger without the gun going click.....

[Vlad]

I would appreciate it if you could offer some facts as to how polished trigger parts are no longer non-SAO.

So you are saying that simple polishing of the factory parts will drop triggers bellow 3 lb? No one gives a rats behind about polishing and removing burrs. It takes a lot more then polishing of factory parts to reduce the trigger bellow 3lb.

Vlad, you lost me there, buddy. I didn't realize my tone had been anything but reasoned and analytical. I didn't realize that a differing viewpoint would qualify as emotional.

Maybe it is just me, but calling people whinners who can't measure up is not my definition of a reasoned argument.

You ask why a recognized Production pistol should be excluded. No reason. However a MODIFIED pistol that started as a production gun, should no longer qualify.

Sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth. I never said one could replace as many parts as they wish and still calll a gun "Production". Stick to the facts and the discussion at hand.

I'm not putting words into your mouth nor changing the subject you wrote:

It's perfectly suitable for Production division as long as the basic functionality of the pistol (i.e., DA, DA/SA, DAO, etc.) is not altered.

I argue that you have removed enough material you have altered the functionality of the pistol.

So any modifications should be disallowed? How about grip tape/TruGrip/A-Grip/sight changes, etc.? The gun would no longer be as it came from the factory so it should be illegal, yes?

I belive that modification within limits are alright. I don't even mind trigger jobs withing certain limits. The problem you seem to not be able to recognize that people have taken the exiting rules and run wild. The limits where not very well described and the new rules would redefine those limits.

To answer your question, Yes, I am in favor limitations....if reasonable and within the defined limitations of the division. But no shooter that I've known, competition or otherwise, would consider a pistol off limits to a trigger job.

And no one has argued against a trigger job. Read back through ALL my posts on this forum and tell me where you see that. The whole point of this rule and of this argument is how far can you go with a trigger job. Yet you still didn't explain to me the difference between a "true" SAO gun an a striker fire gun which has been modified to 1.5lb trigger pull. Not being a SAO gun is still the core requirement of the division, even if you don't like it. If you are for defined limitations, then this is all about defining them.

Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, it doesn't seem to me that you actually shoot production all that much. I'm not saying that because I shoot production all the time and you don't my opinion is more valubable then yours, but if you want to have a poll lets actually poll the people who shoot the division regularly. I might have opinions on speedloaders vs moonclips, but as I don't even own a revolver I don't think USPSA should give a damn what I think when they try to make the rules.

The "trigger weight doesn't matter so we should't care" argument is a red herring. Trigger weight clearly matters or people wouldn't try to lighten up their triggers and get upset when we start talking about limits.

Try to sell that to Dave Sevigny...

Look, you can't have it both ways. Either it matters, in which case the fact that it doesn't matter to ONE guy is irrelevant, or it dosen't make any difference in which case why does anyone get upset if there is a minimum pull? I'd bet a bottle of Makers Mark that Dave's limited gun has a lightened trigger.

[Flexmoney]

It's a sin tax.

[ysued]

I belive that modification within limits are alright. I don't even mind trigger jobs withing certain limits. The problem you seem to not be able to recognize that people have taken the exiting rules and run wild. The limits where not very well described and the new rules would redefine those limits.

++++++1,000

this has been my argument all along!!

I shoot Production Division exclusively now, I am against the Trigger Pull limit, not because of the limit, but because of Enforcement!! Some members have run with the Existing Rules into such extremes that Enforcement at this time would be almost impossible!!

I have heard some members complain about the 2LB Vanek Triggers because they shoot a DA/SA gun with the argument "I have a 4 LB first shot" !! The problem is that they never tell you that every shot after that first 4Lb Shot is a 1.5Lb S/A Shot!! Now who has an advantage??

My argument is that Rules need clarification and enforcement.

Should the rules been clearer and more concise from Day One?? Absolutely!!

But several years have gone by and countless Rulings and changes to the rules have taken place, and like you said above some have taken our current rules to the breaking point.

We should all work together along with the BOD to achieve a new set of rules, a set that is clear and concise with no loopholes. Is everybody going to be happy with the new set of rules?? Never!! But to Quote the Great Philosopher Mr Spock, "The good of the many outweigh the needs of the Few, or the One"

Lets all work for the common goal of the new Rules for the Good of USPSA and it's 15K+ Members, not the few gusy that want to Game the Rules and Place High enough to get to the Price table early enough not to get stuck with the Sample packet of Shock Buffs and Break-Free like I do!!

Feliz Navidad a todos

Y

[Loves2Shoot]

I'd bet a bottle of Makers Mark that Dave's limited gun has a lightened trigger.

I've pull the trigger on Dave's gun. Do you want to send me a bottle?

Guns work different, so you would have to make a test for each type to make it "fair." I know enforcement would be a nightmare and takeup precious match resources.

[sslav]

So whats the problem you ask? IPSC and USPSA always worry about equipment races and welcoming new shooters. If striker fired guns with 1.5lb are considered superior then the perception will be that DA guns can't compete in production and again have no home. The production division was supposed to be their home.

That is a fair concern. But if the limit is placed only on the first shot - fully deckocked postision, would that not then give the advantage to the DA/SA guns? Would the 3lb first and every other shot of a Glock or an XD be a sufficient balance for a 4lb first shot and 30 or so 1.5 lb shots from a DA/SA gun? Seems like under those circumstances those that would concider a DA/SA gun "non competitive" before would now find striker fired guns "non-competitive" and you once again have a category of guns with no home. So how is this a solution?

The "trigger weight doesn't matter so we should't care" argument is a red herring. Trigger weight clearly matters or people wouldn't try to lighten up their triggers and get upset when we start talking about limits.

I am too new to the sport to express a qualified opinion as to whether the trigger weight matters. Everyone that I have spoken with who has any experience in the sport seems to have a trigger job of some sort. So I have to conclude that it does matter. Musashi may have been able to kick ass with a wooden bokken but every other samurai tended towards a pig sticker with a decent edge on it. But this point not relevant on either side of the argument. If it does not matter then obviously the limit is not necessary. If it matters then you end up disadvantaging some class of guns by either having or not having a limit.

And are DA/SA guns really disadvantaged under current rules. From what I see in our club there is not an overwhelming number of Glocks and XDs in production. There are plenty CZs and SIGs -- and in use by some of the better shooters of which you are one. So it is not a choice that is being made out of ignorance. So is it a problem that they are trying to fix or the perception that there is a problem?

Edited December 25, 2006 by sslav

[Rising Sight]

This trigger issue is a big deal. I say we all set our production triggers at 10lbs and be done with it.

[Jim Norman]

How about this?

Ignore the first pull, hammer down, decocked, since XD, M&P and Glock only function one way and measure the second pull.

Set that at a reasonable limit, say 2 pounds. Now the "safe action" triggers are rated equally against the majority of the shots fired by the true DA guns.

And I do shoot Production so I do have a horse in this race.

Jim

[ysued]

Jim,

You are Evil!!

I love the idea!!

Those who complain that they have a nasty 4 LB first D/A Shot and follow up with 9 to 30 Single Action 1.5Lb Trigger Pulls will hit the roof though

I shoot production, I shot 2 seasons with w G17 with Heinie Sights and the Factory 3.5Lb Connector, with nothing else done to the gun, absolutely nothing!!

Now I shoot with a M&P9 with A Dan Burwell 3.5Lb Trigger Job, Dan Burwell Rear Sights and a Speed Shooters Specialties Fiber Optic Front Sight, and that's it!! I feel competitive enough with this setup. I have the same Trigger Pull from the first to the last shot, I really don't feel good when someone tells me that I have a competitive advantage when they have only one 4Lb Double Action Trigger Pull and the rest are Single Action 1.5Lb Pulls. Homey don't play that!!

Y

How about this?

Ignore the first pull, hammer down, decocked, since XD, M&P and Glock only function one way and measure the second pull.

Set that at a reasonable limit, say 2 pounds. Now the "safe action" triggers are rated equally against the majority of the shots fired by the true DA guns.

And I do shoot Production so I do have a horse in this race.

Jim

[Vlad]

I've always said that I was in favor of a minimum pull for EVERY shot. I'm perfectly ok with a limit of 3lb for EVERY shot, thus removing the DA/SA shots being 4/1.

[sslav]

I've always said that I was in favor of a minimum pull for EVERY shot. I'm perfectly ok with a limit of 3lb for EVERY shot, thus removing the DA/SA shots being 4/1.

With a rule like that in place, why not elliminate the DA requirement altogether and let SA play too? Wouldn't that elliminate the need for SS?

[ysued]

I've always said that I was in favor of a minimum pull for EVERY shot. I'm perfectly ok with a limit of 3lb for EVERY shot, thus removing the DA/SA shots being 4/1.

With a rule like that in place, why not elliminate the DA requirement altogether and let SA play too? Wouldn't that elliminate the need for SS?

And it would open up a place for the Browning Hi-Power in 9mm to play in!!

Good idea!!

Y

[Vlad]

Huh? So if we set a minium trigger pull to keep DA from getting to light we might just well make it a SA division but if we allow no limits then we are not making it a SA division?

As I've said already, if we want to redefine Production to include SA guns and have categories I'd be open to it, but then you still need limits for the categories.

[sslav]

Huh? So if we set a minium trigger pull to keep DA from getting to light we might just well make it a SA division but if we allow no limits then we are not making it a SA division?

As I've said already, if we want to redefine Production to include SA guns and have categories I'd be open to it, but then you still need limits for the categories.

Well what is the difference between a 3lb on every shot Glock and a 3lb on every shot 1911?

To clarify - I am not arguing against a limit on every pull. I like it. I just think that if you have such a limit, why not allow SA guns in as well? What is the drawback?

Edited December 26, 2006 by sslav

[Rising Sight]

Maybe we should make a division for every firearm manufacturer while we are at it.

[Kevin Kline]

sslav,

Agreed, if you're going to do that for every pull, then let the SS guns play. Otherwise, everyone shooting a Glock, XD or striker fired gun can switch to a DA/SA gun, since that is what they are complaining about anyway. If there is a 3lb min pull, measure the first shot and if they dont like it, just switch or stop complaining.

If you're going to measure second shot and beyond, then allow SS in the game. Remember guys shooting Glock, XD or striker fired guns, you picked them, you can switch.

[Rising Sight]

That would be perfect. I'm sure STI produces enough Edges for that to become a Production legal gun too.