3 Lb Trigger For Production?

[midvalleyshooter]

Merry Christmas all:)

I was talking to a friend and he said USPSA has a new rule requiring production class to have a 3 lb trigger. Is this true?

MVS

Edited December 24, 2006 by midvalleyshooter

[ihatepickles]

False.

[Gary Stevens]

False for 2007. Unfortunately, true in Production "Division" for 2008.

Gary

Edited December 24, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[ysued]

False for 2007. Unfortunately, true in Production "Division" for 2008.

Gary

Is this now Cast in Stone and one of the 15...... (CRASH).... 10 Commandments of USPSA??

or is there a chance that the BOD might reconsider??

When is the Privivional 2008 Rule Book going to be published for us the Mere Mortals to look at??

Feliz Navidad Gary

Y

[Wideload]

This will be an interesting topic to watch...

Whenever trigger weight was brought up in the past as a discrete and measurable standard for the Production Division, the question was raised about "how in the heck are you going to enforce it?

Will there be a "gold standard" scale to which all other scales will be measured? Will there also be a SOP for operating that scale to control the variability of the measuring apparati and it's operator? I suspect this won't be quite as easy as the mag gauge for open guns.

[Loves2Shoot]

Not a good thing for production. Measuring it is going to be a nightmare for match staff.

[tpcdvc]

Gary,

What were the reasons given to support this new rule?

[Gary Stevens]

1. I think it is set in stone, but who knows?

2. The new rule book should be up in a few days.

3. As to the reason for it, I don't know. I honestly don't understand this. I suggest you ask that question to those who voted for it, perhaps you can do better with this can I have.

Merry Christmas to all.

Gary

[Kevin Kline]

For guys w/ a DA/SA, is it going to be just for the DA pull or all of them? How is that going to work. Will be nice to see how they will enforce that.

[Gary Stevens]

The motion on the USPSA webpage reads from the "hammer down, fully decocked position".

Gary

[Vlad]

There are many reasons to argue pro and con on this (I happen to be pro minium pull) but the "how do you enforce it" questions is not one of them. IPSC, Bullseye, and other disciplines have been doing this for some time. You can't even argue that some guns are harder then others, I'm sure that pleanty of Glocks get measured at every world shoot.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I wish them great luck enforcing those little rules.. I am not nessicarily for a weight restriciton, but i am for equality. we need to somehow not have shooter A and B competing against each other when shooter A has a 1.5# pull from smith of the week and Shooter B having a bone stock gun of the same configuration. That's what production is about PRODUCTION guns.

a "gold standard" as it was put scale and method of use is the only way i see of enforcing it. I'm sure USPSA is welcome to suggestions. Thanks for all you have done gary.

[Jasonub]

for ipsc. on major matches during chrono. once a production gun seems to have a less than a 5 pound pull. the chronoman flicks out the trigger pull guage.

If its less than 5 pounds he will be the first one to welcome you to open division.

Dont have an idea on USPSA though

[BBunin]

Just out of curoisity?

How many of you "Pro- minimum" shooters are shooting Production?

[Vlad]

Just out of curoisity?

How many of you "Pro- minimum" shooters are shooting Production?

Hmm .. I do?

I don't express my opinion on the rules for divisions I don't shoot.

[ysued]

I'm against it not because if the Weight, but because of enforcement!!

It's going to Suck!!

Y

And I have been shooting Production exclusively for 2 full seasons now!!

Just out of curoisity?

How many of you "Pro- minimum" shooters are shooting Production?

Edited December 25, 2006 by ysued

[Jim Norman]

Great. Anyone remember how PO'd all the guys were that spent a bundle on a 7 or 8 round revo? I am one of many that spent a buck and a half on a really sweet trigger job on my XD. Now I have to go and likely do it all over again.

Just what problem did we solve here? No real problem, perhaps a preceived problem. Shooter A with a 1.5# vs new shooter B with a stock Glock at 5#. It isn't the trigger! Its the shooter! WHo here really thinks that they can beat TGO, Dave, Angus, Todd or any of the other top guns regardless of the equipment? Give Dave a Stock GLock and get the most worked gun you can find, likely he will trash you. I shoot with a guy that puts it this way "I can beat you wiith a musket" well I think that applies here. Any of the aforementioned could beat most any of us on our best day regardless of the equipment.

Why can't we write rules to solve real problems??

Jim

[ihatepickles]

No biggie, I can pick up a 50 pound weight with the center of my Glock trigger. Now insert an RO that improvises the (IPSC) technique published for weighing the trigger and it'll break at 2 pounds.

How unsolvable is this argument? Pretty much infinitely unsolvable. My plan is to wait for the provisional rules to be published and send letters to the area directors. We'll see if the USPSA measuring technique differs from the IPSC rules.

[Vlad]

Well Jim, what defines a production gun? It seems to me that one of the defining characteristics of a Production division gun the No Single Action Only one. Can we honestly say that an XD with a 1.5lb trigger is not a SAO? I mean the XD is really kinda of SAO in action from the factory but I'll argue that it default trigger pull puts it in the DAO category.

We all know that most gunsmiths frown upon carry 1911's with trigger pulls bellow 4lb (rightly or wrongly). We know what a prosecutor would say if you defended yourself with a "hair trigger" gun. My 1911 has a 3.5 lb trigger. Most factory 1911's are around 5 or 6 lbs. What about a XD with a 1.5lb trigger is still production?

If people want to argue that we should redefine what production means by defining it as ANY action type with a limited number of mods, 10rd limit, minor, holster rules, and categories for action types, I'm all for that discussion. Given the current wording of the production rules and its core of no SAO guns, I see a minium trigger pull has a requirement for not making the division a L10 minor with holster rules. Frankly I would have prefered a 4.5lb to 5lb limit for the first shot OR a 3 to 3.5lb limit for EVERY shot, but I'll take the 3lb.

[ima45dv8]

We know what a prosecutor would say if you defended yourself with a "hair trigger" gun.

Can you please cite a specific case reference where this has occured?

**Saying 'Massage Aboob Has Said So' bears no weight in this instance. Need an actual case law reference.

Mimimum trigger pull weights are already addressed under 10.3.1, 10.4.1, 10.4.2, 10.4.3, 10.4.4, 10.4.5 and 10.4.6. If the trigger is too light for a shooter to handle safely, he'll be gone in short order.

[sslav]

Well Jim, what defines a production gun?

That is a good question. Sorry, this rule makes no sense. In my professional life (that has nothing to do with shooting) if you spot a problem, you identify the root cause and then you address the root cause. If you are messing with tangential things instead of adressing the root cause that means one of two things - 1. You do not know what the root cause of the problem is. In which case you don't mess with it until you do. Or - 2. You do know what the root cause is but are either afraid to address it or not allowed to address it.

If XD (or Glock or whatever) is not DA enough from production division then these firearms should be removed from the procuction division. In the future new firerams should be better scrutinized mechanically before they are allowed into production division. That is addressing the issue. If on the other hand you are afraid of pissing off manufacturerers and members who bought the guns, then back off, and let it be - like milling of slides for BO-Mars.

Tangential means are rarely if ever effective in achieving a desired result. And they almost never are free of undesired sideeffects.

[Vlad]

We know what a prosecutor would say if you defended yourself with a "hair trigger" gun.

Can you please cite a specific case reference where this has occured?

**Saying 'Massage Aboob Has Said So' bears no weight in this instance. Need an actual case law reference.

Let me put it you this way, Jim and I live in New Jersey, if we defend ourselves with a gun from a rabid nazi with a nuclear bomb on his back, while he is eating babies, we are getting prosecuted. Maybe this doesn't apply to everyone everywhere but the concept of a hair trigger is well engrained in popular culture, for better or worse. Why do you think Springfield isn't selling an XD with 1.5lb spring? Fear of lawsuits perhaps? Not really the topic though. See below.

Mimimum trigger pull weights are already addressed under 10.3.1, 10.4.1, 10.4.2, 10.4.3, 10.4.4, 10.4.5 and 10.4.6. If the trigger is too light for a shooter to handle safely, he'll be gone in short order.

What does safe handling have to do with it? Which part of production confuses people? What is your definition of production? I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to lighten up your trigger or clean it up or adjust it for the defining quality of a Production Division gun is not SAO. I ask again, can you honestly tell me that a XD with 1.5lb trigger can be considered anything but a SAO? There are 4 other semi-auto divisions which don't give a flying monkey what you trigger weight is or what action type your gun has.

[Vlad]

If XD (or Glock or whatever) is not DA enough from production division then these firearms should be removed from the procuction division.

In some ways this problem was introduced by the striker fired guns like the Glock. This is where the DA vs SA distinction got a bit strange. The Glock, XD, P99, etc, are really neither. However it was decided that these guns are more like DAO guns then they are like SAO guns. I don't think that it was a bad thing. However, the striker fired guns can be modifed to reduce a factory 5lb trigger to as low as 1lb. At that point you just threw out the DAO requirement. Does that mean we should throw all striker fire guns into limited? I don't think so. Most people don't modify their guns that far, plus there are also other differences such as holsters, capacity, and powerfactor.

So whats the problem you ask? IPSC and USPSA always worry about equipment races and welcoming new shooters. If striker fired guns with 1.5lb are considered superior then the perception will be that DA guns can't compete in production and again have no home. The production division was supposed to be their home. This is a further complication specific to USPSA. Under IPSC rules internal modifications are limited (in theory) to only minor details. In USPSA you can remove, replace, and until recently change the geometry of parts to the point that the action is no longer that of the original firearm. You can use parts made by different manufacturers that have nothing to so with the original design. I argue that this strage the definition of production.

Yes there are people who can beat me a old Colt Navy no matter what trigger weight I shoot, but at equal skill levels trigger can and does make a difference. We keep telling people that they only compete against themselves or people in their class, but then we tell them that it doesn't matter what trigger or gun they use, its the shooter not the gun. Thats kinda false. At the same skill level the gun does matter. Sevigny is not shooting a Hi-Point. Leathem is not shooting a Raven. Give one a well tuned glock and the other a rusted Makarov and I'll place large bets on the one with the Glock.

The "trigger weight doesn't matter so we should't care" argument is a red herring. Trigger weight clearly matters or people wouldn't try to lighten up their triggers and get upset when we start talking about limits.

[ima45dv8]

Let me put it you this way, Jim and I live in New Jersey, if we defend ourselves with a gun from a rabid nazi with a nuclear bomb on his back, while he is eating babies, we are getting prosecuted. Maybe this doesn't apply to everyone everywhere but the concept of a hair trigger is well engrained in popular culture, for better or worse. Why do you think Springfield isn't selling an XD with 1.5lb spring? Fear of lawsuits perhaps? Not really the topic though. See below.

So far all you've managed is Urban Legend. Very colorful Urban Legend, I admit. The part about rabid nazis with a nuclear bomb on their back was very entertaining, but hardly relevant. This hysteria about light triggers is only well ingrained in popular culture because so many magazines have been sold with the boggie-man admonition that a light trigger will get you in trouble in court. So far, I haven't had anyone cite a specific case reference where this has happened. Can you provide one?

What does safe handling have to do with it?

Everthing.

Which part of production confuses people? What is your definition of production? I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to lighten up your trigger or clean it up or adjust it for the defining quality of a Production Division gun is not SAO. I ask again, can you honestly tell me that a XD with 1.5lb trigger can be considered anything but a SAO?

Yes, I can say that a 1.5 lb trigger in Production is legal if the platform, as already defined by USPSA is other than SAO (meaning, Production legal under todays rules).

There are 4 other semi-auto divisions which don't give a flying monkey what you trigger weight is or what action type your gun has.

So what? We're not talking about the other divisions.

[Vlad]

So far all you've managed is Urban Legend. Very colorful Urban Legend, I admit. The part about rabid nazis with a nuclear bomb on their back was very entertaining, but hardly relevant. This hysteria about light triggers is only well ingrained in popular culture because so many magazines have been sold with the boggie-man admonition that a light trigger will get you in trouble in court. So far, I haven't had anyone cite a specific case reference where this has happened. Can you provide one?

We can argue this back and forth all week, and it still doesn't make a damn difference. The point I was attempting to make was related to what do people expect when we use the word "Production". If a case was ever prosecuted based on that argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is perception of what production means to the average Joe and what production means to USPSA. As it stands other sports can claim that USPSA is for racers/gamers only and that you need a race gun to even enter the game. I ask you again, what does the word mean to you?

What does safe handling have to do with it?

Everthing.

Uhh .. Like what? No one seems to argue if a 1.5lb spring is safe or not. The argument about its suitability for PRODUCTION division.

Yes, I can say that a 1.5 lb trigger in Production is legal if the platform, as already defined by USPSA is other than SAO (meaning, Production legal under todays rules).

Ok .. I guess I can claim that white is black if I turn off the light. What is the difference between a SAO with only 1/8" take up and 1.5lb pull and a XD with 1/8" takeup and 1.5lb trigger pull? I think the whole point of the rule change is not what is currently legal under the existing rule book, but the fact that a whole bunch of people think that the current rules are broken by allowing what you describe. Yes it is legal today, hopefully it won't be in the next rule book.

There are 4 other semi-auto divisions which don't give a flying monkey what you trigger weight is or what action type your gun has.

So what? We're not talking about the other divisions.

I guess I was asking why do we need another division for SAO guns.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Vlad