Sp01 Shadow Not Approved For Ipsc Production

[eerw]

Found this posted by Vince over on IPSC GV

"Hi folks,

I just wanted to announce that the CZ75 SP-01 Shadow listing has changed from "under evaluation" to "not approved", because the Shadow variant is deemed to be (and, in fact, is advertised as) a regular SP-01 which has been "specifically modified for Production Division".

Specifically, the Shadow is not simply an SP-01 with some OFM parts added or removed - the Shadow has also undergone enhanced trigger work.

--------------------

DVC,

Vince Pinto,

IPSC Secretary"

and from the IPSC production list

CZ75 SP-01, CZ75 SP-01 Tactical, CZ75 SP-01 Sport (9x21mm version with OFM trigger stop as sold in Italy) ('CZ75 SP-01 Shadow' is not approved)

So how does this effect USPSA's decision on the Shadow..

Edited December 10, 2006 by eerw

[Wakal]

Hmm...so as long as it is marked "SP 01" on the slide and it came directly from CZ (CZ-USA)...then it would be just fine.

As shown by the "CZ85-II" ruling, also by IPSC.

Alex

[RIIID]

For a gun company to get their gun on the List they can't use words in describing a better product even if it is a regular run manufactured gun. Words like custom, enhanced, tuned, made for, ultra, match, etc. can cause big problems on getting onto the list. As for USPSA if it meets our requirements than no problems.

Rich

[Nemo]

IPSC is hard to understand.

[EricBudd]

IPSC is hard to understand.

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense since you can call Angus and get a SP-01 with all the OEM parts that make the gun a Shadow. I hope USPSA does things better with the 2008 rule book.

[rubberneck]

You can't have your cake and eat it to. You can't have a list of permitted modifications and features and then disallow a gun that meets that criteria because it "violates" the spirit of the rules.

I don't see how I can modify an stock SP-01 in exactly the same manner that CZ has done with the shadow and still be legal but if I want to save some money and buy it directly with the work already done I can't. That makes no sense. Those that want the features can buy the Shadow those who don't can run a bone stock SP-01 or have it modified to suit their needs.

Luckily for me I won't ever shoot overseas and I will never be good enough to make the world team otherwise this nonsensical rulings would really bother me.

Edited December 10, 2006 by rubberneck

[Stefano]

Hi to you all !

My name is Stefano, and I am a IPSC Production B-class shooter from Genoa, Italy.

I shoot (better: I WOULD like to shoot) with my Tanfoglio Stock Custom, even if this is no more possible (after 1 year of competitions plus 1 World Shoot ...) because "they" of the PDC decided "ex-post" that this gun is no more OK for the PD.

A fiew weeks ago I've had a long discussion with Vince on GV:

(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4361)

because in my opinion the TSC and the SP-01 are quite the same thing.

Apart from this in my opinion both the TSC and the SP-01 are excellent guns, and I see no reasons to thinking the Shadow version quite different from the "basic" version.

So, I completely disagree with this last decision of the IPSC-PDC about the Shadow.

I can't find a real, objective difference from the "normal" SP-01 and the Shadow version: as said, everione can buy the OFM parts on Angus's website, and transform his SP-01 in the Shadow one.

IMHO

[Singlestack Wonder]

Words like custom, enhanced, tuned, made for, ultra, match, etc. can cause big problems on getting onto the list.

Yes it can. One of the things the rules provide for is a protection that manufacturers will not take the previously approved guns, perform "Custom Tuning", add "Competition Parts", and raise the cost of the gun to a higher magnitude, and still have a legal Production Division pistol. The gun is now no longer an everyday, common production item. It's now a "Factory Enhanced" item that lends itself to another equipment race.

[caps]

Yes it can. One of the things the rules provide for is a protection that manufacturers will not take the previously approved guns, perform "Custom Tuning", add "Competition Parts", and raise the cost of the gun to a higher magnitude, and still have a legal Production Division pistol. The gun is now no longer an everyday, common production item. It's now a "Factory Enhanced" item that lends itself to another equipment race.

No doubt about it. On the CZUSA website the SP01 is listed at $595 and the Shadow is listed at $850. That's a 43% increase is price just for a different hammer and different sights!

@stefano - dude, are you serious? The TSC is a race gun with a double action trigger!

[Chuck Anderson]

Yes it can. One of the things the rules provide for is a protection that manufacturers will not take the previously approved guns, perform "Custom Tuning", add "Competition Parts", and raise the cost of the gun to a higher magnitude, and still have a legal Production Division pistol. The gun is now no longer an everyday, common production item. It's now a "Factory Enhanced" item that lends itself to another equipment race.

No doubt about it. On the CZUSA website the SP01 is listed at $595 and the Shadow is listed at $850. That's a 43% increase is price just for a different hammer and different sights!

@stefano - dude, are you serious? The TSC is a race gun with a double action trigger!

The TSC is nothing more than a heavy dust cover Tanfoglio. The same as the SP-01 is a heavy dustcover CZ. The features found on the TSC, minus the magwell, which Tanfoglio already tried to deal with, are available on lots of other Production legal guns.

The fact that IPSC has decided to not allow the Shadow is ridiculous. The features of the gun are legal on other legal models. I have an SP-01, marked that way on the gun, but it was marked in pencil "Shadow" on the box. Is it a legal gun or not? All the features are legal, just the name is not. How is IPSC going to police this exactly anyway? My gun has everything to make it a Shadow, just not the name.

[Z-man]

Wow, absolutely rediculous. The "Shadow" is just an SP-01 with new sights, and cut down slide stop (internally to allow functioning with heavy bullets), and a trigger job. IPSC's reasoning when dealing with Production is so convoluted that I fear any attempts by our own USPSA to draw closer to it. I think rulings like this explain the fears that many have when the BOD introduces similar ideas here.

Additionally, production is one of the best opportunities for our sport to draw in major manufacturer's participation. Tangfolio and CZ are two of the largest international manufacturers involved... doesn't seem right close the door in their faces. I wonder how long they'll continue sponsoring IPSC events?

Edited December 11, 2006 by Z-man

[XRe]

I am so glad that I shoot Open

This is simply a perfect example of why an "approved" list is inherently bogus - especially when its based on something as subjective as what Mr. Pinto's assessment suggests... "Gee, this one comes from the factory with the trigger work you're going to do with it anyway...." :roll:

I think the direction our BOD is trying to head is a vast improvement over this kind of stuff....

[Jim Norman]

EDIT

Edited December 11, 2006 by Flexmoney

[chuckw]

EDIT

Edited December 11, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Wakal]

IPSC unelected senior staffers have stated (in writing) that "we want to see the gun companies make decent products for our game", and then stated "we can't have gun companies making decent products for our game."

This is not the first time CZ and IPSC has caused inadvertent entertainment. When the PO1 was "illegal", IPSC's Secretary and Associates ruled that a factory custom P01 that was factory marked "CZ85-II" was OK because the CZ85 was OK. Interesting stuff. However, that was CZ and not CZ-USA

I am looking forward to what OUR Board of Directors comes up with; OUR board as in "elected." What a concept; only in America!

Alex

Edited December 11, 2006 by Wakal

[Flexmoney]

We aren't going to have a Vince-fest.

Posting Guidelines

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Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones.

[caps]

IPSC unelected senior staffers have stated (in writing) that "we want to see the gun companies make decent products for our game", and then stated "we can't have gun companies making decent products for our game."

Where did they say "for our game"? Vince made it very clear at the GV that IPSC didn't want guns "made specifically for production division" (our game). Can you show an actual quote to support your claim?

When the PO1 was "illegal", IPSC's Secretary and Associates ruled that a factory custom P01 that was factory marked "CZ85-II" was OK because the CZ85 was OK. Interesting stuff. However, that was CZ and not CZ-USA

When was the P01 made illegal? I've had one since they were first released and they were never illegal in IPSC. Besides, the P01 has always had a polymer frame and CZ85s have always had steel frame. Maybe you should check your facts!

I am looking forward to what OUR Board of Directors comes up with; OUR board as in "elected." What a concept; only in America!

You mean like the 3lb trigger pull? Or how about Vanek trigger job, visible external mod = bad, but milled slide/buried Bomars and changed recoil guide rod, visible external mod = good?

:lol:

Edited December 11, 2006 by caps

[AikiDale]

Hi to you all !

My name is Stefano, and I am a IPSC Production B-class shooter from Genoa, Italy.

I shoot (better: I WOULD like to shoot) with my Tanfoglio Stock Custom, even if this is no more possible (after 1 year of competitions plus 1 World Shoot ...) because "they" of the PDC decided "ex-post" that this gun is no more OK for the PD.

A fiew weeks ago I've had a long discussion with Vince on GV:

(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4361)

because in my opinion the TSC and the SP-01 are quite the same thing.

Apart from this in my opinion both the TSC and the SP-01 are excellent guns, and I see no reasons to thinking the Shadow version quite different from the "basic" version.

So, I completely disagree with this last decision of the IPSC-PDC about the Shadow.

I can't find a real, objective difference from the "normal" SP-01 and the Shadow version: as said, everione can buy the OFM parts on Angus's website, and transform his SP-01 in the Shadow one.

IMHO

Welcome to Brian's Forums Stefano.

Edited December 11, 2006 by AikiDale

[TxD]

When was the P01 made illegal? I've had one since they were first released and they were never illegal in IPSC. Besides, the P01 has always had a polymer frame and CZ85s have always had steel frame. Maybe you should check your facts!

Didn't know the P01 had a polymer frame.

Guess we better check our facts.

[Ramas]

Its clearly said no guns in PD with trigger jobs in IPSC.

Acctualy i don't care, because i'm shooting with Glock 17 and it's out of box without any trigger jobs, so i want same rules for everyone. I think its fair.

[Jim Norman]

...made it very clear at the GV that IPSC didn't want guns "made specifically for production division" (our game).

OK, We, IPSC, have a rule relating to what is legal for a gun to be used in Production to have. A company builds said gun and is told that because the y built a gun that was designed to meet the rules, that it would not be allowed. Anyone here thinking George Orwell or Catch-22 here?

What would be better, build a gun for $500 that ALMOST works, then charge an additional $400 for the allowed mods, or build a gun for $500 that includes all the mods that people are doing anyway? The end result of the two being an identical gun that no one can tell apart with out reference to the receipts!

Makes perfect sense to me.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

I hope our USPSA BoD can avoid similar self-contradictory sand traps. I cringe to think of the investment a gun company would have to absorb to produce a firearm to meet the rules of a division and then be told that because it was designed to meet those requirements, they could not be approved to play in that arena. If CZ decides to no longer sponsor matches or stages in IPSC, it would be very easy for me to understand their position.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'll save Flex the trouble and just say, "SELF EDITED" as my opinion of the ruling.

[Stefano]

Its clearly said no guns in PD with trigger jobs in IPSC.

Acctualy i don't care, because i'm shooting with Glock 17 and it's out of box without any trigger jobs, so i want same rules for everyone. I think its fair.

Sorry, I don't see any citation about "triggerjobs" (permitted or not permitted) on appendix D4 of the "Handgun Competition Rules" book, 2006 edition

www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf)

By the way, I don't know ONE PD shooters who didn't tried to improve the tiggerpull on his gaun ...

Hi to you all !

My name is Stefano, and I am a IPSC Production B-class shooter from Genoa, Italy.

I shoot (better: I WOULD like to shoot) with my Tanfoglio Stock Custom, even if this is no more possible (after 1 year of competitions plus 1 World Shoot ...) because "they" of the PDC decided "ex-post" that this gun is no more OK for the PD.

A fiew weeks ago I've had a long discussion with Vince on GV:

(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4361)

because in my opinion the TSC and the SP-01 are quite the same thing.

Apart from this in my opinion both the TSC and the SP-01 are excellent guns, and I see no reasons to thinking the Shadow version quite different from the "basic" version.

So, I completely disagree with this last decision of the IPSC-PDC about the Shadow.

I can't find a real, objective difference from the "normal" SP-01 and the Shadow version: as said, everione can buy the OFM parts on Angus's website, and transform his SP-01 in the Shadow one.

IMHO

Welcome to Brian's Forums Stefano.

Thank you Dale !

[Middle Man]

By the way, I don't know ONE PD shooters who didn't tried to improve the tiggerpull on his gaun ...

Right on, is there a competitive shooter alive that hasn't tinkered with something related to trigger pull?

A dollop of Colgate toothpaste (hey it's cheaper than fancy polishing compounds) on the trigger parts whist dryfiring will smooth out the surfaces in short order. You will have a slight mess to clean up though...

[rubberneck]

No doubt about it. On the CZUSA website the SP01 is listed at $595 and the Shadow is listed at $850. That's a 43% increase is price just for a different hammer and different sights!

What does price have to do with it? At $850 it still wouldn't come close to being the most expensive gun in production. What's the difference between buying the Shadow and paying $850 or buying the SP-01 and paying $595 for the gun, $125 for an action job (which Angus performs on the Shadow before it is shipped out), $65 for new grips and $100 for new sights and a competition hammer and still having an IPSC legal gun?

I guess it bothers me that IPSC is saying no to guns with added features that many people want anyways and can legally add themselves. If you just want a stock SP-01 than have at it. I like the fact that I can call CZ and order the shadow and when the gun gets to me I have a gun with all the mods I like right out of the box.