SSD, shoot it or L10?

[Wideload]

I normally shoot Production or Revolver but, I've shot couple club level matches with a Limited-8 gun. It's another puzzle -- breaking down the stage into engagements of 8 rounds per string with an option of using the 9th round and running the gun dry. I'll even say that it's a lot of fun!

However, I don't see a point in shooting Single Stack until we start using the classifiers that have been shot as Single Stack. We won't see the true numbers for Single Stack shooters because new shooters are more often than not encouraged to shoot L-10 to get a working classification. Likewise, many established shooters don't seem interested in shooting classifiers that may never get counted. What will it take to get Single Stack moved from a Provisional to an officially recognized division?

[Jim Norman]

So, shoot L10 with a SS. I admit, i don't get it. We already have a division that Single Stack works well in. It is Limited-10. I shot a Single Stack back when Limited was only a catagory. I classified with a my single stacker. I use a 170mm 10 round mag as opposed to an 8.

I can't fit my gun into the SS division as it currently stands. Right now, I shoot Limited and L-10 with a Para. Production and L-10 with my XD, shooting minor and also occasionally a Glock or Sig.

I just don't get it. Why do we need a pattern specific division? Just what was wrong with what we have?

Leave L-10 alone!

Jim

[JakeMartens]

So, shoot L10 with a SS. I admit, i don't get it. We already have a division that Single Stack works well in. It is Limited-10. I shot a Single Stack back when Limited was only a catagory. I classified with a my single stacker. I use a 170mm 10 round mag as opposed to an 8.

I can't fit my gun into the SS division as it currently stands. Right now, I shoot Limited and L-10 with a Para. Production and L-10 with my XD, shooting minor and also occasionally a Glock or Sig.

I just don't get it. Why do we need a pattern specific division? Just what was wrong with what we have?

Leave L-10 alone!

Jim

Then shoot Limited 10, and don't worry about what the rest of us are doing.

[Jim Norman]

Alan,

I don't care if we add a 6th division. People want a 1911 platform divisoin that allows virtually no mods, fine by me. Just leave L-10 alone.

My real concern is that if we allow SS as a division when there is a perfectly viable palce to shoot them already, do we next add SA Revolver? or Sig 229 or G-26/27? What about my broomhandle Mauser? What division should I shoot that in?

I think that if we are going to add a division, we should have a truly good reason. If we are going to delete a divison, we should have a much better reason.

There is room in USPSA to grow. We can have more. We need to step very carefuly, lest we step upon toes and have people leave USPSA.

Jim

[JakeMartens]

This thread was not about eliminating Limited 10, but about who is shooting single stack.

I do not think that Limited 10 should be eliminated, I think it should be left alone.

I shot Limited 10 exclusively with a single stack, but now that Single Stack is here (to stay I hope) I would rather shot it than Limited 10.

[Merlin Orr]

10 rnd mags for a single stack are ugly. They destroy the clean flowing lines of the beautiful 1911 design. I think I will shoot SS for this reason alone.

[uscbigdawg]

Singlestack, to me, belongs as a category within Production. Concealment gear and mags that do not protrude below the base of the gun so the IDPA guys have zero difficulty with gear transition.

Now the question of PF comes up with an 8 round SA vs. a 10 round major/minor gun. Without crunching numbers, my initial opinion is to grant major scoring SS category. This does a couple of things. Gives the traditionalists that want to shoot 45 a points gain to theoretically level out the field against the 10-round minor guns.

So then the next argument arises with someone building a SS-40. Yep, they get scored major, unless we make a minimum bullet diameter of .451. Not unheard of as we've done it before, but a little hokey. Not knowing the gear out there for SS-40's (as well as I should since I'm building one ), but my guess is that there are 9 round mags, but not 10. This personally doesn't bug me a whole lot and thus the original plan of allowing major scoring for SS holds.

I see IDPA as a great resource for us to tap from. Production is that conduit. If we can get them to spend as little up front money as possible, they will come on over. Production guns, for the most part, can run in SSP or ESP. The CDP guys would be nice to have come over as there are a lot of them that can flat out shoot. And the more 1911's the better.

SS should not be its own division. It's over-classifing a particular platform. As stated, single stacks have a home in L-10. The issue (for me) is that one would (have to...at your option) upgrade their holster and mag pouches. Not a big deal for some, a huge deal for others and that is valid.

As for the original posters dilemma, I say shoot your 8's in L-10 and have fun. I did with my 560 concealment holster and my SA-1911. I love that gun and shoot it every time I shoot L-10.

Rich

[nmipsc]

L-10 Would e great if it was for the S_I running loaded down 10 round fat mags. Average Guy Just Can not reload as fast with a single stack 10 as a wide body. Average of three Reloads per Stage can make the DIfference Over the COurse of 10-12 stages. Get the Race guns out of L-10 and it is a great divison. just MHO

[zhunter]

So, shoot L10 with a SS. I admit, i don't get it. We already have a division that Single Stack works well in. It is Limited-10. I shot a Single Stack back when Limited was only a catagory. I classified with a my single stacker. I use a 170mm 10 round mag as opposed to an 8.

I can't fit my gun into the SS division as it currently stands. Right now, I shoot Limited and L-10 with a Para. Production and L-10 with my XD, shooting minor and also occasionally a Glock or Sig.

I just don't get it. Why do we need a pattern specific division? Just what was wrong with what we have?

Leave L-10 alone!

Jim

Jim, I love ya, but....

L-10 is here to stay, it is going to be at least thru 2008. Please stop beating the proverbial dead horse. Some of us would like to shoot Single Stack in a recognized manner, NOT Provisional. Jim, no one is going to take your beloved L-10 away, at least not until 2009.

Relax and enjoy the Turkey and Football

[RickB]

I shoot a match, either IDPA or USPSA, or both, almost every weekend. If I could choose just one kind of match, it would be single stack; USPSA courses of fire, tailored to 8+1 capacity, and "carry" gear. But, having shot a few "nine rounds from one view" USPSA matches with SSD-legal gear, I have to say I don't like it.

Why I like the (provisional) SS division, is that it promises to provide for consistent rules at all single stack 1911-only matches, wherever they are. I've shot SS matches in WA, OR, and AZ, and they all use different rules, sometimes differing even within a given match from year to year. It would be great to go to the Single Stack Classic, or the Western States Single Stack Championship (or the now-defunct Washington State Straight Eight Championship ), and find the same rules in effect.

I've heard that SSD is supposed to encourage IDPA shooters to cross over, among other reasons, but I shoot both games precisely because they are different. I can use carry gear and 8-round mags in IDPA, and switch to race gear and 10-rounders for USPSA. While having similar equipment rules might encourage people to kick USPSA's tires, I think people want to "race" when they shoot USPSA, and that's hard, when you have only nine rounds in the gun.

I agree that L10 is already a single stack division, and I absolutely don't buy the theory that faster reloads make single stacks uncompetitive there. You are supposed to be reloading at times other than when you are shooting, so you can't just add the fraction of a second in difference, and conclude that the hi-caps have an advantage. If you have two or three steps, you have time to reload with no penalty. It comes into play in stand-and-shoot situations, where movement is not required, but again, it's not a big deal. I never even consider it, when I'm sizing up the competition; "Oh, no, that guy has a hi-cap, and there are three reloads on this stage, so he'll beat me by 1.5 seconds!" I'll just have to have a better plan, economize on movement, and shoot straighter. That's always a winning combination. When the Area 1 championship was last held in my neighborhood, Rob Leatham won L10 with a single stack .45, and he very nearly won the match overall. That is, he beat most of the Limited and Open shooters, too.

So, I'll be shooting my single stack in L10 as long as there is an L10. If L10 goes away, I doubt that I'll shoot SSD, except at SS-only matches.

[Nik Habicht]

So then the next argument arises with someone building a SS-40. Yep, they get scored major, unless we make a minimum bullet diameter of .451. Not unheard of as we've done it before, but a little hokey. Not knowing the gear out there for SS-40's (as well as I should since I'm building one ), but my guess is that there are 9 round mags, but not 10. This personally doesn't bug me a whole lot and thus the original plan of allowing major scoring for SS holds.

Rich

The current PSSD rules already provide for major with a .40 ---- you're capacity restricted to 8 rounds, same as a .45. For minor, you get to load 10......

[ipscbob]

L-10 Would e great if it was for the S_I running loaded down 10 round fat mags. Average Guy Just Can not reload as fast with a single stack 10 as a wide body. Average of three Reloads per Stage can make the DIfference Over the COurse of 10-12 stages. Get the Race guns out of L-10 and it is a great divison. just MHO

Well, the "average guy" with an S_I doublewide gun downloaded to 10 rounds can't reload as fast as someone who practices alot with a single stack either. Get over it. Practice more and learn to play the game at your own level. There are NO cheap roads to success and SSD is no exception.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ipscbob

[Wideload]

The intention of my original posting is to state that by going to a 8+1 round gun instead of a 10+1 changes how you shoot a stage. (Much like one's strategy changes with a revo) Yes in SSD you can shoot up to a 10+1 mags of minor PF ammo but the dynamics changes there as well.

I also wanted to share my observation that you can't draw enough people to shoot a division that is not fully recognized with its own classification. Either fully recognize SSD or drop it into a category of L10 and call it done. This half way provisional thing just isn't working for me.

It had nothing to do with keeping or dumping L-10. There are several very good reasons to keep L-10 alive.

[omnia1911]

I shoot a match, either IDPA or USPSA, or both, almost every weekend. If I could choose just one kind of match, it would be single stack; USPSA courses of fire, tailored to 8+1 capacity, and "carry" gear. But, having shot a few "nine rounds from one view" USPSA matches with SSD-legal gear, I have to say I don't like it.

I hope the USPSA BOD is looking into going back to 8 rounds from a shooting position in the new rulebook....espcially if they want to help SSD get on its feet. The matches ran just fine at 8 rounds. There was no need to go to 9.

[Jim Norman]

Actually since we have 5-6 divisons and we don't shoot heads up, what difference does it make how many shots area available for a given position? Can i slow down and aim faster than I can run up and hose is really the question here. Revo shooters only get 6 shots. What next? a demand that we limit the shots to 5 from one position? So what if a SS has to do a standing reload? everyone in your divisoin does as well. You aren't competing against L-10 or Limited or Productino or Open. Isn't that what everyone wanted? Boo-hoo, my 8+1 SS isn't competative against those nasty people in L-10. Well, you aren't competing against them now, so what difference does a standing reload make to you?

OK, Sorry for the mini-rant, but I needed it.

Jim

[Gary Stevens]

Eight rounds from a positon will be back.

Gary

[Jim Norman]

WHY? It is not needed.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Yes it is.

Thanks Gary.

(Gary, while you are at it, I hope that the silly 'elimated a final view' wording was yanked out of there too?)

[Gary Stevens]

I think, if I remember correctly, it is something like "not allow a shooter to shoot all the targets from a single position", or words to that effect.

Gary

[Matt Cheely]

Eight rounds from a positon will be back.

NO!!!

I had this great plan to kick everyone's butt in SSD with a 9mm and 10 rounds.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Matt Cheely

[Gary Stevens]

Just miss more Matt.

[omnia1911]

Great!!!

Thanks Gary.

What wasn't needed was going from 8 to 9, not the other way around.

[ima45dv8]

Eight rounds from a positon will be back.

Gary

Glad to hear that.

[Jim Norman]

Why not 6 rounds? afterall we don't want to annoy the rev guys.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Why not 6 rounds? afterall we don't want to annoy the rev guys.

Jim

Sure we do --- after all they're outnumbered, and most of 'em take forever to reload......

Seriously --- I see very little difference between 8 & 9 rounds allowed in a position. Good stages aren't designed in multiples of 8, or 6, or........