Smm3g 2007

[Religious Shooter]

Match was good. Will go again. The match this year seemed to run smoother.

But I think last year's match had better stages overall.

This year I wasn't really digging the gagle of 12 round shotgun stages. A major match IMO should have at least one stage where you have 24+ minimum shotgun shell stage.

Fairly common in the local matches where I live to have 18+ shell stages. To drive 6+ hours and then to have the majority of the stages that have shotgun have 12 minimum was a bit of a let-down.

Also disliked that there were only two rifle stages this year that had long distance targets vs. the three stages during the 2006 match.

Thanks to all the staff that put and ran this match. Good times.

[jhgtyre]

Final scores are posted on the match website.

-ld

[Chuck Anderson]

This was the fastest running Rio Salado Match I can remember being to. We actually got done, had dinner and watched the movie "Shooter", and it was still light outside. I remember being at the range till it was dark. And also, all the stages made it into the match. Normally they pick my best stage and throw it out. They say it's only because that stage is normally LR rifle and it's running behind, but I know, they're really all against me.

Overall, match ran great. Stages could stand to be a bit longer. If you're going to use IMGA scoring is 100 points per stage, please get rid of the under 20 second speed shoots. It makes those stages worth way too much. And I liked Taran's idea of separating out the irons. There's a big enough table to split it up and it makes it less of a contest of who shows up to shoot irons.

[Truegent2004]

Sorry I missed it. Maybe next year I can plan better. Any word on next year's dates?

[outerlimits]

alright, who's got video of the coaster stage shooting the rifle?? c'mon, guyz!

[kellyn]

It was a good match. Congrats to the winners especially Don Bednorz and his win in Open!

Pros:

The management of the match was smooth and nearly flawless.

We finished on time.

The stages by and large were fun.

Awesome prize table (as always )

Cons:

Some of the rules have got to go.

Taran is right on. The splitting of divisions (Heavy Metal pump v. auto, Tac Iron v. scope) must end. Since there was so much shotgun shooting, the Heavy Metal shooters only shot 3 of 11 stages heads up! Since there was so much rifle, Taran (Tac scope 1st place) and Kurt (Tac iron 1st place) only shot against each other in 4 of the 11 stages! This is not how to score a major tournament. My solution? Make Tac iron a seperate division (my preference) or get rid of it. As for Heavy Metal, if you want to shoot it, buy a pump shotgun. Heavy Metal auto needs to be jettisoned.

Rule 7.2.5 which requires that pistol mag pouches and holsters must be behind the point of the hip in tactical and Heavy Metal Division IS COMPLETELY STUPID. This is a 3 gun match where shooters are wearing arm bands, thigh rigs, chest rigs, vests, etc etc. etc. This rule has no rationale whatsoever in 3 gun.

Just my thoughts. Thanks guys for a good match! At least it did not snow!

[StealthyBlagga]

I shot and RO'd the match.

As a shooter, I also would have liked to see at least one longer shotgun stage - my fast fingers didn't get the work out I had hoped . Also, most of the stages did not have much scope for shooting smarter... they were pretty much straight forward "shoot fast, don't miss" stages, which I personally find less interesting. I thought there was a respectable amount of long-range rifle. Personally, I can shoot pistol almost every weekend day of the year, so I don't care that it is limited in a match like this.

As an RO, I liked that the stages were not too ambitious. I worked Stage 1 ("Cheatin' the Hangman"); on Thursday, after the RO match, I can tell you we were pretty concerned about the stage running slow. As it turned out, thanks to the willingness of the shooters to help reset, and the method we used for preparing shooters, we managed to run every squad on schedule.

As for the future match format, I happen to prefer 3-gun over multi-gun - I don't particularly care for the transitions, and several DQs were a direct result of having multiple guns on the same stage (mostly dropped second guns or guns set down off-safe). IMHO, the usefulness of transitions is over emphasized.

[ArturoJ]

I agree with Kelly and Stealthy.

As long as shotgun stages remain shooting not loading tests it's ok with me. If you want to test the fast fingers, an empty shotgun start would do that. I would rip the rest of my thumb skin off with that kind of start. Not wanting, just saying.

[ERIC]

I have to agree with Taran and Kelly. Hopefully, they'll listen to the advice of some of the top shooters.

I thought the stages didn't make you think enough but they were fun. Stage 3 and 8 were the only one I thought where you really need to figure out a game plan. Unfortunately on 3 you couldn't do a test run on the roller coaster to make sure your plan will work. Stage 8 was the only one where the ROs didn't let you walk the stage except for the 5 minutes prior to your squad shooting. They actually kicked people off the stage even if there was no squad shooting it.

I hope someone comes up with a device that can throw clays consistently after it's activated by the popper. On stage 4, I missed a clay because one of the doubles flew low and towards me. For almost everyone else in our squad, it went straight up and pretty high. There is too much variation of the trajectory just from the placement of the clay on square pad.

I wish there were more shotgun rounds per stage. I like multi gun stages and would like to see more of them. I think those are the funnest stages.

The roller coaster wasn't as hard as I thought it would be and was a lot of fun. I got a little worried when I saw a lot of guys getting multiple FTN and FTE.

[SinistralRifleman]

This is the first time I can remember that the match finished on time AND no stages were thrown out.

I wish the stages were higher round count. I'd like to shoot at least 100 rounds of each gun if I'm bringing them out

Our gallery is here:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/SMM3G/2007/SMM3G-2007-1.html

Edited April 3, 2007 by SinistralRifleman

[BigDave]

Did Burkett not shoot?

[XRe]

Did Burkett not shoot?

No.

[BD Williamson]

Anybody know why Matt Burkett didnt shoot the match???

[scottmilk9]

he was bowling.

[D.Hayden]

Rule 7.2.5 which requires that pistol mag pouches and holsters must be behind the point of the hip in tactical and Heavy Metal Division IS COMPLETELY STUPID. This is a 3 gun match where shooters are wearing arm bands, thigh rigs, chest rigs, vests, etc etc. etc. This rule has no rationale whatsoever in 3 gun.

Seconded!

For equipment rules.. why not just follow the USPSA rules?

For the Division splits.. Seems like there just has to be a minimum number of competitors to justify splitting them up. There's definelty a better case for 'Tactical Irons', as opposed to Heavy auto/manual.

There seemed to be too many DQs.. The match staff should review why, and see if the stages were that bad or whatever... just my 1.5 cents.

I liked the shorter shotgun stages, each became more of a shooting stage then a reloading stage.

We shall never speak of Stage 3 again.

Background:

On one stage, Stage 8.. the stage oral briefing containing verbage like:

"If on start you pick up the rifle, disengage the saftey, set it back down, without placing the safety back on, and draw your pistol that's a DQ".

Question: Why would this be a DQ? You're still within the 1 meter. Is there some multigun rule about having 2 hot guns at once?

[StealthyBlagga]

For equipment rules.. why not just follow the USPSA rules?

USPSA rules are a bit of a mess... the whole scoring thing is a clunky workaround IMHO. If/when they fix EZWinScore, then I might reconsider.

There seemed to be too many DQs.. The match staff should review why, and see if the stages were that bad or whatever... just my 1.5 cents.

As I mentioend above, many of the DQs were a direct result of the people pushing just a tad too hard in the multi-gun format - people putting guns down that were not properly safed or (as in Jerry's case) a dropped second gun. If the stages were single-gun only, the DQ rate would have been MUCH lower.

"If on start you pick up the rifle, disengage the saftey, set it back down, without placing the safety back on, and draw your pistol that's a DQ".

Question: Why would this be a DQ? You're still within the 1 meter. Is there some multigun rule about having 2 hot guns at once?

The SMM3G was not run under USPSA rules. Why would an off-safe gun be safer if you put it down within 1M than if you put it down and walk 2M away ?

[George]

At the local multi-gun matches I run, hot abandonment is always done into barrels that point in such a way that no one can go in front of it as they continue the stage and if the gun goes off, it goes into a backstop of some sort. If the safety is not on, it is only a single procedural, not a DQ because the nuzzle is controlled. Way better way to handle this IMHO.

As far as USPSA rules being too complicated, I think it was mis-understood. Berkim only advocated using USPSA equipment and basic safety rules so folks can go to different matches with a basic, singular set of gear and not have to sort out gear stuff for every different match. Using USPSA scoring and other target/points oriented areas of the rulebook was not what was proffered.

This is a smart approach IMO as IMG rules for safety and equipment were all pulled from the USPSA/IPSC rules and modified to be as they are anyway. Why not go back to the source and at least standardize the gear here?

[BigDave]

he was bowling.

Bowling does rule (hell, I bowled 3 games this morning!) , but it still isn't ahead of 3gun in my book.

[XRe]

Without getting into cats and their residence in bags.... let's say that Matt was taking care of some (good) things that are more important to him, right now

[SinistralRifleman]

This is the second time I've been on the squad with someone at SMM3G that was simply pulling a match trigger fast, and was accused of full-auto fire. In both cases the triggers were mechanically sound, all the rounds went into the shooters intended targets, there was no danger.

The first time this happenned in 2005, the shooter received a Stage DQ from the RO after he was told to stop.

This year, our RO didn't seem to have a problem, but a group of other shooters following us around whined and complained to such a degree that the MD told the shooter if it happenned again he would be DQ'ed. The shooter removed the match trigger from his gun and used a standard GI trigger for the rest of the match so as not to risk being DQ'ed. The match trigger was inspected by JP and he found nothing to be wrong with it.

In cases like this if the RO fears a run away gun, the shooter should be ordered to stop until the gun can be inspected by the gunsmith on the range to insure that the hammer is not simply following as the bolt closes and there is no mechanical issue. If it is determined the shooter's gun is mechanically sound, they should be granted a re-shoot.

Otherwise...don't take a match trigger here, you risk being DQ'ed for "shooting too fast"

As for the people following us around on thursday looking for things to complain about, well people like that make me not want to bother coming.

Edited April 3, 2007 by SinistralRifleman

[StealthyBlagga]

This is a smart approach IMO as IMG rules for safety and equipment were all pulled from the USPSA/IPSC rules and modified to be as they are anyway. Why not go back to the source and at least standardize the gear here?

Yes, I would agree that this is a good idea. IPSC rules are great at defining equipment, and also create a clear administrative framework (arbitration procedures, course design, safety practices etc.) that is lacking in IMGA. I really would like the rules of 3-gun to become standardized.

The scoring thing is the one aspect of IPSC that really turns me off. The IMGA "neutralization" approach is SO much easier to administer for the ROs and stats people - just look for good hits and any targets "not neutralized". This scoring system means that stages can be more ambitious without the risk of running out of time and getting pulled. I personally also like the way that all stages - big and small - have equal weight.

Edited April 3, 2007 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

Otherwise...don't take a match trigger here, you risk being DQ'ed for "shooting too fast"

This is a question of educating the ROs. As someone with a nice JP trigger, I know that, just occasionally, I may get a double because the gun bump fires on me, even though the trigger itself is 100% OK. As such, I am prepared to tolerate a double from shooters I'm ROing, provided it does not happen so frequently that I suspect an unsafe condition. If the bursts exceed two rounds or happen several times in a stage, then I may take it further. Likewise, if a shot goes over the burm, the shooter is in trouble.

To accuse a shooter of deliberately "cheating" by installing an auto sear is just assinine. That said, I see nothing in IMGA rules that prohibit full-auto firearms, and certainly they are allowed at Rio (except on Sunday) .

[TMC]

alright, who's got video of the coaster stage shooting the rifle?? c'mon, guyz!

The video is poor quality and was not zoomed but you'll get the feel for it.

26 seconds and change with 2 TFN's for a total of 36 . I guess I was riding the brake because it stopped short and I had to pull myself about 5 feet to clear the barrels to get the last targets on the right, that plus the reload is the short pause you'll hear

Here's John with an excellent run finishing 4th onthe stage in Tac-Iron

Edited April 3, 2007 by TMC

[Merlin Orr]

I keep seeing the "match trigger" as being something dangerous...? Are we equating the words "match trigger' with some hack DYI improperly installed trigger that doubles or worse ...? or what? A properly installed (read professionally) JP trigger will NEVER double or try to "run away".

IMO.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've seen lots of people with a properly installed JP or any other short reset light trigger, "double". It's not a mechanical double, the trigger is working just fine. The problem normally occurrs when the gun isn't held tight and moves a bit in recoil. As you release the trigger the gun comes back out of recoil and you hit the trigger again. Essentially, just a fast 2 shot split. I know the guy this happened to and I know he's fast on the trigger, not dumb enough to run a substandard trigger.