2007 Nationals

[BritinUSA]

There are not many ranges that can realistically host a Nationals. We are fortunate that another range has been added to the list. USSA is amazing, it is custom built for big matches.

Missoula is a very nice range, I shot there years ago. I would prefer to shoot at Tulsa. Anyone who has seen that range would probably agree with me. But I will travel anywhere in the country to shoot Nationals. We had this event in Oregon, which is as far to the West of the country as it is possible to get.

The die-hards will travel anywhere. If they held a Nationals in Alaska in December they would be there.

It is what it is.... perhaps we should build a map showing all the ranges that could host a Nationals. There are not many.... Oregon, Missoula, Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma. That's about all I can think of... Anyone know of any more ???

[wgnoyes]

One thing about Missoula, you're not likely to send a round out over the berm. The "berm" is a fair-sized mountain that all the ranges face!

There's a steak place in town there which has a lot of really good microbrews available, too!

Edited November 6, 2006 by wgnoyes

[mlmiller1]

Isn't that like a judge or a marriage guidance counsellor hearing only one side of the story from only one of the parties? I'd like to see reps from USPSA and IPSC in a real debate so we can hear both sides of the story instead of the typical "our guy said whatever, so it must be right" narrow mindedness.

There was no talk about uspsa is right or ipsc is wrong. Nothing like that. What I heard was uspsa is separating itself from ipsc. The next rule book will be uspsa rule book, no crossover. MV said he wants to be supportive of ipsc but wants to be separate. The things most ipsc shooters overseas have to go through to even compete are so extreme that we basically have to compromise to play with them. We(uspsa) shooters don't want to compromise or be more politically correct. We don't want, as an example, to start accepting airsoft into our ranks. There is a place for airsoft but if we accept it into uspsa, then our government may start thinking that airsoft is good enough for us, that we don't need real guns. That sort of thing is what was discussed. That isn't saying ipsc is wrong or uspsa is right, it just says we have differences & we need to be separate. It made good sense to me. MV will continue working with ipsc, by the way, & he also said he wants ranges to continue having ipsc matches here in the U.S. but he was against making "crossover" matches.

As for production, MV seems to want only two "stock" gun catagories. Making that work & be realistic is the hard part. As Brit in US pointed out at the meeting, ipsc production(or whatever they call it) is impossible to police. The rules for a "stock" gun are so unrealistic it is not enforceable at all. MV seemed to have a plan of some sort. Hopefully the BOD got it worked out, I think they were voting on the new rules within a couple of weeks of the natl's.

MLM

[BritinUSA]

In the past I was always in favour of bringing USPSA and IPSC closer together with regard to the divisions and rules. But the debacle that is IPSC Production Division has proven that USPSA was right to keep them separate.

Under IPSC you can get your PD gun re-blued but only if it's done by the original manufacturer. How do they enforce that... it's insane and besides what difference does it make to the functionality of your gun... Bizarre !

MV seems to have the best interests of USPSA at heart and is willing to put the interest of our members ahead of IPSC, and that it the way it should be, I think.

I suspect that we will see some divisions go away in the next few years, it will upset some and please others. One thing is certain, not everyone will be happy but that's why we have elections. If your BOD member is doing the wrong thing then vote them out.

ps. The IPSC voted against Airsoft at the recent GA in Greece.

[bgary]

Just to be clear... USPSA is *not* separating from IPSC. USPSA will remain a fully affiliated member of the International Practical Shooting Confederation, will remain the duly-authorized "region" for IPSC in the US, and in fact will be a "more compliant" member than we have ever been, thanks to our commitment to run pure-IPSC matches in the US under purely-international rules... something we have not done much of in recent years.

At the same time, though, what we have done is gone on the record stating that USPSA (the organization) *also* has the right to run other forms of practical shooting competition int he US, under whatever rules we believe best meet the interest of our members. In that light, yes, we are working to define a US-specific rulebook, for implementation (probably) in 2008.

Just throwing this in because I think it is important to be precise in the way we phrase things. USPSA is not separating from IPSC. We're expanding to offer *more* services to our US shooters, while remaining fully affiliated with the international body.

Bruce

[Religious Shooter]

Don't worry about the whiners... "nothing to do" is just code for "no strip clubs".

Anybody know if this is a fact? Missoula has no strip clubs?

[Jim Norman]

As far as I am concerned, I would be happy if we went to Tulsa twice a year. The airport is 15 minutes from the range. There are restaurants of every type, (altough it seems that you have to like Hummis and Tabouli if you like local steakhouses). There is a multitude of hotels.

Continental flys direct from Newark and the cost is about $300.

Missoula may be the equal in range, heck it may be better. I don't know. Barry is within driving distance of a majority of the US population as is Tulsa. Flying to Barry is a bit more challenging. There is nothing to do in Barry. The range is 40-45 minutes from the match hotel. There are a few other places to stay, but most are a distance from either the range or dinner.

Speaking of dinner, how many restaurants does Missoula have? can they easily handle 500 additional people?

How about this as an idea? Open-Limited-Production-Limited 10-Revolver-Single stack at Tulsa, split into two separate matches as has become the standard. Than hold a Three Gun at either Barry or Missoula and an IPSC Championship or COntinental Championship at the other range.

Jim Norman

[BSeevers]

As far as I am concerned, I would be happy if we went to Tulsa twice a year. The airport is 15 minutes from the range. There are restaurants of every type, (altough it seems that you have to like Hummis and Tabouli if you like local steakhouses). There is a multitude of hotels.

Continental flys direct from Newark and the cost is about $300.

Missoula may be the equal in range, heck it may be better. I don't know. Barry is within driving distance of a majority of the US population as is Tulsa. Flying to Barry is a bit more challenging. There is nothing to do in Barry. The range is 40-45 minutes from the match hotel. There are a few other places to stay, but most are a distance from either the range or dinner.

Speaking of dinner, how many restaurants does Missoula have? can they easily handle 500 additional people?

How about this as an idea? Open-Limited-Production-Limited 10-Revolver-Single stack at Tulsa, split into two separate matches as has become the standard. Than hold a Three Gun at either Barry or Missoula and an IPSC Championship or COntinental Championship at the other range.

Jim Norman

I wish

PS What is lodging like in MT?

[caps]

Just throwing this in because I think it is important to be precise in the way we phrase things. USPSA is not separating from IPSC. We're expanding to offer *more* services to our US shooters, while remaining fully affiliated with the international body.

Thanks for clearing that up. Right now our green book is titled "IPSC Handgun Competition Rules, USPSA Version" and it also says USPSA/IPSC at the bottom. Does this mean the new USPSA rules will only say "USPSA" and the IPSC rules will only say "IPSC"?

The other question is could/should we make Tulsa our equivalent of the NRA's Camp Perry?

[Chuck Anderson]

Missoula had plenty of hotel space for the Area 1 a couple years ago, I don't think they'll have any problems with the competitors for a Nationals. There are plenty of restaraunts, and of course, Big Sky Brewing, maker of Moose Drool beer. There's no difference flying in for this match than there was flying in for Missoula or Bend. There are several clubs in the US that are capable of hosting a Nationals, the question is whether the clubs want to.

[zhunter]

Don't worry about the whiners... "nothing to do" is just code for "no strip clubs".

Anybody know if this is a fact? Missoula has no strip clubs?

There is at least one strip club there, but TRUST ME, you don't wanna go there!!!!

[tpcdvc]

Missoula is a great city with plenty of things to do and plenty of restaurants and hotels. It could easily support 10 times the people we would bring to a national match. And if memory serves me right I do think they have strip clubs . The only drawback is getting there is a little harder because of very few direct flights.

TC

[Steve Moneypenny]

"Looks like it's kind of a USPSA thing? Others are apparently better organized.

Single Stack Nationals April 26-28 2007

ICORE June 15-17 2007

Canadian Nationals August 1-5 2007

Steel Challenge August 16-17 2007

And yet Area 4, Area 8, two sectionals (South Carolina, Mississippi) and two "other" match (Summer Blast, Missouri) are already scheduled."

Aren't all of these matches in about the same geographic location? I do not thing we should have to wait so long for nationals dates, but only a few people can do so many things at one time. Meeting the logistical requirement that EVERYONE wants nationals in their back yard, Clubs having the ability to put on a top knotch match are few and that there are so few clubs bidding on the nationals. That is what makes it hard

I see a lot of people griping at the BOD and asking questions. It is easy to cast stones, instead of complaining lets all ask one question. "how can I help?" Just voulenteering at your local club, helping to build new clubs get more support and heck if your club is in the right place voulenteering to hold nationals... in 2008.. 9... 10??? maybe the facility isn't up to par now but could be brought up to par?

Just a side note.... how many of you were at the members meeting???? I had never been, and was kind of disappointed at the turnout. Our president and most of the BOD was there to answer any questions people had.

Our sport is a voulenteer sport. If we want better matches, knowing when they are and run it like a professional "dog & Pony show" lets get the membership of the dog and pony association, and the level of participation

[Jim Norman]

Steve,

I will answer you directly, but only for myself.

I am on the board at my club, I am a Match Director at my club, We run 12 USPSA monthly pistol matches, 23 indoor USPSA "Practice Matches, 2-3 USPSA Specialty matches. That doesn't include two steel matches a month at my home club and one more at my second club. in addition I also am active in helping out at a the second USPSA club in my area, I'd help more at a third, but sadly this past year I have had to work on their match day as often as not.

As to our range hosting a Nationals or an Area Match, sadly we are in the Peoples Republic of New Jersey. Area Matches are out, Sectionals are out and the Nationals, even if our range was big enough, it just wouldn't work. Even for a "Factory Gun" Where we could run Limited-10, Productin, Single Stack and Revolver, the state just has a bad aura when it comes to shooting, people won't come here.

All I am asking for when I started this thread was that the BOD make plans a bit further in advance. It would actually help them and make their job easier.

You stated, rightfully so, that there are already 9 major matches scheduled that many of our shooters will attend. Assuming that we can only use about 40% of the available weekends in a year as match dates, that is 20 weeks less the 9 already spoken for, leaving USPSA about 11 choice weeks. Wouldn't it be easier id USPSA set their schedule a year in advance so that all the areas and sections and specials could schedule around us, rather than USPSA around them?

Maybe we could even have a set of bookends to the Nationals, where people could travel to the Natinals a week early and shoot an area match say on Sunday, drive a day and shoot the Nationals, or shoot the Nats, vacation in an area for a week and shoot an area on the way home? That takes major planning for a shooter, it wouldn't be so harad if we knew in adavance when and where matches were to be held. Suppose the only dates for the Nats fall on two of the already used dates that have say Area 8 and Area 4 scheduled. Who is gong to lose out? Simple Everyone in each ot those areas AND the Nationals.

So I renew my call, (Plea, Begging, Pleading) Please schedule the Natinals as to dates and areas at least one year in advance. We don't really need to know the mix so much as the dates and locations.

Thank you for allowing me this minor rant.

Jim

Edited November 6, 2006 by Jim Norman

[Nik Habicht]

The other question is could/should we make Tulsa our equivalent of the NRA's Camp Perry?

Nope ---- and I LOVED USSA! Future Nationals venues should be evaluated based on what the host range/town has to offer. For many years now, the organization decided those interests would be best served by holding at least one match a year in Barry. This year, a new range came along and put in a bid to host a Nationals ---- and the match and facility and host town were terrific. We should certainly hold more matches there, if Tom Fee and crew are interested.

The thing you get from reevaluation of the suitability of different facilities/proposals, even if you make no changes for 20 years, is that you KNOW you're putting the match in the best place ---- you're not assuming that it's still true five or ten years down the road.....

[Flatland Shooter]

Lets see. Missoula, MT is 1975 miles from the house. And my drive (I don't fly, period)would take me within 75 miles of Tulsa.

You know where I would prefer.

[driver8M3]

I see a lot of people griping at the BOD and asking questions. It is easy to cast stones, instead of complaining lets all ask one question. "how can I help?"

yeah, the internet is an easy and convenient place for griping, but this is valid complaint, not just petty griping. there's not much any of us (outside the pres and/or BOD) can do to help, though i'm sure plenty of people would like to...jim, you're willing to help them decide, arent you?

Just a side note.... how many of you were at the members meeting????

i missed the annoucement in the match booklet...and never heard anything about it otherwise. i'm sure more people would have attended if it had been advertised better.

[bgary]

should we make Tulsa our equivalent of the NRA's Camp Perry?

Two thoughts;

1) People used to love going to Barry - it was in the middle of the country, PASA was (and still is) a phenomenal facility, etc, etc. Yet, when we were in a long-term contract with PASA, all we heard was how much it sucked to go to PASA "again", and why in the world would the Board "lock in" a deal that "forced" people to go to the same place every year. So... I'd think long and hard before proposing that we "lock us in" to Tulsa, or anywhere else, for a long contract.

2) the one thing that we positively, absolutely, unequivocally know to be true is that *every* member wants it to be within easy driving distance of their back yard. That's... kinda hard to do. When the matches were at Bend, the west-coast guys loved it, people east of the Rockies hated it. When there were matches on the eastern sea-board, people back east loved it, people west of the mississippi hated it. And so it goes. I think it is safe to say that, no matter where the nationals is, someone is going to live too far away for it to be an easy drive.

Lets see. Missoula, MT is 1975 miles from the house. And my drive (I don't fly, period)would take me within 75 miles of Tulsa.

Let's see... Tulsa is 1600 flight miles (or 2040 driving miles) from my house. What's good for you is not so good for others. And so it goes.

Bruce

[Rocket35]

I think that knowing the when and where is half the battle and the meat and potatoes of what we are starving for. That way people can see if there is a remote possibility of attending. I think most that have attended thus far will go just about anywhere, they just want to plan for the trip. I think that picking a date would help alleviate the overlap of matches and the ranges that want to sponsor a National event will have to clear their range schedule to accommodate such a date. Just this member's opinion....

[BSeevers]

just did a random search on Orbitz that is somewhat encouraging

2007 Sept 17-24 Dayton OH to Tulsa $406, Dayton OH to Missoula $527 1 stop air. Course I can drive to Tulsa and cut costs drastically.

Rooms not as encouraging. Around $40-50 a night more in Missoula with 1/2 of the properties with no rooms available.

[bgary]

When the Area-1 match has been in Missoula, Ruby's has been the match hotel

http://rubys.montana.com/

Rooms are about 80/night (2 adults, 2 beds), 10 minutes from range, good size rooms, lotsa restaurants (plus a wal-mart) within a couple of miles... and right across the street from McKenzie River Pizza - good beers, and be sure and try the caribbean chicken wings. yum!

There are more hotels closer to downtown, if that's your thing, but they tend to cost more.

B

in town there which has a lot of really good microbrews available

There's a place in town that has a microbrew club, and you get a special shirt when you have sampled all 50-something of their offerings. I think if someone managed to do that in the course of a match weekend, we could probably come up with a suitable award

B

[SteveZ]

I think if someone managed to do that in the course of a match weekend, we could probably come up with a suitable award

B

yeah....I think the "special" 10.7.3 award comes to mind.

[Waltermitty]

There's a place in town that has a microbrew club, and you get a special shirt when you have sampled all 50-something of their offerings. I think if someone managed to do that in the course of a match weekend, we could probably come up with a suitable award

B

(50 beers?)

Is this shirt orange and does it say COUNTY JAIL on the back?

[Shooter Grrl]

Sheesh youse guys - we went to our first Nationals in 1997 and WE HAD 3 MONTHS NOTICE! Y'all should be really thankful that Voigt has made it a major priority to TRY to have the dates announced by the end of the year!

Secondly, most of the blame needs to go squarely on the shoulders of the yahoo boards that run gun clubs. Don't believe me - the 3-Gun Nationals this year had to switch ranges. It's a MAJOR FREAKIN' miracle we had them at all.

[Nik Habicht]

just did a random search on Orbitz that is somewhat encouraging

2007 Sept 17-24 Dayton OH to Tulsa $406, Dayton OH to Missoula $527 1 stop air. Course I can drive to Tulsa and cut costs drastically.

Hmmm, 1500 miles roundtrip at $ .50 per mile works out to $750 round trip. Of course you save some cash not having to have a rental car, but any accountant will tell you it's not just the cost of gas you're considering......