Match Fees

[tnpyeron3]

This may have been covered, but I could not find the answer I was looking for so,

I recently got my GF involved in USPSA and she asked the question where do the match fees go?

I thought about it, and I could not give her a good answer.

I'm talking about Area, Sectional, and Misc matches where the fees are from $75 to $150.

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a battle, I'm just curious.

Thanks

Terry

[Flexmoney]

Big matches take large staffs. To get the staff to come back and help the next time, you gotta treat them well. This can include hotels fees, match fees, Staff shirts, food, prizes...etc.

Hundreds of targets, target sticks, paint, walls, 40,000 pasters, radios, timers, chronos, batteries, shade tents, score sheets, trophies, prizes...on and on.

The profit from the last Ohio Section match (where I was Match Director) went right to the host club...which goes back into range improvements and such.

[Rob Boudrie]

Gun clubs have overhead. My home club, which is not USPSA affiliated (not enough ranges, but we have a regular practice there) has a $14,000+ property tax bill; a $10,000 utility bill (winter heat and lighted skeet fields are expensive); and a $7000 general insurance (fire, etc.) and liability policy. Other gun clubs will also face financial challanges just to stay open.

There is a tendancy for every activity to assume they can run their event for the incremental cost of targets, supplies, props, etc. and not contribute to a share of the club's overhead. Dues rarely cover the entire operation and many clubs are in a marketplace where setting dues high enough to "do it all" will make it hard to find members.

Remember - as long as the club is a non-profit (and most are), the money the host "makes" off of you after expenses goes to support a gun range, and that's not an entirely bad thing.

ps: The financial report for teh 2005 ARea 7 Championship is posted with the results on www.uspsa.org. The 2006 match is still paying bills, so I don't have this year's financial report ready for publication yet.

[Vlad]

At my local clubs it goes like this:

$15/$20 match fee, part of it goes to USPSA for the classifiers, some goes to the section, some gets payed back in winnings to the division/class winners. Then some pays for the targets (they aren't cheap), sticks which gets shot up, water and ice for those who didn't bring their own, and if we feel nice that day coffee and donughts for the guys that show up 2 hours before anyone else to put the match together.

Those are the expenses for the match day, and they are the small ones. The match needs props. Walls, braces, screws, fault lines, steel targets (check out the prices on those some day), trailers to haul it all around, ATV's or golf carts to pull the trailers, gas for the ATV's or golf carts, paint for steel, paint for hardcover, tape for targets, staples, staple guns, timers, spare timers, timer batteries, boxes for each stage to store all the crap in, making many copies of the score sheets, and another 100 small things I'm forgeting.

And that is just to put on the matches. Then you have range maintaince. The berms need to be recut every now and then, garbage picked up, insurance payed, mortgages or leases on the land, utilities, tents, buildings and grounds, so on and so forth.

Note that I didn't attach numbers to any of those because they vary wildly from match to match and from state to state, and most clubs need to plan ahead and save their pennies from each match to make some of the bigger purchases.

[Nik Habicht]

Here's the 2005 Area 8 Match Financial Report, shamelessly lifted from the Area 8 website. That ought to give you a good breakdown of match expenses.....

Staff per diem is basically a refund of the match fee for staff members who work the entire weekend, or of a portion of the match fee for workers who can only participate for one or two days.

Locally, in the Mid-Atlantic section we pay prizes ($30 division win/$20 Class win) so the awards and USPSA activity fees of $3 per shooter tend to be our biggest expense items. After researching our 2005 financials, we generated just over $2000 in revenue for our host club on match fees of just over $7000 collected. We spent $5000 on prizes, activity fees, targets, repair materials, USPSA memberships (In the Mid-Atlantic Section we have a policy of shooters joining USPSA at a match shooting that match for free, their $40, if received in cash, still shows on our receipts, and our check to USPSA shows in our expenses), water coolers, ice, water, new timers and timer repair, tape, and tools.

Oh, and our parent club? They bought us 18 new US Poppers at the end of the year, at a cost of almost $3900. They own all of our props, from fence sections to trailers, golf carts to wall braces, target stands to timers. While we try to be self sufficient in keeping up with the small stuff, they've never balked at buying us the big stuff when we've asked.

[EricW]

It all seems like gravy right up until you start paying the bills. I wince a bit at $200+ match fees, but $100 for a major match doesn't seem out of line in the least.

[lynn jones]

2005 Area 8 Match Financial Report, Replacement Chrono Parts 107.34

:)

Edited August 18, 2006 by lynn jones

[bayoupirate]

At last year's Louisiana Gator Classic, everything above expenses went into and onto the prize table.

This year will be the same.

[Ron Rodgers]

For the 2005 Area 8 Championship, all money remaining after expenses went to the Division and Class winners and high finishers. This was in addition to the guns and other gifts donated by sponsors.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Ron Rodgers

[Nik Habicht]

For the 2005 Area 8 Championship, all money remaining after expenses went to the Division and Class winners and high finishers. This was in addition to the guns and other gifts donated by sponsors.

And looking at the match accounting report, it looks like you guys even added $0.34 to that pot ----- I'm really assuming it's just a transcription error.....

[Jaxshooter]

Having been the President and Board Member of several gun clubs for the last 30 years, primarily skeet and trap clubs. Most people don't have a clue what costs are incured by the clubs annually. They assume that since they are non profit organiztions everything should be cheap or no charge.

Our game is about as inexpensive as it gets both eqiupment and fees. The average cost for a weekend skeet shoot consisting of 400 targets with a small purse ( $10-15 per entry)paid back to the shooters is $200.00 +. Shotgun costs for an average over and under with small guage tubes is in the 4500.00 and up range. Sporting clays entry fees for larger events are 160.00 and up for 200 target main events. You will never hear me complain about entry fees in our sport after 30 + years shooting shotgun sports.

[tnpyeron3]

Thanks guys,

I guess as a shooter you never really realize what the clubs do to put on a big match.

Terry

[Flexmoney]

Don't feel bad about not knowing. When I started, I figured the guys running the local match were making money hadn over fist.

Turns out most of the "make the match happen" stuff is done by volunteers.

[Carmoney]

Great values in major matches are still out there if you look.

Our upcoming Iowa back-to-back Single-Stack and Revolver matches (10 stages per match, including classifer, fully sanctioned Level II matches, 192 rounds each) entry fees are $30 per match, or $50 to shoot both!

Another great value--the Minnesota Sectional is $35 this year.

In my view, some of the match fees that are being charged are pretty unconscionable.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Carmoney

[tnpyeron3]

Flex, I agree about the volunteers. I volunteer for our IDPA club, and man, what a workout.

Carmoney, some fees are a little ridiculous, but we have really good values here in N.Va area also. For around $20-$30 you can shot up to 7 stages at some ranges. Not bad.

But some majors leave me scratching my head, especially when you figure in travel, hotel, rental cars, etc.

But I wouldn't trade it for anything. Hell, I'm looking forward to the travel and experience of going to Area 2 even though it'll cost me around $1500 by the time I'm done. Hopefully I'll have a good showing.

[Front Man]

If clubs didn't buy stuff like a bunch of Texas Stars and think you have to use them on EVERY stage they wouldn't have to charge as much.

FM

[Barrettone]

My general ouiji board logic is $10 per stage when you figure out that you have to build it, staff it, and do all the little things to make it happen. There are a TON of incidentals, but $10 usually covers it. Therefore, for a 10 stage match, $100 is about the going rate. Of course, certain matches with HUGE prize tables like the Area 2 Desert Classic command more due to what they pass along to the competitors. You really have to scrutinize the details (especially the caliber of staffing they are bringing in...Area matches and big level III's tend to have more overhead in this category).

My .02,

Jeff

Edited August 19, 2006 by Barrettone

[Sestock]

I have seen A8 post the match financial report on the web site for the last several years.

Do the other areas post their financial reports for the general membership to view?

I think that it is a requirment to post the report?

[scorch]

$30.00 for a match fee, That would not cover the hotel cost for DEDICATED RO's on each stage at a major Match, (Which to have an equable stages for all, you must) Much less just plaques and stuff. Major Matches are MAJOR EXPENSIVE, if done RIGHT.

[sargenv]

You mean you get paid for working a level 3 match?

Ok, I guess getting a match discount is similar to being paid...

Until I was volunteered (yes, I was nominated, lol) to be our section treasurer, I had no idea what it cost to run a big (big to me) match.. Since being volunteered for that job, I also stepped up for my own club and for all we take in, we pretty much put it back into the club in the form of misc supplies, targets sticks, paper targets, investment in new steel targets, awards for shooters, and on and on. USPSA gets a chunk of the fees, the range where we shoot gets a chunk of the match fee leaving us with enough to allow the MD and 4 stage designers to shoot for free, 1 helper for each of the stage designers to shoot for half off, and the scorekeeper to also shoot for free. It just happens that we can get anywhere from 30 to 60 shooters a match, 24 matches a year. Sometimes we make little money (usually in the winter) and we depend on the larger draw of the summer matches to carry us through the winter. I personally shoot at least 16 ipsc matches a year (at my home club) and then there is ICORE, multi-gun, steel, and other little specialty matches. Has anyone ever figured out how much it costs to buy the steel for a full steel challenge course? It isn't cheap!

Vince

[John Heiter]

Sounds like most of the responses so far have been right on. Just want to add my +1 to the idea of compensating the RO's in some form or fashion.

Every year for our Level III section championship we do our best to in some way compensate our RO's who put in hundreds (thousands?) of man hours to make the match happen. These guys start months ahead of time repairing props, building others, gathering everything needed to put on the match, etc. I'm very lucky in that most of my out-of-town RO's find places to stay on their own with friends or are willing to cover their own hotel expenses. We try to help out where/when we can but it in no way makes up for the work they put in. We also do a special RO prize table and try to put slightly better (dollar avg.) prizes on it but that doesn't always work out either. Is it worth it to work 40+ hours over a three day period for a prize that's maybe $20 better than what you would have gotten from the regular table? That's some pretty hard work for .50 cents an hour.

Given all that, it's amazing to me that I am made to feel guilty when I hear from the occasional competitor about how we "give" away all the good stuff to the RO's. I understand how someone who has never put on a big match might get the impression that there is a lot of money floating around and they might not understand the accounting. Just encouraging everyone to think about the what is involved before they jump in complaining about RO "perks" and match directors who are "lining their pockets".

John

[ima45dv8]

Sounds like most of the responses so far have been right on. Just want to add my +1 to the idea of compensating the RO's in some form or fashion.

Every year for our Level III section championship we do our best to in some way compensate our RO's who put in hundreds (thousands?) of man hours to make the match happen. These guys start months ahead of time repairing props, building others, gathering everything needed to put on the match, etc. I'm very lucky in that most of my out-of-town RO's find places to stay on their own with friends or are willing to cover their own hotel expenses. We try to help out where/when we can but it in no way makes up for the work they put in. We also do a special RO prize table and try to put slightly better (dollar avg.) prizes on it but that doesn't always work out either. Is it worth it to work 40+ hours over a three day period for a prize that's maybe $20 better than what you would have gotten from the regular table? That's some pretty hard work for .50 cents an hour.

Given all that, it's amazing to me that I am made to feel guilty when I hear from the occasional competitor about how we "give" away all the good stuff to the RO's. I understand how someone who has never put on a big match might get the impression that there is a lot of money floating around and they might not understand the accounting. Just encouraging everyone to think about the what is involved before they jump in complaining about RO "perks" and match directors who are "lining their pockets".

John

Standard answer is, "Oh, you want some of that good RO loot, too? Here's where you sign up. Welcome aboard!"

[George]

I used to be the treasurer for the same club Vince is now and even 15+ years ago it was exactly the same. Any profit made at large matches was basically covering other expenses the club had. It was always barely break-even, maybe get some new gear or a range improvement out of it all if you are lucky.

Non-profit and charitable organizations make way more money than a typical USPSA shooting club does. Most folks involved in putting on the small and large matches in this sport are making sacrifices to do so and get only the enjoyment of involvement as their reward for personal time and money spent to do the task.

[Glenn Tracey]

I can't argue with most of the comments to the thread, but I'm beginning to think that this is: a young guys game and one with a nice paycheck.

There are a few, probably more than a few, that are retired, are on a fixed income, are shooting "Super Senior", and feel a $100/$200 Match fee is too much.

I'm one such guy........I'd travel to more major matches, make some other sacrifices, if there was some slack or just plain lower, major match fees. I absolutely have zero problem with the fees charged by local matches.

I've been 3 gun ( back then it was pistol, revolver and pistol) since the days of Gil Hebard and Bill Blankenship. I've shot at Perry, I shoot the local Matches and see that it is personnel/local club intensive intensive. And, I used to volunteer my time for free.

Free! Nothing received, Free!.

That said, I do have to agree with Mike Carmoney about many of the fees.

I probably wouldn't have even stopped in to comment had I not read the thread on "Prize Tables".

Sorry guys, call it sour grapes or whatever, but maybe there should be some assessment of what high fees do to the Juniors and Seniors. For this person, it just limits my overall ability to compete

I will change my mind the first time I ever get invited to see a prize table though.