Loaded Sight Pictures In Uspsa?

[bgary]

I am not an RM, but... I'd have a hard time swallowing a DQ for that. It does seem to me that it fits the definition of "premature start" pretty well.

Let's say that - after LAMR - I've loaded up my gun, I'm looking thru the scope at a target, and I break a shot... resulting in a perfect "A" hit on T-1.

What rule have I broken?

-- didn't go over the berm (10.4.1)

-- didn't hit within 3 meters of my feet (10.4.2)

-- didn't happen while loading/reloading/unloading (10.4.3)

-- didn't happen while clearing a malf (10.4.4)

-- didn't happen while changing hands (10.4.5)

-- etc.

...and, more relevantly, doesn't seem to correspond with any of the examples of unsafe gun handling (10.5). In fact, the only thing that separates *this* shot from a valid, scoring shot is the fact that the RO has not yet given me the rest of the commands and a beep. I *am* in the course of fire, I have been given the appropriate command to load my gun, etc, etc.

Not saying it is a Good Thing, just... bristling at the idea that another muddy use of "I don't know what I should DQ you for, but I don't like what you did so I'm going to call it unsafe gun handling" is going to get codified into our game.

B

[Merlin Orr]

.......

Not saying it is a Good Thing, just... bristling at the idea that another muddy use of "I don't know what I should DQ you for, but I don't like what you did so I'm going to call it unsafe gun handling" is going to get codified into our game.

B

Yep.

[Jake Di Vita]

Seems to be like it happened during loading if it is before the start signal.

[PhilTerry]

Seems to me that the IPSC "No loaded sight picture" solves all these problems!

We are supposed to be "Practical" pistol after all - in real life practical situations I don't think I would bother with a sight picture!

[Flexmoney]

How can you engage targets before the start signal?

DQ for finger in the trigger guard.

Good luck at arb. It might be winnable.

[Nik Habicht]

How can you engage targets before the start signal?

DQ for finger in the trigger guard.

Good luck at arb. It might be winnable.

Riddle me this batman ---- you're in the prescribed start position, have heard Are You Ready, Standby. While waiting for the RO to start the timer, you react to the timer from the next bay and engage a target before the timer in your RO's hand has gone off. Should we DQ you for this? What's the difference?

And since when is a finger in the trigger guard illegal ---- by itself? I'm taking a standing sight picture --- no movement, no loading, unloading, malfunction clearing going on... What rule have I broken?

[Gary Stevens]

Nik,

I answered your riddle in post number 18.

Different subject:

I am astounded that anyone would think that discharging a round into or not into a target prior to the start signal, during the load and make ready command would not be a DQ.

If a shooter points at a target and fires a shot they either did it accidently or intentionally. Either way I don't want them on a range I am running. If it was an accident, it seems clearly 10.5 applies. If it was intentionally then it seems 10.6 will apply. I can't think of much behavior that will likely bring the sport into disrepute faster than allowing a shooter to just start firing rounds, prior to the start signal, whenever they feel like it.

We teach and preach that safety is our number one objective. To do less flys in the face of that teaching.

Gary

[Flexmoney]

It's a true "Accidental Discharge".

[bgary]

I guess I'm equally astounded that *during* the course of fire (which began with LAMR), a shot fired into a target would be considered "unsafe gun handling", in the complete absence of any tangible violation of a rule.

Please understand, I'm not saying I think it is a good thing to do, nor should be allow it. But... to say that a shot after an arbitrary beep is a hit, and a shot before that same beep is UGH, is really stretching the definition of UGH.

Let's change the example a little. Lets say it *isn't* an accident - let's say I do it quite deliberately to... um... I don't know, check my zero. I'm too lazy to go to the function-fire area. Now it isn't accidental. Still going to call it an AD, or UGH? On what basis? (oh, and note that Unsportsmanlike Conduct generally comes in if I willfully disregard the ROs command... so if you call me on that one, I'm gonna want to know which command I ignored...)

This is an opportunity to create a *good* rule, if a genuine need exists, now that the we have the cover open on the USPSA rulebook. It is *not*, in my opinion, necessary to badly-interpret a doesn't-quite-fit rule to sorta-solve this.

B

[Gary Stevens]

Bruce I quoted the part of 10.6 that I would hang my hat on. It had nothing to do with disregarding commands of the RO.

Gary

[Bigbadaboom]

Qualifier: I NEVER take loaded sight pictures and I prefer that others whom I'm R.O.ing don't do it but it's allowed so I can't stop them. If someone let one go into a target during a loaded sight picture I would not only want to D.Q. them I would want to kick them out of the world BUT I can't find anywhere in the rules where a D.Q. would stand up. Would I make the call and force them into Arbitration? Absolutely!! Do I think they could win it? Absolutely.

It was stated that rule 8.6.4 only applies if you hear a start signal from another range and draw and start shooting so it's assumed that rule 8.6.4 only applies after the "Are you ready" command but what if, with my electronic ears, I hear the "Are you ready" command from an R.O. at the bay next door followed by his start signal?

All I'm saying is that it's the R.O.'s word against the shooters rather it was an A.D. and all the R.O. has is the rule book, not his own interpretation of how it should be. That is why USPSA/IPSC outlines what designates an A.D. and a shot into a target is not designated as an A.D. per those rules. Taking a loaded sight picture is not loading, unloading or reloading your gun and shooting a hole into a target is not unsafe gun handling. It's another one of those ambiguous zones in the world of the USPSA/IPSC rule book.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[vluc]

I'd never consider a sight picture with the weapon loaded. Matter of fact, I never gave a second thought to the fact that it would be legal until this post.

As an RO I'm ashamed I did not know that, but frankly, such a thought would never have crossed my mind. Why would we allow a sight picture with a loaded gun during a cof when you have ample opportunity to take it before loading the weapon? Maybe we should say "Make ready and load" rather than LAMR...keeps the sequence clean.

If you forgot to take one, tough...

[Jim Norman]

Are we debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here?

There are myriad reasons that a shoter may want to take a sight picture with a loaded gun, especially in Open. Forgot your dot? Sun just went behind lartge cloud, or came out from behind one?

That said, I think that so long as the shot hits a target, and does not leave the range, it is not UGH.

The real question is has this happened? If yes, How often? Do you have personal knowledge of the event, or just a friend of a friend heard from a guy...

Let's look at rules that need change or need to be changed back to the way they were.

You know my pet peeves there I am sure.

Jim

[mactiger]

Why would you not allow a loaded sight picture, while the competitor is not under the timer and is under no pressure to shoot accurately or quickly? Especially when, in the next several seconds, we are going to allow him to either draw or retrieve a loaded gun and run through a course of fire, while being timed? Loaded sight pictures aren't the problem. I've seen scores of people take them, and have never seen the gun go off. In fact, I've never even heard of someone actually cranking off a round while taking a loaded sight picture.

Troy

I'd never consider a sight picture with the weapon loaded. Matter of fact, I never gave a second thought to the fact that it would be legal until this post.

As an RO I'm ashamed I did not know that, but frankly, such a thought would never have crossed my mind. Why would we allow a sight picture with a loaded gun during a cof when you have ample opportunity to take it before loading the weapon? Maybe we should say "Make ready and load" rather than LAMR...keeps the sequence clean.

If you forgot to take one, tough...

[vluc]

All the open shooters I've seen or run, as well as other shooters, take their sight picture after the LAMR command and before inserting a magazine. They check their dots as part of their sequence/routine. Guess it's peculiar to the clubs around here.

I have to remember, as was posted on EricW's thread, that just because things are done a certain way in his area, does not mean they are done that way in my region of the world. Just because I've never seen it in a single local match in the 4 years I've been an RO or the two Area matches, 2 Tri-States or the Sectional matches I've RO'd means nothing.

Why would you not allow a loaded sight picture, while the competitor is not under the timer and is under no pressure to shoot accurately or quickly? Especially when, in the next several seconds, we are going to allow him to either draw or retrieve a loaded gun and run through a course of fire, while being timed?

Isn't that what LAMR is for? Is a sight picture with a loaded gun "better" than one without? We put such a premium on safety, with getting on a shooter for having a magazine in gun, or not going to a safe area with loaded magazines that TO ME, it seems that allowing one to fiddle with the loaded gun before the start of the cof is directly opposite what we keep trying to teach new shooters.

If my empty gun falls out of my holster I cannot touch it, but I can do sight pictures with a loaded gun before the start of the course of fire. Okay, whatever. I've now learned something new.

[Bigbadaboom]

All the open shooters I've seen or run, as well as other shooters, take their sight picture after the LAMR command and before inserting a magazine. They check their dots as part of their sequence/routine. Guess it's peculiar to the clubs around here.

I have to remember, as was posted on EricW's thread, that just because things are done a certain way in his area, does not mean they are done that way in my region of the world. Just because I've never seen it in a single local match in the 4 years I've been an RO or the two Area matches, 2 Tri-States or the Sectional matches I've RO'd means nothing.

Why would you not allow a loaded sight picture, while the competitor is not under the timer and is under no pressure to shoot accurately or quickly? Especially when, in the next several seconds, we are going to allow him to either draw or retrieve a loaded gun and run through a course of fire, while being timed?

Isn't that what LAMR is for? Is a sight picture with a loaded gun "better" than one without? We put such a premium on safety, with getting on a shooter for having a magazine in gun, or not going to a safe area with loaded magazines that TO ME, it seems that allowing one to fiddle with the loaded gun before the start of the cof is directly opposite what we keep trying to teach new shooters.

If my empty gun falls out of my holster I cannot touch it, but I can do sight pictures with a loaded gun before the start of the course of fire. Okay, whatever. I've now learned something new.

The differences between your examples are under and not under the direct supervision of an R.O..

[shred]

1 proceedural per shot for "creeping".

Actually this sounds like a "false start under 8.6.4:

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely

(“false start”), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

The COF begins with LAMR, right?

What if they hit a no-shoot or it's a virginia-count stage? Do the penalties and points accrue?

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

I answered your riddle in post number 18.

Different subject:

I am astounded that anyone would think that discharging a round into or not into a target prior to the start signal, during the load and make ready command would not be a DQ.

If a shooter points at a target and fires a shot they either did it accidently or intentionally. Either way I don't want them on a range I am running. If it was an accident, it seems clearly 10.5 applies. If it was intentionally then it seems 10.6 will apply. I can't think of much behavior that will likely bring the sport into disrepute faster than allowing a shooter to just start firing rounds, prior to the start signal, whenever they feel like it.

We teach and preach that safety is our number one objective. To do less flys in the face of that teaching.

Gary

Gary,

I got that. Flex argued that he'd DQ someone for having their finger in the trigger guard --- my question was "How does this act --- an aimed shot at a target --- materially differ from a false start as outlined in 8.6.4? I intended the question to be potstirring in nature, because, like you I was astounded at the thought process that wouldn't lead to a DQ in this situation. But then Bruce happened along ----- and now I want to hear more and think more.....

OTOH, we may be wasting our collective time, because my practical experience with this mirrors Troy's ---- I've only seen a few (less than a handful) loaded sight pictures and the gun has never gone off. To my recollection I've taken one, and it caused me to solidify my LAMR routine to avoid a repeat --- not because I think it's a problem, but because I don't want to have a conversation with the RO when I'm in the start position....

[Flexmoney]

All the open shooters I've seen or run, as well as other shooters, take their sight picture after the LAMR command and before inserting a magazine. They check their dots as part of their sequence/routine. Guess it's peculiar to the clubs around here.

V,

We see a lot of the same shooters, and I have seen plenty of loaded sight pictures. I've never seen it be a safety problem. (and, I believe the rule was really put in place by those that hope to force shooters to not take so much time at LAMR)

[Flexmoney]

Flex argued that he'd DQ someone for having their finger in the trigger guard --- my question was "How does this act --- an aimed shot at a target --- materially differ from a false start as outlined in 8.6.4?

I think we all know what a false start is...and that sure isn't what we are talking about, now is it?

You are suggesting that a shooter is taking "an aimed shot at a target"...before the start signal???

I think that is pure madness.

What would any shooter in their right mind do that for? If that were truly the case, then I think we would likely have a real situation of UnsportsmanLike Conduct.

If this were to ever happen when I am RO'ing, I feel I would need to DQ the shooter. We all know the shooter doesn't intend the gun to go off...that is the true definition of an Accidental Discharge.

If it ever happens, I'll dig through the rule book and find out how to write it up. I'd hope that the shooter would have the moral fortitude to take their DQ and not arb it...as we all know they are guilt of letting loose a round accidentally.

If they do arb and win, then fine. That will force NROI to address the issue I guess. Plus, the shooter will likely need that hour to run to Walmart and get some clean shorts.

I intended the question to be potstirring in nature, because, like you I was astounded at the thought process that wouldn't lead to a DQ in this situation. But then Bruce happened along ----- and now I want to hear more and think more.....

I agree. It's a good discussion.

Since we have 2 Area Directors and Troy here, I'd hope that this would get put on the rules tweaking agenda. But, we want to be careful what we wish for here...it would be far to easy for us to end up with the IPSC rule...which would suck, IMO.

OTOH, we may be wasting our collective time, because my practical experience with this mirrors Troy's ---- I've only seen a few (less than a handful) loaded sight pictures and the gun has never gone off. To my recollection I've taken one, and it caused me to solidify my LAMR routine to avoid a repeat --- not because I think it's a problem, but because I don't want to have a conversation with the RO when I'm in the start position....

I've never seen it be a safety issue, and I see it all the time. I have never even heard of somebody touching one off under these circumstances.

I take a loaded sight picture any time I go to holster and notice something funky about my front sight. Sometimes there is some lent or something on there. Most of the time it's just rust. But, one time it was a big clump of mud on the end of my barrel.

[ima45dv8]

Flex argued that he'd DQ someone for having their finger in the trigger guard --- my question was "How does this act --- an aimed shot at a target --- materially differ from a false start as outlined in 8.6.4?

Not picking on you Nik, but this question clarifies a lot of this for me.

If I witnessed an instance of a shot fired during the LAMR routine, I would have serious doubts about it being an "aimed shot" at a target. The shooter may have been deliberately aiming at a target, but I won't ever believe the fired shot was intentional and deliberate unless the shooter announces to me in advance their intent to fire that shot (absurd, yes, but that's what it would take to convince me). In the absence of any evidence of deliberate intention to fire the shot, I could only view that as a shooter not in control of themself or their gun at that moment.

If I'm on the timer, it's my responsibility to ensure the safety of everyone in the vicinity, and my conscience would not permit me to allow a shooter to proceed who had just demonstrated such a serious lack of control. That shooter would find themselves with an immediate match DQ under 10.5 - UGH, and an opportunity to arbitrate if desired.

Gray area? Yes.

Judgement required? Yes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA: Flex, looks like we're in synch on this, but your bots type faster than I can.

Edited August 9, 2006 by ima45dv8

[vluc]

V,

We see a lot of the same shooters, and I have seen plenty of loaded sight pictures. I've never seen it be a safety problem. (and, I believe the rule was really put in place by those that hope to force shooters to not take so much time at LAMR)

Guess I've been lucky!

[Nik Habicht]

Flex argued that he'd DQ someone for having their finger in the trigger guard --- my question was "How does this act --- an aimed shot at a target --- materially differ from a false start as outlined in 8.6.4?

Not picking on you Nik, but this question clarifies a lot of this for me.

If I witnessed an instance of a shot fired during the LAMR routine, I would have serious doubts about it being an "aimed shot" at a target. The shooter may have been deliberately aiming at a target, but I won't ever believe the fired shot was intentional and deliberate unless the shooter announces to me in advance their intent to fire that shot (absurd, yes, but that's what it would take to convince me). In the absence of any evidence of deliberate intention to fire the shot, I could only view that as a shooter not in control of themself or their gun at that moment.

If I'm on the timer, it's my responsibility to ensure the safety of everyone in the vicinity, and my conscience would not permit me to allow a shooter to proceed who had just demonstrated such a serious lack of control. That shooter would find themselves with an immediate match DQ under 10.5 - UGH, and an opportunity to arbitrate if desired.

Gray area? Yes.

Judgement required? Yes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA: Flex, looks like we're in synch on this, but your bots type faster than I can.

We're in agreement on the "Deer in Headlights Look" kind of accidental discharge during a loaded sight picture ---- it ought to be a DQ. My issue was with Flex's reasoning --- I don't think that finger in the trigger guard is the rule to cite. I'd probably cite UGH, under the non-inclusive list part......

And I don't think that deliberately shooting before the buzzer is o.k. either.....

[TDean]

Why did we change the rule to allow loaded sight pictures?

Who thought that would be a great idea?

It seems the stage starts on LAMR, but we are NOT supposed to shoot until SRSB-beeeeeep!.

If a shooter pops off a round before the RO starts the SRSB call, it should be a DQ. Now lets make a rule to enfore that and be done with this BS

[ima45dv8]

And I don't think that deliberately shooting before the buzzer is o.k. either.....

Oh, I knew that!