Loaded Sight Pictures In Uspsa?

[Flexmoney]

Many a time at a major match I've seen RO's who aren't as familiar with the rulebook as they should be reprimand my friend for this routine. This of course completely screws with my friends concentration as he not only has to show the RO the applicable rule (lest he be unfairly DQ'ed) and also calls into question the ability of the RO when it comes to other rules interpretations. If an RO is willing to b#tch out a shooter over a rule that doesn't apply to USPSA, what other score (or match) affecting interpretations of the rules is the RO going to make?

I've had to deal with that at the Nationals last year, and then a Major match this year.

Sounds like a good question to go on the RO/CRO re-certification tests ! (Troy...you out there?)

[Jim Norman]

If an RO is willing to b#tch out a shooter over a rule that doesn't apply to USPSA, what other score (or match) affecting interpretations of the rules is the RO going to make?

let me guess....trying to assess more then 2 hits on a no-shoot penalty target? I've seen that happen numerous times!

Up until a couple years ago, this was the rule. In the opinion of many it still should be.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Jim, although I agree, if you are going to start talking about that again...let me know. I've been working on finishing part of the basement and I already have a hammer out. I could save myself some time and just start whacking myself in the head with it.

[Jim Norman]

Flex,

You should notice, I didn't bring it up and I will leave it lie.

For the moment.

There will be a day when it may be proper to bring it up again, along with the inverted target rule. Until then...

Jim

Edited August 16, 2006 by Jim Norman

[mactiger]

I've had to deal with that at the Nationals last year, and then a Major match this year.

Sounds like a good question to go on the RO/CRO re-certification tests ! (Troy...you out there?)

Yep. This question is on one of the in-class tests in the level one seminar, and is something we go over in the scenarios/simulations and discuss in class to some extent.

We can see about adding it to the final and to the recert test, though.

And, I'll remind the staff at Nationals about the sight picture thing, just in case.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

You da man ! I vote...you get a pay raise.

[mactiger]

I'll take it!

:-)

Troy

[SteveZ]

Ok...what about this?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to

by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

and 10.5.9 says....

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading.

So it would seem that after the shooter is given the LAMR and puts a loaded magazine into their gun, they're now in the phase of "loading" their gun. I'd view the period defined as "loading" as the point from which the competitor places the magazine into the gun to the point where the gun is holstered prior to the Are You Ready?.... command. (much like a COF isn't over until the competitor places the gun back in the holster and removes their hands from the gun 8.3.7.3).

So it would seem to me (based on 10.5.13 and 10.5.9) that a shooter taking a loaded sight picture had better NOT get their finger in the trigger guard (regardless of the gun going off. If it does, you could add 10.4.3 to the list of DQ infractions) or they would be DQ'ed under 10.5.9/10.5.13. I don't think a competitor could try and claim 8.6.4 because 10.5.13 and 10.5.9 happened prior to the gun going "bang"

Edited August 17, 2006 by SteveZ

[bgary]

Wow, that's some seriously leapin' logic.

Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to

The shooter *has* been specifically ordered to... right when the RO said "Load and Make Ready".

I'd view the period defined as "loading" as the point from which the competitor places the magazine into the gun to the point where the gun is holstered prior to the Are You Ready?

So, bearing in mind that the shooter is *in* the Course of Fire as soon as the LAMR command has been given, how (or why) should that "loading operation" be considered different, or end at a different point, than any other reload during the CoF. In other words, *after* the beep, my reload is done as soon as the mag is in the gun, right? You're saying that *this* loading is special, and may last several seconds or minutes after the mag is seated?

I still think this is a DQ in search of a rule. There simply isn't one in the rulebook to support it, without ... um... "creative interpretations"... and I *hate* creative interpretations.

Bruce

[Flexmoney]

I still think this is a DQ in search of a rule. There simply isn't one in the rulebook to support it, without ... um... "creative interpretations"... and I *hate* creative interpretations.

Bruce

You might be right. The question is...what is the lessor of two evils here?

It seems you agree it ought to be DQ'able...just that the rulebook gives a loophole. Don't you *hate* loopholes more than creative interpretations ? Especially with regards to a safety issue?

What should we do?

- Quit running USPSA/IPSC matches...

- Have the RO's (like me) that might DQ for this offense stop running shooters...

- Make it a priority fix in the next round of rules and keep on truckin'...

- Forget about it entirely, because it has never happened and isn't real likely too...

[bgary]

What should we do?

C: - make it a fix in the next round, so that any RO in the country can pick up a rulebook and read - in plain english - what to do about it, so they don't have to "toss it to an arb committee to figure out"

-B

Edited August 17, 2006 by bgary

[ima45dv8]

First sentence of the Range Officer's Creed:

"As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions."

With that in mind, anyone who is lacking sufficient control to keep from firing a shot while taking a sight picture will not be allowed to continue if I'm the RO.

- Make it a priority fix in the next round of rules and keep on truckin'...

I was told by John A. that it will be addressed in the next version of the rulebook.

[SteveZ]

Wow, that's some seriously leapin' logic.

Hi ya Bruce! I wasn't focusing on the first part of 10.5.13, I was focusing on what it defined as "loaded gun" which it says "A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

". A gun can only become "loaded gun" if it has been "loaded" (whoa...there's some Zen stuff for ya! )

In other words, *after* the beep, my reload is done as soon as the mag is in the gun, right?

Actually my understanding is that the reload is "complete" when the shooter is back to "engaging" targets again (which I think I was told during my RO course with Troy...but I wouldn't swear to it). Case in point, say (using your definition of when the reload is complete), a shooter has the gun rotated such that the muzzle is pointing at the side berm, inserts the magazine, gets his finger on the trigger and pops one into the side berm while standing static. By your hypothetical definition of "reload" it would be complete so 10.4.3 wouldn't apply, 10.5.9 wouldn't apply...basically nothing applies....zip, zilch...nada (Isn't that a light chicken gravy???) The shooter has fired a round into the side berm (and there are no targets over there)...he not moving. There's nothing left in the rule book to DQ him under...yet we KNOW he didn't shoot at anything!

You're saying that *this* loading is special, and may last several seconds or minutes after the mag is seated?

In a nutshell....YUP! Except I don't think its so special. You're given the LAMR command.....when you place the magazine into the gun, you've now officially entered the "loading" part of LAMR and when the gun is placed into the holster, you've completed the "loading" part and are at the Ready part of LAMR.

I still think this is a DQ in search of a rule. There simply isn't one in the rulebook to support it, without ... um... "creative interpretations"... and I *hate* creative interpretations.

I hate creative interpretations too...but I think we've got the rules to cover this now...we just need a few clarification on definitions put into writting such as 1) when does reloading start and stop 2) when does loading start and stop, etc.

Hey Troy.....whats your view on these two? When does reloading/loading start-stop?

[JD McDorce]

I was told by John A. that it will be addressed in the next version of the rulebook.

I wonder if it would be as simple as modifying 10.4.3 to read: A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rules 8.3.1 and 8.3.7.

[Chuck Anderson]

Sure, RO's need to make sure the range is safe. Other than it being not what we expected, what is really usafe about firing a shot into a target, from the start position, after the RO gave the LAMR command, but 5 seconds before the RO was going to give you the signal to shoot. Admittedly at first blush it seems like it must be a shooter not in control. But is it really, or is it probably just brain fade the in actuallity, really isn't as unsafe as everyone wants to make it seem.

As far as when loading stops, I was always told it was when you are done loading, mag in gun and hand away from magazine. You can't really say, under the current rules, that loading ends when the gun is back in the holster because there isn't a different definition of loading under LAMR. And I don't know about you but I don't holster everytime I hit a reload. You also can't say it ends when the second hand reaquires a firing grip because that doesn't address SHO/WHO only stages, or the fact that IPSC is freesytle and if I want to shoot the whole thing one handed I can. As far as the definition of the load ends when the shooter is back engaging targets, that would be any AD that they made. "What?? There's no target within 10 feet of where my, deliberate, gun on it's side and pointed at berm, shot went. Jeez, I must have really jerked the trigger, but I was engaging a target." How about a closer situation where there is a target nearby but it's obviously an AD (you know shooter has the dumb slack expression on their face and the rapidly growing wet spot in the crotch). He hits the target with his hand on the magazine as he seats it. Sure an AD, but once that hand comes away? I think he's good, just in need of a new pair of underwear.

[ima45dv8]

Sure, RO's need to make sure the range is safe. Other than it being not what we expected, what is really usafe about firing a shot into a target, from the start position, after the RO gave the LAMR command, but 5 seconds before the RO was going to give you the signal to shoot.

What's unsafe is it is not a deliberate shot. We are talking about an unintentional, unplanned firing of a round. Some have argued that it does not fit the definition of an AD under 10.4, but it is an Accident, and a Discharge. In this case, 2 + 2 + A.D. whether the rulebook classifies it as one or not (which will hopefully be corrected in the next version).

Admittedly at first blush it seems like it must be a shooter not in control. But is it really, or is it probably just brain fade the in actuallity, really isn't as unsafe as everyone wants to make it seem.

A shot fired while taking a sight picture? Definitely -- out of control.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There have been several suggestions that something like this really isn't all *that* bad. In and of itself, maybe it's not. Many of the offences that people use to DQ themselves are not, as isolated incidents, so very unsafe. But our safety program (which enjoys such an enviable record) is based on the 4 Rules of Gun Safety, any one of which can be broken without catastrophic results. Break 2 or more at the same time and there's a very strong chance of someone being seriously injured or killed. So when we see something unsafe, we stop that shooter before they have a chance to move on to their second brain fade.

[Flexmoney]

Chuck, you are scaring me a bit.

Ok..driver falls asleep while driving car drunk. But driver is only going 5mph, so when driver hits a tree...there is no damage...so it's not unsafe?

Same scenario, but driver is going 80mph, goes over the median while heading down the interstate...right into oncoming traffic.

In both cases...the driver is out of control.

[Chuck Anderson]

Shooter is shooting on the move and preps the trigger too much, ADing into a target getting an A zone hit. No problem right? Shooter deliberately fires a round into a target while standing still, just before the buzzer. And there's a big difference in your scenario Flex, at least in Oregon. There's a law against driving drunk. It specifies you can't do this. There isn't in the rule book and stretching it because it makes us feel better doesn't work. How about another scenario, driver falls asleep and isn't drunk. Bumps a tree at five MPH. Unsafe? yes, a criminal violation? No. Does it scare the hell out of me? Of course. Am I gonna flex and twist a law or rule that doesn't apply because I think it should be that way? Nope.

Now if they make a new rule saying this is a DQ I will whole heartedly endorse it and think it should be. But until then, I will not arbitrarily make up rules or try and bend them the way that I think they should be as an RO. I really don't care if that scares you or not.

[Flexmoney]

I hope you aren't getting bent out of shape about this? I'm simply disagreeing with your position.

Shooter deliberately fires a round into a target while standing still, just before the buzzer.

That is a whole different can of worms. (And may fall under 10.6.2 "...interference

with the operation of a course of fire...) The thrust of this discussion has been the shooter who lets one loose in a in a non-deliberate fashion during LAMR.

I suppose there could be a question as to how the RO would know if the shot was deliberate or not. Although the answer there is probably pretty clear...especially since nobody can ever recall an instance of this 'what if' scenario ever happening in the first place.

You've mentioned a time or two about a shooter accidentally letting one loose and getting lucky and hitting a target. That's not a free out for them either. The applicable rule there reads like: A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

Key words there being the actually shooting at targets part. How would the RO know the difference? Well, subjective as it may be, that is part of the RO's job...to make calls...just like officials in just about any sport. We like to get as much of the subjectivity out as we can...but the Official still has to be accountable for what they observe , and apply the appropriate rules.

Back on point...

Maybe the call here might fall under the general rule, 10.3.1... A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an IPSC match will be disqualified from that match...

- While this particular "infraction" isn't further defined in later specific rules, that may not mean it's a free ride.

- Or...perhaps the match booklet could/should state (as a reasonable request from a Range Official) that no shots are to be fired after LAMR and before the start signal. This could then covered under 10.6.2's ...failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official...

...and this may be our best stop-gap measure until the rule can be specifically addressed in the next book...

?

[Neil Beverley]

Without wishing to get involved in the debate itself can I just point out that 10.6.2 applies to "Other persons ............". 10.6.1 is the rule that applies to competitors.

[Jim Norman]

I have been pretty quiet on this subject.

My take is this is a DQ.

The shot did not occur during the COF. It occured during the preparation period before the COF. If the shot occured after the beep no penalty as long as no other rules broken. If the shooter had holtered, the RUR asked and the shooter jumped the gun and claimed he heard a beep from another bay, no penalty, that is covered. What we have here is a shooter that loaded his gun, took a sight picture and pulled the trigger. He should have had the safety on and his finger should not have been on the trigger. Remember, the COF has not started, he is still in the LAMR phase and therefore he is not able to "Engage targets"

DQ

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

But every other rule that we have regarding the COF says that it starts when the RO says LAMR and ends with, Range is clear. It doesn't make sense to change it here. For instance, shooter drops gun before LAMR, no biggie. Shooter drops pulling it out of pistol rug after LAMR, DQ.

Flex, I'm not getting bent out of shape, I wouldn't over a rule question. You mention that a shooter might not get an out if he hits a target while moving? Um, I gotta say if an RO stopped me and DQ'd me because I hit a target but wasn't engaging a target, well I might have a little problem with that.

Everyone seems to be saying, if it's an AD the shooter must go home. We allow AD's in IPSC. I can think of at least a couple instances specifically in the rule book where it spells it out that they're allowed. For example, cranking one into the ground 11 feet in front of you on the draw. The difference in the rule book seems to be if the AD is unsafe, beyond just being an AD.

As far as the shot being deliberate or not. We allow a shooter to take a sight picture, two handed and slowly pull the trigger getting an A zone hit on a 25 yd target. While the shooter didn't intend the gun to be loaded, the act of pulling the trigger was deliberate. As opposed to the typical, for example, AD while loading when the finger has accidental contact with the trigger while seating the magazine.

[SteveZ]

But every other rule that we have regarding the COF says that it starts when the RO says LAMR and ends with, Range is clear.

Small technicality....you got the first part right (COF starts on with the LAMR command 8.3.1) and ends when the shooter removes his hand from the gun once placed back in the holster after the If Clear, Hammer Down phase (8.3.7.3)

Everyone seems to be saying, if it's an AD the shooter must go home. We allow AD's in IPSC. I can think of at least a couple instances specifically in the rule book where it spells it out that they're allowed. For example, cranking one into the ground 11 feet in front of you on the draw. The difference in the rule book seems to be if the AD is unsafe, beyond just being an AD.

That IS an AD under 10.4.2 and if there is a target less than 3 meters and the shooter does it, there's no guarantee that they free of an AD. Key wording of 10.4.2 says "except when shooting at a paper target" .... if the RO deems that the shooter was not "shoot at" the target and the target was less than 3 meters, 10.4.2 would still apply....but the RO had better be 100% certain in his mind that this actually was the case.

[Flexmoney]

We allow AD's in IPSC. I can think of at least a couple instances specifically in the rule book where it spells it out that they're allowed.

You are right there. The difference I believe, is that those are specific instances. They have been vetted and ruled upon.

Um, I gotta say if an RO stopped me and DQ'd me because I hit a target but wasn't engaging a target, well I might have a little problem with that.

The rule there is pretty clear, I think.

[Chuck Anderson]

It is pretty clear and I say if I hit it, I was engaging it.

Steve. I'm confused. 10.4.2 applies to a shot that hits the ground within 9.84 feet. How are you going to DQ someone for a shot that hits the ground 11 feet away? All other rules excluded. Let's just say it's a static shooting position and the shot occurs on the draw. Not an uncommon occurrence. You are right on the end of the course of fire. Still doesn't change the point though.