Loaded Sight Pictures In Uspsa?

[shred]

Why did we change the rule to allow loaded sight pictures?

Who thought that would be a great idea?

It seems the stage starts on LAMR, but we are NOT supposed to shoot until SRSB-beeeeeep!.

If a shooter pops off a round before the RO starts the SRSB call, it should be a DQ. Now lets make a rule to enfore that and be done with this BS

The devil's advocate says; "what if the shooter assumes the start position, but the RO is doing something like shooing a spectator away. Over on the next bay, the RO is going through 'SRSB.. beep', and the shooter starts".

False start or DQ?

You could get the pre-shooter for a proceedural for not following the stage briefing, assuming it says "on signal..."

[ima45dv8]

Shred,

If you were that RO, would you have a reasonable suspicion that the shooter heard something from the next bay, and that you didn't give a start signal?

If so, then reshoot. If not, maybe your plugs are in too deep.

[shred]

Depends on how serious the shooing, and how far the competitor has his electric ears cranked up.. Remember the fun we had a few years ago when a Big Name was DQed at an area match for almost this very thing?

[sargenv]

Ok, initially I started a lot of this by saying if I touched one off I was gone.. What have we decided? I initially thought I'd be DQ'ed under 10.4.3. Now we say that it could be argued that you were not doing any of the above? 10.6.1 could be a legal if arbitrary rule to cite in this case and may cause people to compare it to that other rule in that other sport defined as "failure to do right". Otherwise if there is no DQ penalty for taking a shot before commencement of shooting after the beep goes off, I guess I could agree that it might be a false start and the shooter would be subject to a procedural (firing a shot before the timer goes off if the course description says something like, "at the sound of the timer/buzzer" in the course description). Depending on what the RO rules, 10.6.1 seems like it could apply. I've not seen anyone fire a shot while taking a sight picture during LAMR, but I always assumed doing so would be "really bad" and would get me dq'ed. In a local match I'd probably take it as a sign that my head is not properly seated and I'd be done for the day. At a big match where there is a lot at stake, I could see arbitrating this one and possibly winning due to ambuiguities in the rules. Does anyone want to push their luck at maybe an area match or the nationals?

Does any of this make sense?

Vince

[SteveZ]

Well in a nutshell, if this happened while I was a shooter, I'd probably DQ the shooter under 10.4.3 which says:

"A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7."

and rule that it happened under the "loading" part. In my mind "loading" starts at the LAMR and ends when the gun is holstered prior to the start signal. I think this would probably hold up under arbitration review.

[Bigbadaboom]

Flex argued that he'd DQ someone for having their finger in the trigger guard --- my question was "How does this act --- an aimed shot at a target --- materially differ from a false start as outlined in 8.6.4?

Not picking on you Nik, but this question clarifies a lot of this for me.

If I witnessed an instance of a shot fired during the LAMR routine, I would have serious doubts about it being an "aimed shot" at a target. The shooter may have been deliberately aiming at a target, but I won't ever believe the fired shot was intentional and deliberate unless the shooter announces to me in advance their intent to fire that shot (absurd, yes, but that's what it would take to convince me). In the absence of any evidence of deliberate intention to fire the shot, I could only view that as a shooter not in control of themself or their gun at that moment.

If I'm on the timer, it's my responsibility to ensure the safety of everyone in the vicinity, and my conscience would not permit me to allow a shooter to proceed who had just demonstrated such a serious lack of control. That shooter would find themselves with an immediate match DQ under 10.5 - UGH, and an opportunity to arbitrate if desired.

Gray area? Yes.

Judgement required? Yes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA: Flex, looks like we're in synch on this, but your bots type faster than I can.

An R.O. can't 'decide' what is an accidental discharge. What an accidental discharge is in USPSA is outlined in rule 10.4 and that's it and an aimed shot that penitrates a target rather the shooter intended for it to happen or not cannot be ruled as an accidental discharge per rule 10.4. If an R.O. could call a D.Q. on everything they fealt it was an A.D. then a lot more people would be D.Q.ed. How many of us have had the .55 draw that didn't hit within 3 meters of our feet? The rules are the rules and untill they change an R.O. cannot call an A.D. for a shot which hits a target no matter how much we know that it was an A.D.. With all this said I'ld probably D.Q. and make them arbitrate it just to get them out of the match for a while if nothing else.

[ima45dv8]

An R.O. can't 'decide' what is an accidental discharge. What an accidental discharge is in USPSA is outlined in rule 10.4 and that's it and an aimed shot that penitrates a target rather the shooter intended for it to happen or not cannot be ruled as an accidental discharge per rule 10.4. If an R.O. could call a D.Q. on everything they fealt it was an A.D. then a lot more people would be D.Q.ed. How many of us have had the .55 draw that didn't hit within 3 meters of our feet? The rules are the rules and untill they change an R.O. cannot call an A.D. for a shot which hits a target no matter how much we know that it was an A.D.. With all this said I'ld probably D.Q. and make them arbitrate it just to get them out of the match for a while if nothing else.

I think I must have missed something, Daniel. I didn't say I would 'decide' it was an AD. The rulebook is very clear on what is or isn't an AD, and I don't think it would apply. I cited 10.5 - Unsafe Gun Handling as I believe such an act would be exactly that.

[bgary]

Unsafe Gun Handling as I believe such an act would be exactly that

Is it "unsafe gun handling" because it is unsafe?

Is it "unsafe gun handling" because it conforms to one or several of the examples of UGH listed in the book?

Or... is it "unsafe gun handling" because "I don't like it and I can't find any rule to DQ you with so I'll use that one and let an arb committee sort it out"?

I suspect most of the people advocating a DQ fall into the latter category. Which is the crux of my problem - it pretty much becomes a situation a situation of "making up a DQ rule on the fly", which is one of my pet peeves. I *hate* it when clubs, or ROs, or RMs feel they have the authority to make up rules.

If we have a problem with the rules, lets fix it (BTW, this issue is already under consideration by the RM Instructor cadre, it *will* get fixed). But, please, lets *not* make up rules on the fly.

B

[SteveZ]

If we have a problem with the rules, lets fix it (BTW, this issue is already under consideration by the RM Instructor cadre, it *will* get fixed). But, please, lets *not* make up rules on the fly.

B

I agree Bruce...I hate it when RO's make up rules on the fly to fit their "feeling"...whether it be for DQ situation...or how they interpret the "intent" of how they believe a COF should be shot.

Regarding this particular problem...how about under the definitions section of the rule book, we define the act of "loading" being the point in time between the LAMR command and when the gun is holstered prior to the "are you ready"? That way, if this did happen, it would fall under 10.4.3...and still provide for room for the "false start" problem of a shooter hearing the Are-You-Ready...STBY...beeeeeep in the next bay.

[wgnoyes]

Why did we change the rule to allow loaded sight pictures?

There never was a rule against it, as far as I know.

[ima45dv8]

Unsafe Gun Handling as I believe such an act would be exactly that

Is it "unsafe gun handling" because it is unsafe?

Is it "unsafe gun handling" because it conforms to one or several of the examples of UGH listed in the book?

Or... is it "unsafe gun handling" because "I don't like it and I can't find any rule to DQ you with so I'll use that one and let an arb committee sort it out"?

I suspect most of the people advocating a DQ fall into the latter category. Which is the crux of my problem - it pretty much becomes a situation a situation of "making up a DQ rule on the fly", which is one of my pet peeves. I *hate* it when clubs, or ROs, or RMs feel they have the authority to make up rules.

If we have a problem with the rules, lets fix it (BTW, this issue is already under consideration by the RM Instructor cadre, it *will* get fixed). But, please, lets *not* make up rules on the fly.

B

I've answered this already, Bruce. I don't see this as making up rules on the fly. If having the words, "...include, but are not limited to...." are the problem, someone can petition to have them removed. Until then, I have to use my judgemment in some situations and that means there's a strong chance that not everyone is going to be happy with the results.

It's UGH because that shot was not a deliberate act, unless announced in advance. In that case we might have to 'make up' a penalty for "Stupid Acts Committed With A Recently Loaded Firearm". Or perhaps that's exactly what "...include, but are not limited to..." means.

++++++++++++++

Edited to add: Steve, I like your suggestion except maybe the "load" should be considered as ended when the "Are You Ready?" conmmand is given. If we say it's ended when the gun is holstered, someone could take the gun back out of the holster, light one off and say they didn't do it while loading ('cause they had already holstered the gun). If the "Load" phase ends with "AYR?" it would cover that, too.

And I also don't like having ROs try to interpret how they think a CoF should be shot. That's what the Written Stage Briefing is for.

Edited August 10, 2006 by ima45dv8

[sargenv]

I think my initial reason for thinking that I'd be dq'ed for letting loose a shot during the loading process and while taking a sight picture was defined under the ""...include, but are not limited to..." part of that rule. It's not an arbitraray made up rule left up to the RO, but is defined as such in that portion of the rules. Sometimes the judgement of the RO has to come into play. I can prety much guarantee that if it was a surprise to the shooter and the RO, it was unintended and could be considered unsafe gun handling. That was my original thought above.

Have I ever done something like this? No.. Do I take loaded sight pictures? If I do it would be with an open gun to check my dot or possibly with a rifle or shotgun to make sure my optics are good. Do I keep the safety on and my finger off the trigger, yes I do.

Vince

[Bigbadaboom]

I see unsafe gun handling as something totally different than an A.D. and, appearantly, so does USPSA since the gun going bang is not mentioned one single time under 10.5. Handling of the gun is maintaining the direction in which the muzzle is pointing and what is going to be shot if the gun goes off. If I'm aiming at a target and drill the "A" zone because I prepped the trigger a little too much it doesn't mean that I'm fumble fingering the gun. It just means I'm an Idiot for prepping the trigger too much but at least I handled the gun safely and the round went into the target I was aiming at.

[Flexmoney]

Gun handling is more than just having the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Having a shot go off unexpected isn't all that safe...no matter where the gun is pointed. Does anybody disagree with that??

Sure, somebody will bring up the 3m rule for the draw, or getting on the trigger a bit soon when actually (really) engaging targets. But, those particular issues have been covered. They are already addressed in the rulebook and a line in the sand has been drawn.

Bruce, I know the rulebook as well as many, but I don't have it memorized. Something like this is clearly a safety infraction. I'd call the DQ and then look to see what part of the rulebook it falls under (which is exactly what happens anytime anybody gets a DQ for any reason...we call it, then look up the rules to write it up).

We aren't making up rules...which I hate as well...we are looking up the rules that fit the situation after the call has been made. What you are suggestion, and you might be right, is that the shooter may have a loophole to get back in the match. Clearly, that needs to be addressed in the next tweaking of the rulebook.

[BlackSabbath]

The inadvertent start applies to a shooter who may hear a start signal from another range and start shooting. In this case no harm-no foul. That is different than lighting one off before your start signal due to brain fade.

Gary

Good point. I'd never thought of it that way.

[BlackSabbath]

I'm glad I started this thread; I've learned alot. Thanks all.

I don't know how it would come out at arb if someone fired a round off wile taking a sight picture.

Common sense would tell me the rule should read like this:

Yes...you can take a loaded sight picture...But...If you fire a round while you do it without a "mystery beep" from another bay, you're out of the match. Take off your gun, put a smile on your face, and put a box of pasters in your hand.

Edited August 11, 2006 by BlackSabbath

[herky]

+1, but I think you meant "loaded" sight picture.

[Gary Johnson]

I like to debate the 'what-ifs' as much as the next guy but I don't see a lot of wiggle room here. Except for the case where a shooter responds to a beep from another stage this is fairly cut and dried.

The rules say you will be disqualified if you do something unsafe. It gives examples of unsafe conduct but the examples are neither comprehensive nor exhaustive.

It is an accepted rule of safe gun handling that you don't touch the trigger until you are ready to fire. Doing so is unsafe even if the rules don't specifically list this as an unsafe act.

You are not allowed to, and therefore can not be ready to fire until the RO pushes the button.

An 'unexpected' shot that happens after the beep can be justified by calling it an unaimed (or poorly aimed) shot. It becomes a judgement call for the RO and possibly the arbitration committee.

Any shot fired before the beep happens for one of two reasons: you failed to maintain proper trigger discipline (10.5) or you cheated (10.6). Either way, the match is over for you.

[BlackSabbath]

+1, but I think you meant "loaded" sight picture.

You sir, are correct...

Edited....

Thanks.

[Precision40]

Kind of hard to prove a false start "AD" without the "Are you Ready" command even being given. You simply can't load the gun and start shooting. Come on folks.

Doesn't some responsibility lie with the shooter as well? Isn't it the shooters responsibility to pay attention to the RO and their commands? I'd give a DQ and let the RM and the boys fight over it If they can prove it was indeed a false-start, then all power to em, personally I think theres not an RM out there that would overturn this sort of DQ.

[Chuck Anderson]

There have also been times where I've seen an RO DQ someone (stop them during the course of fire and tell them they're out) only to check the rule book or talk with the RM and realize that it's not really a DQ. Most recently at the Multi Gun Nats. A shooter basically finished and AD while moving the gun out of the port. Safe direction, no other issues, wasn't during unloading yet. RO initially DQ'd. RM brought up that it really wasn't an unsafe AD (and yes as a firearms instructor I realize the contradiction). The shooter was willing to take whatever he got and assumed he was DQ'd.

There are lots of times when shots are fired unintentionally but are not unsafe. Tripping that third round on a target because the trigger is bouncing is one. While I agree that it is unintentional or accidental, a shot into the target, during the course of fire (which begins with LAMR)?? I'd have a hard time accepting a DQ for this.

I also hate the attitude of, DQ them and let'em arbitrate it. If you think they've got an out with an Arb committee, why are we doing the DQ. I'm not talking about the craps game that Arb Committee's are, but a legit reason they shouldn't be DQ'd? What about the shooters that didn't bring $100.00 cash to the match with them. I know I normally don't, regardless of the match size. Or if I do it's gone after the first trip to the vendor's tent.

As far as allowing loaded sight pictures. We have a couple shooters who do it. Almost exclusively they are primarily steel shooters who shoot some IPSC. They do it to get the weight of the loaded gun before the draw.

I normally only do it while shooting MG. I've had twice where I started the stage with my shotgun only to find the rear sight missing. We had a couple shooters who forgot to remove scope covers at the MG as well. Probably a good idea to take one in this case. Although I did get yelled at for it on my first stage of the 2005 MG Nats.

[bgary]

I also hate the attitude of, DQ them and let'em arbitrate it.

+1,000,000

Bruce

[Precision40]

I also hate the attitude of, DQ them and let'em arbitrate it. If you think they've got an out with an Arb committee, why are we doing the DQ. I'm not talking about the craps game that Arb Committee's are, but a legit reason they shouldn't be DQ'd? What about the shooters that didn't bring $100.00 cash to the match with them. I know I normally don't, regardless of the match size. Or if I do it's gone after the first trip to the vendor's tent.

+1

However, not bringing $100 to a match is no excuse not to DQ someone. Most DQ's are cut-and-dry, this situation isn't and I could see where it could either go one way or another. One things for sure though if you don't arbitrate it, you day IS done.

[R112mercer]

Just one point on loaded sight pictures: A friend of mine is an Open shooter who has incorporated a loaded sight picture into his LAMR routine. After being given the LAMR and turning his dot on he holsters and performs a draw just like he would after the beep, dryfires once and continues to move the gun to the next series of targets he would engage, performs a reload (with a barney mag) like he would under the clock, and then takes another sight picture.

Many a time at a major match I've seen RO's who aren't as familiar with the rulebook as they should be reprimand my friend for this routine. This of course completely screws with my friends concentration as he not only has to show the RO the applicable rule (lest he be unfairly DQ'ed) and also calls into question the ability of the RO when it comes to other rules interpretations. If an RO is willing to b#tch out a shooter over a rule that doesn't apply to USPSA, what other score (or match) affecting interpretations of the rules is the RO going to make?

[SteveZ]

If an RO is willing to b#tch out a shooter over a rule that doesn't apply to USPSA, what other score (or match) affecting interpretations of the rules is the RO going to make?

let me guess....trying to assess more then 2 hits on a no-shoot penalty target? I've seen that happen numerous times!