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Loaded Sight Pictures In Uspsa?


BlackSabbath

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This has to have been covered before.... :blink:

Can someone elighten me on the USPSA ruling?

Thanks in advance.

I used the search function of Acrobat ;) and found the following:

"8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match."

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"8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match."

US8.7.1 N/A

USPSA competors can take a loaded sight picture, if the RO allows it.

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Loaded sight pictures are permitted in USPSA. The RO can't disallow it--NA means that the rule does not apply, and there are no prohibitions for the RO to either allow or disallow a loaded sight picture.

Troy

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"8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match."

US8.7.1 N/A

USPSA competors can take a loaded sight picture, if the RO allows it.

Sorry guys, I didn't read far enough :(

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Rulebook aside (I understand the difference between the IPSC rule and the USPSA override and am glad it's there), what are people's preferences on cold sight picture v. loaded and why? My practice has always been on the LAMR command to draw and take a single, cold, hammer-down no-magazine sight picture mainly to verify the dot is on, although one can also easily look at their holstered gun and see the dot is on. Some people rack the slide and take a dry-fire or two, but I don't as I don't want to slow down progress of the stage. So I guess the question is why would anyone chamber a round and then take the sight pic? Gotta be a reason, I guess. Thanks.

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I figure it is for those people who may have been bitten by the "I turned my dot on, checked it, it was on, loaded the gun and holstered.. and when I drew after the buzzer I found that racking the slide killed my dot". I've personally had unreliable equipment on my open gun prior to finally buying an OKO and had to tell the RO to run someone else as I was having gun issues.

Another competitor has given the following comment. "If you're going to trust me to run around after the buzzer with a loaded gun and shooting at targets while I move around, how is taking a sight picture with a loaded gun any less safe? If I set one off, I'm gone anyway".

Vince

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Here's a related question: folklore has it that you can not move from the starting position after loading the gun. Fact of Fiction? Would this fall under (possibly) US 8.7.5?

Later,

Chuck

PS: I have seen people do a loaded sight pic mostly due to nerves where they forgot to do one prior to loading. I like to start the LAMR process with a draw that the stage requires. I have found some interesting things doing this like remembering to turn the hat around because of viz through a low port :huh: .

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Taking a loaded sight picture in USPSA multigun is fairly common. To save time preloading is a common practice and to some taking that sight picture is a part of their mental or physical process in getting ready for the stage. So they take that sight picture with the gun (usually a long gun) loaded.

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Here's a related question: folklore has it that you can not move from the starting position after loading the gun. Fact of Fiction? Would this fall under (possibly) US 8.7.5?

Later,

Chuck

PS: I have seen people do a loaded sight pic mostly due to nerves where they forgot to do one prior to loading. I like to start the LAMR process with a draw that the stage requires. I have found some interesting things doing this like remembering to turn the hat around because of viz through a low port :huh: .

Chuck,

US8.7.5 more readily applies to competitors who show up at a match early and want to inspect the stages.

As far as moving away from the start position after LAMR has been issued, see US8.3.1.1

It can be done, but only with the prior approval, and under the direct supervision of the Range officer.

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So I guess the question is why would anyone chamber a round and then take the sight pic? Gotta be a reason, I guess. Thanks.

Here's another way of looking at it. Often times many shooters (after the LAMR) will draw, do a dry fire/sight picture sweep of the targets.....grab their loaded barney mag from their belt (because the stage requires a reload) and do it again.

According to the rule book...placing a loaded magazine in a gun is considered having a "loaded gun". Hence, you're now taking a "loaded sight picture" by definition of USPSA rules.

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If I set one off, I'm gone anyway".

Vince

Not necessarily. If you are taking an aimed sight picture at a target then the following would apply, I believe.

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely (“false start”), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

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This is good to know...I don't normally take a site picture, but a major match this summer, was concerned about a stage that involved some SHO/WHO strings.

I drew and took my regular grip, and aimed at the target (which was straight ahead), then dismounted the gun, inserted the mag, and racked the slide. Then it occured to take one more sight picture, with a SHO grip, before returning the pistol to the holster. As I did, the RO jumped all over me, threatening a DQ if I did it again. I mean really yelled, so much so that a spectator afterwards commented, "WTF was THAT all about?"

Not a good mind-set to start a stage, and doesn't help much in not having been in the wrong (the more important lesson is learning how not to let distractions rattle ya', regardless)...but this is interesting to know.

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If I set one off, I'm gone anyway".

Vince

Not necessarily. If you are taking an aimed sight picture at a target then the following would apply, I believe.

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely (“false start”), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

That would probably fall under 10.4.3:

"A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7."

I don't think it would get a free pass as a flase start if the start signal hasn't been given.

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I use fixed iron sights. I just assume they are still on the gun and I don't bother talking sight pictures unless I expect to start with a really tricky first shot. That said, I used to get freaked by loaded sight pictures, now I don't care.

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That would probably fall under 10.4.3:

"A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7."

I'm not so sure. From the rule book:

Loading -- The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading -- Replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading -- Removal of ammunition from a firearm.

For sake of this discussion...when does "loading" end? My guess is once the magazine is completely seated and a round is chambered...the "loading" process has ended. So firing a round while taking a sight picture wouldn't be covered by 10.4.3. .... unless "loading" is interpreted to be much longer.

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The inadvertent start applies to a shooter who may hear a start signal from another range and start shooting. In this case no harm-no foul. That is different than lighting one off before your start signal due to brain fade.

Gary

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The inadvertent start applies to a shooter who may hear a start signal from another range and start shooting. In this case no harm-no foul. That is different than lighting one off before your start signal due to brain fade.

Gary

I agree with you, Gary. If you were holding the clock and it happened, what rule would you cite to support the DQ?

AD during loading, or UGH?

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I would use the provision of 10.5 "Unsafe Gun Handling" and spell out what the shooter did in detail. After that it is up to the ARB Committee.

If they said that was not unsafe, I guess everyone would be allowed a few practice shots prior to the start signal.

Gary

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I like the idea of allowing a loaded sight picture. Not necessarily taking one, but being allowed to.

If I shoot my open gun, I may load and holster, then realize than unlike my limited gun, i have to turn on the dot and there is the intensity setting to consider. In IPSC, I suppose i'd have to ULSC, take the picture and then load again, in USPSA, I can just do it.

There is no reason not to be allowed, just as there is virtually no reason to need to do it. So why not keep the exception?

Jim

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If I set one off, I'm gone anyway".

Vince

Not necessarily. If you are taking an aimed sight picture at a target then the following would apply, I believe.

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely (“false start”), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

I don't believe that firing before the "Are you ready?", "Standby", [sTART SIGNAL] falls under 8.6.4.

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