Faster To Shoot To Slidelock Or Reload W/retention?

[bdo]

Don't shoot IDPA but matbe 2 times a year, but why would anyone want to store away a empty mag on a reload with a rd. left in the chamber? It does you no good & makes no common sense or logic, just takes you longer. What am I missing here?

That's what I never understood. An empty mag is a paperweight.

[Jim Watson]

It is an administrative rule to keep you from counting shots and doing a speed reload with magazine empty and chamber loaded. It is IDPA philosophy that you cannot do that under fire so it isn't "tactical" and is not allowed. No matter what Jeff Cooper said.

[Larry White]

I thought maybe it fell under the same rule that said you had to crouch over and tippy toe from cover to cover, peep out and threat scan before you could shoot.------Larry

[Crusher]

I thought maybe it fell under the same rule that said you had to crouch over and tippy toe from cover to cover, peep out and threat scan before you could shoot

That's the "PINK PANTHER" I"ve witnessed it, when you catch it done you must hum the theme song too, make for great video.

[simonsay]

What about cover? I see more inconsistant calls on this than any other. There are some obious calls, but without instant replay, there's a whole lotta gray area. Could be all but eliminated with a box or fault line but that would be too IPSC'ey.

How do you figure? The cover rule was explained to me to be 100% of the lower body (belt level and below) and 50% of the upper body. If you put a box behind a barricade I agree it would keep my feet behind cover but I could still lean out far enough to get dinged.

Bruce

Not attempting to drift but putting a number/percentage on the human anatomy is at the very least subjective. How do you calculate %50 of the upper body while it is at an unnatural angle.

When a fast shooter arrives at a barricade and pops two quick shots at the outside target, while slicing the pie, the rules are asking the so to watch too many things for the brain to comprehend. As screwed up as baseball can be at times, they know the first base ump needs to watch one thing, the base, and listen for the catch.

What makes it laughable is that it's ok to stick the entire head out from behind cover but not the pinkie toe. Don't get me started on round dumping. First thing I learned at my first sanctioned match was to tape, ask questions, and be real polite.

Edited July 28, 2006 by simonsay

[Larry White]

I thought maybe it fell under the same rule that said you had to crouch over and tippy toe from cover to cover, peep out and threat scan before you could shoot

That's the "PINK PANTHER" I"ve witnessed it, when you catch it done you must hum the theme song too, make for great video.

My pc kinda bled out the pink words and I thought you said pink panties, which kind of fit cause every IDPA match I ever went to someone had thier panties in a bunch about something or other.-------Larry

[RifleShooter]

I always thought the Tactical Reload was too difficult for the average shooter until I learned a technique this spring. It was one of those "DUH" moments. With this technique, it makes it simple even with short fingers and double stack mags.

1. Pull the magazine out with the index along the front of the mag, thumb on one side and middle finger on the other - just like any reload.

2. When you bring the magazine forward, slide the index finger to the side with the thumb.

3. Use the thumb and forefinger to pull the mag out of the gun, rotate slightly and seat the fresh mag.

4. Stow the used mag while you're moving to the next shooting position.

I know a lot of folks probably use this technique already, but it had never dawned on me on how easy the Tac Reload really is.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry! I saw someone do a Tac Reload on a video, and it looked ackward at best. I just tried your technique, and while it is not completely comfortable yet, I can see how it is supposed to work, and it is SO much better than what I had tried previously! Now I just have to practice it to the point that I don't have to think about it. Thanks!

Arnie

[Crusher]

FWIW there is a more efficient way (from a time standpoint when it is necessary to move from cover to cover) than outlined above.

Remember as per IDPA rules:

All reloads begin with the shooter’s first action to initiate the

reload (ejection of the magazine, drawing a spare magazine,

etc.) and end when the weapon is fully charged and ready to

fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully

forward or cylinder closed). Reloads can only be initiated

while behind cover.

Slight variation of the outlined retention reload. If the competitor is to first remove the partial mag from the gun, then go directly to the spare mag, insert this spare) mag into the gun, seat, he/she can move and stow on the go, and it saves the time in retrieving the fresh mag first which adds one more motion to complete the same action. This applies to moving from cover to cover where additional rounds (more than what renains in the gun) are needed.*

For reloads preformed entirely behind cover ( shooting from one side of a barricade/wall/port) where two or more steps are required a retention reload preformed by removing the mag from the handgun,stowing the partial (in a pants pocket) and retrieving a fresh mag and seating is the most efficient.*

*Actual times may vary depending on the skill level of the competitor.

[kdmoore]

Don't shoot IDPA but matbe 2 times a year, but why would anyone want to store away a empty mag on a reload with a rd. left in the chamber? It does you no good & makes no common sense or logic, just takes you longer. What am I missing here?

Benny,

Here's my take on this rule, others may differ.

Retaining an empty mag, even one that's almost empty isn't seen as being "tactical" by anyone. So why does the sport require it?

To answer the question, I imagine where IDPA would be without the rule. It would certainly be more like IPSC, but with fewer mags. Explicitly this means more emphasis on round counting than there currently is in IDPA. And there'd be very few slidelock reloads.

In USPSA, rounds are considered limitless, so you reload where it is most advantageous. In order to emphasize the limited num of mags/rounds availabel to shooters,

So short answer is ... it emphasizes slidelock reloads / deemphasizes round counting. This is to more align with expectations of what RW use of force would be like?

In fact, to me, this is the Only explanation for requiring an empty mag to be stored if there's still one in the pipe.

ETW...

BTW, I think that the new direction deemphasizing RWR in a match are a step in the right direction. Matches should rarely require them on the clock. Still are available for use at shooter's discretion.

I'd like to see them removed from the classifier, but I think that would be a logistical nightmare......

Edited July 30, 2006 by kdmoore

[Joe D]

I can't decide which rule is more ridiculous - dumping rounds FTDR or having to retain an empty mag.

[revchuck]

Don't shoot IDPA but matbe 2 times a year, but why would anyone want to store away a empty mag on a reload with a rd. left in the chamber? It does you no good & makes no common sense or logic, just takes you longer. What am I missing here?

Benny - There are three legal reloads in IDPA. One is slidelock and the other two aren't. If you're not doing a slidelock reload, you have to retain the mag, regardless of whether there's ammo in it. It makes it easier to officiate, for one thing, and IMHO distances IDPA from IPSC, for another.

If I were king, I'd drop the requirement to retain ammo, but keep the limitations on how many spare mags you can carry. If you're trying to be cool and execute speed reloads in such a way as to run out of ammo before you run out of targets, xin loi; you get to eat the FTNs and FTEs.

[boo radley]

If I were king, I'd drop the requirement to retain ammo, but keep the limitations on how many spare mags you can carry. If you're trying to be cool and execute speed reloads in such a way as to run out of ammo before you run out of targets, xin loi; you get to eat the FTNs and FTEs.

Good idea! Allow just *one* spare magazine, and drop all the rules related to reloading and round dumping. Let it work itself out on the stages.

I never really understood the antipathy towards counting rounds, either. The disclaimer is always, "Well, in a real world scenario blah blah, the shooter wouldn't count rounds." Well...who's to say the shooter didn't have a lot of IPSC experience? <grin> Why is that any less of a skill than pocketing partially-filled (or empty) magazines?

And, of course, if we're going to go down the avenue of "precedents set from actual shootings," there won't be much of a game.

[ArnisAndyz]

If I were king, I'd drop the requirement to retain ammo, but keep the limitations on how many spare mags you can carry. If you're trying to be cool and execute speed reloads in such a way as to run out of ammo before you run out of targets, xin loi; you get to eat the FTNs and FTEs.

revchuck for king! I like this idea, it sets limitations but also allows for an amount of creativity and built in consequences, rather than leaving it up to the RO to call a FTDR. If you dump rounds or have some rounds left in your mag when you dump it, you may not have enough to finish the stage, but then again, you might. I see this as more "real world" than making poeple just follow the rules because they exist. Problems that might crop up under this way of doing it...how many extra mags can you carry? Stage designs might start centering around "tricking" the shooter into reloading mistakes rather than just making good stages. How do you deal with the different capacity limits per division?

[GmanCdp]

I can't decide which rule is more ridiculous - dumping rounds FTDR or having to retain an empty mag

maybe that would make a good poll question...

[revchuck]

Problems that might crop up under this way of doing it...how many extra mags can you carry? Stage designs might start centering around "tricking" the shooter into reloading mistakes rather than just making good stages. How do you deal with the different capacity limits per division?

Current rules allow two spare mags for bottomfeeders, and three speedloaders/moonclips for revolver. No need to change this; it isn't like USPSA Production where you have to shoot the same 32+ round CoFs as Open shooters. IDPA permits a max of 18 scored shots.

Stage design has always been the most important factor in a good match. If stage design starts to center on "tricking" the shooter, lynch the stage designer and throw out the stages. We shoot to enjoy the challenge of a good stage, practice shooting and gun handling skills that may come in handy if we ever need to use them for real, and hang out with cool folks. Snidely Whiplash need not apply.

Given that there is a limit of 18 rounds per stage, even folks shooting G36s and Officer's ACPs (seven in the gun and two six round spare mags) can do it. If they choose to shoot such weapons in a match, they'll probably be prepared to deal with whatever challenges they'll face, or suck it up. Shoot, revolver shooters have been dealing with it since '96 in IPDA. We're scored by division, so it'll be reasonably even within that division. Having said that, it's true that a shooter with a Kahr P9 will have a harder time staying up with another shooter using a G34 in SSP. The flip side of that is that the shooter with the Kahr is probably using his carry gun, and there are non-competitive advantages that accrue through that. This all goes back to the shooter's motivation for shooting IDPA in the first place.

This went way longer than I planned. In (finally!) closing, remember that this discussion occurs far more often on forums than at matches. At matches, we're usually too busy shooting and visiting to fuss about this stuff.

[Steve Moneypenny]

From a standpoint of a competitor who likes to win. This will all depend on distance of travel, cover, and your ability to do a reload first off a tac load makes much more sence than a RWR espeically in a single stack CDP gun.

IF you dump a round and get caught your in deep doo doo as some SO's are nazi's on that. make sure you don't throw that round into the -0 I really think it's a bad rule because i know top masters who you cannot tell the difference in making up shots and round dumping.

[GmanCdp]

IF you dump a round and get caught your in deep doo doo as some SO's are nazi's on that. make sure you don't throw that round into the -0 I really think it's a bad rule because i know top masters who you cannot tell the difference in making up shots and round dumping.

VERY VERY GOOD POINT which that you might are saying,is a good thing,.....because it's a game?? ever SO a major state match where you have 5 or 6 CDP shooters in the same squad??? watch it some time.....i know that they say that the ESP division is the "thinking mans gun",but if you ever watch a good CDP shooter that has some room inbetween arays...then they can also keep up with the ESP/SSP group...and then some times the ESR/SSR will out run all of the divisons ....see, this is what makes this such a great sport USPSA/IDPA,where a shooter is made to THINK on how to approach and define on how to shoot a COF it/to their best ability....and thats from MM to MA...

[dcloudy777]

RevChuck is RIGHT ON!!! Let the round count on longer stages creep up a little, so the allowed amount of carry ammo is closer to what a shooter actually needs to finish the stage, and let the reloads fall where they may. You wanna dump a mag with 5 rounds left in it? Fine, but don't miss the remaining targets, 'cause you just dumped your make-up shots on the deck. IMHO, the only way to make the RWR a "real" part of the game is to make a stage require the rounds you save be shot before the end of the stage. If you don't need them, why save them?

DanO

[boo radley]

[much deleted]

...This all goes back to the shooter's motivation for shooting IDPA in the first place.

Which is the genesis of the schism.

This went way longer than I planned. In (finally!) closing, remember that this discussion occurs far more often on forums than at matches. At matches, we're usually too busy shooting and visiting to fuss about this stuff.

I've come to the conclusion that these discussions always end up, at best, like calling someone's children ugly.

[Chills1994]

So to basically summarize this whole thread, for those folks who don't want to read all three pages of responses is:

1. Round dumping happens

2. If you are going to round dump, don't be stupid about it:

a. don't talk about it beforehand

b. don't make up a down zero hit, with another down zero hit especially on the last

target in the array.

3. Most SO's probably won't give out an FTDR for taking a dump, because they aren't

mind readers.

4. Most people here would agree that round dumping = an FTDR and retaining an empty

mag while one is in the pipe are the two stupidest rules in IDPA.

5. We have several new acronyms for IDPA:

a. TADS = Taking a Dump Syndrome

b. RDSL (pronounced Are Diesel) = Round Dumping to Slide Lock

c. SONOFA (pronounced like son of a ....) = Safety Officer is a Nazi or Facist

Authoritarian

d. There are few others, if you're interested read through the entire thread

6. We all agree here that we are all spinning our collective wheels discussing

this topic on an internet forum.

7. We would all be better off right now busting a few hundred caps at the range than

mashing the keyboard on this topic.

8. If you practice it, the tac reload is faster than a RWR. It might be worthwhile to go that

route than trying to RDSL.

9. Some here would say let us do IPSC style speed reloads but we start out with the same

amount of mags or fewer. If we run out of bullets/mags, before we finish the stage

then let us get severely penalized by the down -10's and the FTNs.

Did I miss anything here?

I have a new acronym for you all:

RAEMIG (pronounced ram ig) = retaining an empty mag is gay

So just to set everyone straight on this, I am:

anti-TADS

pro-RDSL

anti-SONOFA

and pro-RAEMIG

"Click on my website for pro-RAEMIG t-shirts. They should be available just in time for Nationals this year. Also, stay tuned for my anti-SONOFA buttons, the perfect addition to your concealment vest."

[benny hill]

cut it back some.NOW I know why I shoot 2 matches a year, may

[ipscbob]

Wow! Been following this one a bit. IDPA is way too much like government for my taste.......Too many rules whose sole purpose is to prevent me from breaking others .

Edited August 2, 2006 by ipscbob

[RickB]

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

No you do not. According to the rule book;

Yes, you do have to continue to use cover during your reload, you just do not have to move completely behind cover to reload.

[steel1212]

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

No you do not. According to the rule book;

Yes, you do have to continue to use cover during your reload, you just do not have to move completely behind cover to reload.

Stage has you sitting on a bench and has you jump up and run to a barrel and shoot 4 targets. Then, go from there and walk/run to a line shooting 4 more targets at the same time. If I only have 8+1, I shoot the first 4 targets move from cover to engage the final 4 and of course as I'm moving and fire my first shot I go to slide lock. In this situation I can just drop the mag insert another and keep going correct?

[revchuck]

Stage has you sitting on a bench and has you jump up and run to a barrel and shoot 4 targets. Then, go from there and walk/run to a line shooting 4 more targets at the same time. If I only have 8+1, I shoot the first 4 targets move from cover to engage the final 4 and of course as I'm moving and fire my first shot I go to slide lock. In this situation I can just drop the mag insert another and keep going correct?

If the CoF requires you to engage each target with at least two rounds, it's poor stage design. I'm guessing that the stage designer wanted to force a TR/RWR here, and as so often happens, doesn't know that revolvers can't shoot eight rounds without reloading. The concept is that you wouldn't leave cover with only one round in the gun. You're required to reload behind cover if it's available, and it's available here. Besides, you'd probably save time doing the TR/RWR over the slide lock in this case.

During the walk through, MAKE the SO clarify whether you can reload while moving from P1 to P2. Don't be hard on the guy/gal, since SOs usually aren't the ones who designed the stage, just make sure you get a "yes" or "no".