Faster To Shoot To Slidelock Or Reload W/retention?

[Chills1994]

+1 to what Morphire said.

As far as what rvb said, well...at least he admits to being an A-hole, on the forum anyway.

Hopefully, his fellow shooters in the Virginia area have figured that out for themselves and can avoid him.

Yep, as an SO/RO you are a ref/safety guy. What colors do ref's usually wear? And that's how you should RO/SO the stage. Stop with the comments and "editorializing" just to rattle someone's cage.

I wonder how many Virginia area shooters could get together and petition HQ to have rvb removed as an SO for being such a self-admitted anus.

Now getting back to AndyArniz's original question: If you are going to

RDSL (a new acronym pronounced are-diesel, stands for round dumping to slide lock), yep don't do it on the last target in an array, don't make up a zero hit.

That would be too obvious.

I would say that in living up to the spirit of IDPA you shouldn't do it at all. Some here have said to do it on the first target in an array.

But what if your gun jams sometime after the first target and before the end of the array? You TRB and jack out the one round you need to complete the array, and you'll have to reload to finish it off before moving on. And possibly reload again in the middle of the next array.

Remember, Murphy's Law and the best laid plans.....that and the cosmic Karma you are making for yourself by trying to skirt the spirit of the rules. There's a godsmack waiting to happen for anyone who does that on a regular basis.

Maybe you should only RDSL if you are 100% confident in your gun.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....the motivation to RDSL wouldn't be there if the IDPA rules didn't force you to stow an empty mag while one was in the pipe.

Maybe it should be up to the scorekeeper to check the dropped mags to see if they are empty or not. A round/rounds left in the dropped mags = a PE.

This same topic was brought up by yours truly on Dec 7, 2005. Here's the link:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=30268&hl=

That thread got 88 replies and 2,460 views untill it got locked. Like someone posted earlier it is a bare nerve topic in IDPA.

I hope you review it for yourself AndyArniz.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Chills1994

[rvb]

"As far as what rvb said, well...at least he admits to being an A-hole, on the forum anyway. . . . avoid him."

Since people like to pick-out what they want for reference quotes, I'll mention I did state "only once or twice EVER... " over many years of so'ing have I done this. Some time the cheaters (round dumpers) are freakin obvious, especially when they cant keep their mouths shut about it before they shoot. Electronic muffs can pick up people saying "Gee, if I put 3 rounds in that target I'll be at SL and can save a lot of time on the second array of targets" or something similar. Is there something wrong with letting people know that you know they are cheating, and it will not be tollerated? I COULD have given FTDRs in those cases and made it stick. I made the comment about myself being an a-hole, but it was supposed to be an attempt to keep the thread light-hearted (humor doesn't always convey over the www). If calling people out on cheating makes me an A-hole, then what does that make the cheaters?

If you ask around here, I think [hope] you'll hear the exact oposite about my reputation...

Don't like the rules? Tough. Don't play the game. Or cheat. But don't whine if people call you out on it if you do.

Pick any other sport on the planet... football? baseball? soccer? Think the refs don't comment to the players "I see that kind of play again and you'll get a [penalty/card/etc]". Think is has the same effect on the player's play as me saying to a shooter "boy that looked round dumping to me." As ROs you've never told someone what they were doing was against the rules and that you could ding them for it (not some newbie who didn't know, but someone who DID know better)? I would wager I'm what I'm saying is no different than how 90% of you all would RO in similar circumstances (the other 10% being those who'd FTDR). I'm 100% sure it didn't come accross right on the www. This is why I like to lurk.

Keep it in perspective, people. I have nothing more to add.

rvb

Edited July 23, 2006 by rvb

[shred]

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[Chills1994]

well, rvb if you have your electronic ear muffs cranked up enough to hear shooter X say that before shooting the stage, you could:

1. Inform the whole squad that you have electronic ear muffs and that you can hear everything they say.

2. Inform Shooter X prior to shooting the stage that if he does in fact shoot it the way you over heard it, you will ding him with a FTDR.

3. Again inform the whole squad, that round dumping (on the first array) will not be tolerated while at the same time conceding that you are not a mind reader, BUT and that's a big BUT if you suspect RDSL, you will ding a shooter with a FTDR ( or a PE), especially if you blab your mouth off about it beforehand.

4. Or heck, not say anything at all, and ding Shooter X after he finishes the stage. "Yep, I'm giving you an FTDR because you talked about RDSL before shooting it."

That certainly would seem proactive/preemptive enough. And if you, Mr. rvb, like to rattle somebody's mental game, choice # 2 would be ideal especially as Shooter X steps up to the line. Having to change your "plan" while you're at the line produces enough jitters.

And my apologies to you Mr. rvb if I seemed overly harsh in my response. Yep, you're right I don't know you from Adam. And you may in fact have a good rep with the VA area shooters.

When I read the word "A-hole" in your post, I interpreted that as "I'm not necessarily a range nazi, but I do like to screw with people's heads to screw with their game, rather than give out penalties."

At a local match, RDSL may not be that big of a deal. But at a major match, especially one lasting 2 or more days, where the SO's get together at the end of the first day or even at lunch, word gets around, "Shooters P, D, and Q really gamed my stage today, how about yours?"

PM sent Mr. Shred.

[ArnisAndyz]

Thanks for the old link on this Chills...its like deja vu! I read through the entire thread. I think I'm starting to see a pattern. Alot of ROs won't call it. They have there own opinions about the rule and they need to make a subjective decision. I'm guessing because 20 secs is pretty much a match ending penalty and most ROs are nice guys they might give a warning. Now if ROs aren't enforcing it, people might enterpret that as it being OK to dump rounds (like I said earlier..."when in Rome"). So...why doesn't HQ make it a 3 second procedural instead? 3 seconds would be enough to take away the speed advantage vs RWR. If its ALWAYS called people will start figuring out it would be better to develop thier RWR than take a 3 second hit every time. ROs will be more likely to call it, if its called more, people will get the idea that they shouldn't do it. Problem solved. I think dumping rounds fits better with, not using cover, not moving when told to move, and air gunning, etc anyways, no? Although, it doesnt really solve the conflict with Vickers count.

Edited July 24, 2006 by ArnisAndyz

[Crusher]

it doesnt really solve the conflict with Vickers count.

No it does not, additionaly it does not solve the problem of those who strive to call all of their shots and when their feedback indicates an questionable shot they make it up regardless of where that shot happens to fall on specific shot within a specific location on a stage.

Like I said before I (and others) will make up any shot we believe to be questionable regardless of where it actually stikes a target, sometimes I find myself making up -0 hits simply because the feedback I recieve while shooting indicates I was unsure of the hit.

How can anyone PROVE round dumping in such cases?

[JD40]

Sometimes there's more to RO'ing than black and white.

Funny. And here I thought the RO was interested in making sure the rules were followed and that the shooter was safe. If you are gonna call it, then call it., If you aren't, then let it go and get on to the next shooter. I guess I just disagree with your tactics on this one. The RO isn't in the business of getting a shooter "flustered" as far as I'm concerned.

+1

The only real complants I hear from other IDPA shooters and that have experinced myself are inconsistant RO's. Some RO's will you ding for taking a dump, other will let it go. Since IDPA is shot for fun "ONLY" there should be no trophies or prize table. Then we would not have to worry about how other shooters shot the stage.

[f250sd]

only do a RWR if it can be done on the move, otherwise shoot to slide lock.

Also, fire your makeup shot in the beginning or the middle of the array, don't shoot the make up shot as your final round putting you to slide lock. Its more Tactical that way.

[tnpyeron3]

You could shoot like me and never have your slide lock back (thumb on slide catch) , so it's always a guess (I never count shots). Besides, I'm an average shooter, I don't think it would benefit me to shoot an extra round for an advantage.

But seriously, I shot the PA state match this past weekend (wonderful match) and I was on a squad with some very good masters. I do believe that I saw them do more RWR/TR than slide lock reloads. I am sure they did it because of the wet and muddy ground, but it didn't hurt their times.

Also, these are guys that shoot fast enough that an average SO might not be able to count the shots fired and not realize that they shot 3 at a target instead of 2 to come to slidelock. Or they could justify a makeup shot, since they almost always know where they hit.

SO hat on:

If members of a squad hear a shooter discussing round dumping as his plan of attack for a stage, then it is also the squads responsibility to inform the SO or the MD. Yeah, the shooter will get pi%%ed off, but I hate cheaters, and hopefully the guys on the squad will too. And I know that no one likes a rat, but rules are rules. The average shooter may only be fighting for 3rd place SSP MM. But to him that's his goal for the day or the year, and I'd hate to have a cheat take that away from him.

Terry

[GmanCdp]

don't admitt to anything..................

score sheet..........timer.....timed scored on shooting cof's..........points down.........score kept...on points down and the time it took you to shoot the cof...= a game.... a game in which YOU compete against OTHER shooters....If YOU claim to be shooting AGAINST yourself .....that's fine do it ...but please dont try to get other shooters to do it your way if THEY shoot it as a GAME......

not cheating if you shoot 1 extra shot on a target...especially if you are -3 down..

not cheating if you shoot 1 extra shot on a target...especially if you are -2down..

not cheating if you shoot 1 extra shot on a target...especially if you are -1 down

3 O's.....well i couldn't see the target from the smoke of the powder...i couldnt see the target ...it was at an angle as i was leaving the aray....i couldnt see the target...to shady... i couldnt see the target.... to sunny... i thought i heard someone yell miss....can you really read his mind???do you guys think that every target should HAVE to BE ZERO down ???

beside that....are you going to ding a shooter if he engages a target as 1 hit 1 miss 1 hit??

no...... how bout if he....well i think everybody knows what i'm talking about....

should we anounce the match as a hard core MY WAY MATCH or just shoot it as a GAME..

I like it......I like it the way i shoot it OR.... by watching other shooters shoot it.....and...its good to try to figure out how things[cof's] are done...and it's good to compete with other shooters in your squad...and talk about how you are going to shoot the cof....just plain shooting..it's fun !!!

Edited July 24, 2006 by GmanCdp

[Trail3]

This issue and low round count stages are why I am shooting more USPSA.

Who wants to drive an hour one way and only shoot 50 rounds?

It is a game. Have I taken extra shots? heck yes. I can't see the holes shooting

9mm, especially after all the tape shadows are on the target, half way through the match.

Our club can have up to 60 shooter at a monthly match. We don't change out targets.

Lots of tape, lots of shadows, so I take some extra shots.

I shoot for fun, If some RO wants to give me a penalty, go ahead, I'm just here to shoot and have a good time. Remember " It is a Game"

[Chills1994]

Pardon the slight thread drift, but I want to introduce two new acronyms for IDPA.

The first I kinda already talked about: RDSL, pronounced "Are-Diesel", it stands for round dumping to slide lock.

The next acronym is TADS: it is short for taking a dump syndrome. No, no, potty humor here.

At the end of a match some SO's can get together and exchange thoughts about what they encountered that day.....

SO Z: "Did you notice how many RDSL's Shooter X had today?"

SO Q: "Yep, I sure did. I think he is suffering from TADS."

SO Range Nazi: "I noticed that too! The quickest cure for TADS is an FTDR!"

SO B: "Whoa there fella! Maybe we should have an intervention with Shooter X first. Let's see if there is a 12 step program for TADS and introduce him to it."

With tongue in cheek, everyone. LOL!

Mnnn...maybe we could spin this off in the humor subforum into it's own thread of funny acronyms. Mnnn...

[marinegrunt]

For starters we could have

SONOFA pronounced "Son of a" Stands for "Safety Officer is a Nazi Or Facist Authoritarian!"

Heck I know several SONOFA's now. If we refer to the firearm of said SONOFA can we call it the SONOFA gun?

We can have the VINDSL Vastly Improved Necessary Dump Slide Lock Pronounced Vin Diesel when not only is it a help on the "Gaming" of the Stage but the shooter really did need an extra round on a Far target to feel good About his prospects of disabling the target. such as the house stage at Badlands Regional.

Edited July 26, 2006 by marinegrunt

[JD40]

For starters we could have

SONOFA pronounced "Son of a" Stands for "Safety Officer is a Nazi Or Facist Authoritarian!"

Heck I know several SONOFA's now. If we refer to the firearm of said SONOFA can we call it the SONOFA gun?

We can have the VINDSL Vastly Improved Necessary Dump Slide Lock Pronounced Vin Diesel when not only is it a help on the "Gaming" of the Stage but the shooter really did need an extra round on a Far target to feel good About his prospects of disabling the target. such as the house stage at Badlands Regional.

+1 for SONOFA

Has anyone ever seen a SONOFA win a division or class at a regional or state match? I think they are just mad that they cant shoot for sh**. I think we should should add NS to Sonofa and this will stands for NO Shootin SONOFA!!

[joeledwards515]

As an SO of 7 year, I believe if you are going to SO you should follow ALL of the rules or do not SO. I do not like the FTDR for round dumping, but that is a rule just like the rest of the rules. If a shooter gains an unfair advantge over his compitition , entended or not then he earned an FTDR. As the SO on that stage You should give him or her what they have earned. If you do not , then you have cheated everyone else . If you only have 3 or 4 steps there is no way reload with retention is as fast as slide lock. Bad habits are hard to break, Do not start them you are only hurting your self.

Joel

[marinegrunt]

It is apparent to me that RWR and TR are often put into scenarios to slow down shooters and put an "AHA I got you!" into the match. As an SO reading page 41 of the new rule book (BTW I shall henceforth attempt to refrain from referring to the Current Rule book as "the new rulebook" as it is the one and only rulebook for IDPA. WHICH ALL SO's SHOULD READ AND UNDERSTAND.) Under notes P41 it states "HQ urges Course designers to Draft Scenario Courses that do not require Tac-Reloads or Reloads With Retention to be performed "on the clock". Now to Quote Joel "you should follow all the rules or not SO" then one of those rules would be the Note on 41. I believe that we should not use "SPEED TRAPS" to ding the Shooter. Having been in Combat in Desert Storm, I never "Counted Rounds" However the targets were a little easier to see if a hit had indeed occured. Often we get into the discussion that it is a "game" which is true. This is dealt with in Appendix five Starting on P48. discussing the "real life" requirements in IDPA Scenarios. The likelyhood that I am going to count rounds and RDSL in Real life are Slim to none on a Close Target However a target that I can see or feel has a -1 or worse on it is going to get another rd before or after a reload. In Real life I may empty the 17 rounder that is in my Glock into 1 or 2 BG's

while reaching for another magazine if BG 3 pops his Grape Around the Corner and I am in the middle of reloading in a Tactical Manner neither I nor he are going to wait until I stow the half empty Mag to engage each other in a deadly Manner. Such is life.

FWIW Imagine a story about an 5+year veteran SO that dinged a Shooter for having a Glock 17 that had been modified by the addition of a factory extended Mag release and Glock 34 slide release. The Shooter was shooting SSP and the SO said that he could only shoot as ESP and as such was using illegal equipment. the Shooter broke out his rulebook turned to page 18. The SO said tough S### On the way home from the match The SO was going down the interstate at the Speed limit of 70 when blue and reds pulled him over for Going 15 MPH over the Speed Limit. SO says the Speed limit is 70 the Officer which happened to be the Shooter. Says tough S###! If you want to Go by Old Rules then 55 MPH is your Speed limit in my jurisdiction. Did this Happen? No, but it does illustrate the absurdity of some of these SO's that refuse to READ AND ABIDE BY THE NEW RULEBOOK.

Edited July 26, 2006 by marinegrunt

[Jim Watson]

Joel, et al.

My big hangup with the concept is that the rulebook is inconsistent and contradictory.

How can you present a stage shot Vickers Count where "In Vickers Count scoring, as many shots as desired may be fired, but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored. For Example: If two (2) hits per target are specified in the course description and three (3) shots are fired, ONLY the two (2) highest scoring hits will count for score." (pg 45); and then turn around and say "FTDR... Examples: 1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time." (pg 15)

You cannot have it both ways. The definition of Vickers Count does not require or permit you to estimate the basis of the shooter's desire to fire that extra shot.

FTDR example 1 says you can and should.

Now, as the SO, do you want to accomodate the shooter or restrict him?

That is the choice; if I fire an extra shot, you can either agree that my "desire" governed my behavior in Vickers Count or you can try to tell if I "dumped" it (By finding an extra Zero?) and deserve a huge penalty, but you cannot do both and thereby enforce ALL the rules.

[GmanCdp]

Under notes P41 it states "HQ urges Course designers to Draft Scenario Courses that do not require Tac-Reloads or Reloads With Retention to be performed "on the clock". Now to Quote Joel "you should follow all the rules or not ...

wording here is a key issue..'.urges' doesnt mean as a matter of fact..like rule # ???

after the article in the TJ awhile back about this subject....guess what happened at the next match...everybody said ..'well now we have to only have 4 and 6 rnd stages...no more rwr or tac loads....urges is a suggestion.....not a fact....also i was taught/told/informed/suggested/urged/ , that while writing COF's for state matches...that while writing the scenario.....it is supposed to put the shooter in a 'state of mind' on how the COF is shot....this has become a way for shooters to try to understand the 'thinking' on how they would have to shoot it in 'a real life scenario', and if you listen,while at a match, this is where alot of complaints of stage design comes in at.. ...isn't this just so neat to talk about stuff like this???

[simonsay]

Agreed that the rules and inconsistant SO's leave a lot to be desired in IDPA.

Funny story but a sanctioned match last year had a known cover Nazi working a stage. The match was "open squadding" so the locals that knew him simply shot the stage while he was on his lunch break.

If thats not enough to make you laugh at IDPA, I don't know what is. Poorly written rules left to interpretation is a wreck waiting to happen match after match. I still shoot a little but don't take it seriously. USPSA has my time and money now.

[Joe D]

Guys, I don't know why we are spinning our wheels on the "round dumping" rule. IDPA knows they have a bad rule. Bill Wilson is just too stubborn to change it. I do not know of any club in the southeast that even trys to enforce it.

I have been an SO for many years. You will never see me give any kind of penality for round dumping. How can I prove someone did it? I cannot read minds. Just another IPSC phobia Wilson rule.

[Jim Watson]

Like any other Internet quibble, it's just something to do while we're not shooting.

[simonsay]

I have been an SO for many years. You will never see me give any kind of penality for round dumping.

What about cover? I see more inconsistant calls on this than any other. There are some obious calls, but without instant replay, there's a whole lotta gray area. Could be all but eliminated with a box or fault line but that would be too IPSC'ey.

[bruce282]

What about cover? I see more inconsistant calls on this than any other. There are some obious calls, but without instant replay, there's a whole lotta gray area. Could be all but eliminated with a box or fault line but that would be too IPSC'ey.

How do you figure? The cover rule was explained to me to be 100% of the lower body (belt level and below) and 50% of the upper body. If you put a box behind a barricade I agree it would keep my feet behind cover but I could still lean out far enough to get dinged. I will admit though, most of the cover calls I've seen in 2 major matches have been for someone getting their feet and therefore their lower body out from behind cover. I'm sure there are SO's out there that feel almost anything is deserving of a cover PE, thankfully I haven't run into any of them.

Bruce

[COF]

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

No you do not. According to the rule book;

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading.

This doen't address "wide open" for instance hitting slide lock on the move with targets still visiable and not previously engaged.

Just my $0.02 - slide lock is definately faster and someone already mentioned making up two zeros with another zero is the most obvious FTDR situation.

Yes, you have to be behind cover when reloading.

From Appendix Three - Cover "All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and must be completed before leaving cover."

The above rulebook reference deals with the change about no longer having to duck back fully behind cover to perform a reload. Under the LGB, you had to be completely behind cover. This is no longer required. If you have cover to engage targets, you have cover to perform a reload and maintain visual on the targets.

Round dumping is one of thoese things that's hard to prove even when you see it. Like most of the folks have said - just do your reload and don't waste your time trying to figure whether or not you can get by with it. In the end, it just takes your focus off your shooting.

I always thought the Tactical Reload was too difficult for the average shooter until I learned a technique this spring. It was one of those "DUH" moments. With this technique, it makes it simple even with short fingers and double stack mags.

1. Pull the magazine out with the index along the front of the mag, thumb on one side and middle finger on the other - just like any reload.

2. When you bring the magazine forward, slide the index finger to the side with the thumb.

3. Use the thumb and forefinger to pull the mag out of the gun, rotate slightly and seat the fresh mag.

4. Stow the used mag while you're moving to the next shooting position.

I know a lot of folks probably use this technique already, but it had never dawned on me on how easy the Tac Reload really is.

Jerry

Edited July 28, 2006 by COF

[benny hill]

Don't shoot IDPA but matbe 2 times a year, but why would anyone want to store away a empty mag on a reload with a rd. left in the chamber? It does you no good & makes no common sense or logic, just takes you longer. What am I missing here?