Faster To Shoot To Slidelock Or Reload W/retention?

[ArnisAndyz]

Lets say your shooting CDP 8 + 1 and your slicing th pie on 4 targets before going to the next array.

Is it more acceptable to leave one in the chamber and reload w/retention or would it be OK to dump that last round (sorry, fire a quick makeup shot) till the slide locks back so you could drop the mag ? Seems like in this instance shooting to slidedlock would be faster. Am I risking a FTDR by taking that one extra shot? Seems like a fine line...did i knowingly dump a round to gain a competitive advantage or was it a legitimate makeup shot? Is it at the discretion of the RO?

Edited July 20, 2006 by ArnisAndyz

[benny hill]

Slide lock is much faster

[Jim Watson]

I won't give you a FTDR for shooting dry because I consider the "dumping" penalty to be incompatible with the definition of Vickers Count. But there are SOs who will, so you have to be careful about that.

As to whether it is faster to fire the ninth shot and slidelock reload or to RwR, well, that is what practice sessions are for.

The other alternative would be to go ahead and move to the next array, fire the last shot and then reload.

[ArnisAndyz]

Thanks for the replys.

I hear what your saying...its kind of like basketball and if the refs are going to call it tight or let you play.

In practice I'm consistently faster shooting to slidelock. My RWR needs some practice, but I don't think it will ever be as fast because of the extra motion of stowing the mag. I know I kind of answered my own question, but I was also concerned this may be viewed as "gaming."

Since reloads must be done behind cover, the third option doesn't seem as efficient to me, in addition, it would break my rythmn. Id be all set up for the next array, fire one shot then have to go back to cover to reload then re-engage when I could have just done it on the way. OR if your out in the open and shoot to slidelock are you permitted to reload without cover?

thanks

Edited July 20, 2006 by ArnisAndyz

[GmanCdp]

"But there are SOs who will, so you have to be careful about that"

especially the S.O.'s who carry around the crystal ball and can read your mind.....

don't admitt to anything....

if you have enough space behind cover ie: 3 or 4 steps, it may be faster for some shooters to perform a rwr/tl while moving....also try to watch what the other shooters in cdp are doing...or hey, just ask the S.O what the other CDP shooters did....i'd give you the correct answer

[boo radley]

Thanks for the replys.

I hear what your saying...its kind of like basketball and if the refs are going to call it tight or let you play.

In practice I'm consistently faster shooting to slidelock. My RWR needs some practice, but I don't think it will ever be as fast because of the extra motion of stowing the mag. I know I kind of answered my own question, but I was also concerned this may be viewed as "gaming."

Since reloads must be done behind cover, the third option doesn't seem as efficient to me, in addition, it would break my rythmn. Id be all set up for the next array, fire one shot then have to go back to cover to reload then re-engage when I could have just done it on the way. OR if your out in the open and shoot to slidelock are you permitted to reload without cover?

thanks

As you probably have guessed, you're stepping on one of IDPA's open nerves, and a lot of folks have strong feelings one way or the other about round-dumping, and the associated penalty.

But playing it straight -- taking option 3 -- might not be as slow as you think, because, A. you won't have to rehearse where/when you're going to dump a round in your mind, and if you're shooting 2-2-2, it's remarkably incongruent to have to focus on shooting 3 on a target, and B., there's also the cost of the shot itself.

A frustrating rule for all concerned, though -- if you do it often, all squad members and the SO will notice. There's only so much mind-reading necessary, when down 0's are made up with another 0, in optimal spots, and of course there's your own conscience. If you DON'T do it, then you get to appreciate losing a stage or match to someone who (probably) got away with it.

[vincent]

YES! you are risking an FTDR by taking an extra shot. Of course people do it all the time and you will never know when that FTDR is coming your way. The question you need to ask yourself is do I want to run that risk or do I want to play it by the book.

It is usually better to just shoot to slide-lock where-ever in the target sequence that may be. The difference between reloading on a transition between targets isn't enough to make up for the difference between a slide-lock reload and a reload-with-retention.

I think that most shooters over play the gain of reloading on a transition between targets. Find another way to save time.

[kdmoore]

My current thoughts on this... you are learning a bad habit.

When you get to a certain level, you are shooting same split times on a target as between targets, or pretty close. So trying to do something to avoid a transition is never going to be worth it.

You could work on speeding up your RWR and make it pretty fast, but I need to be thinking about fewer things, not more things.

BTW, I'm in the "I can't read a shooters mind" camp of SO's, so unless I hear you talk about throwing a shot, I can't award any penalty (which makes me happiest of all ).

[steel1212]

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

[Scooter]

It really depends on how the stage is set up. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes it doesn't make a difference.

You have to be stupid to dump the last round a get three -0 hits on the last target. That's the best way to get a FTDR. If you are going to dump a round, do it on the first target as the first shot slightly off the target. No one ever suspect someone dumping a round when it's the first shot and slightly off the target.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

No you do not. According to the rule book;

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading.

This doen't address "wide open" for instance hitting slide lock on the move with targets still visiable and not previously engaged.

Just my $0.02 - slide lock is definately faster and someone already mentioned making up two zeros with another zero is the most obvious FTDR situation.

[Crusher]

You have to be stupid to dump the last round a get three -0 hits on the last target. That's the best way to get a FTDR. If you are going to dump a round, do it on the first target as the first shot slightly off the target. No one ever suspect someone dumping a round when it's the first shot and slightly off the target

.

LOL, I ocassionally make up A hits in USPSA matches when I could not call the shot (not 100% on those shot calls yet) and some what to BING me (and some others) for the same action in IDPA? Inept RO's are INEPT RO's whatever game they play.

It's EITHER A VICKERS COUNT STAGE OR ITS A "LIMITED" VICKERS COUNT STAGE.

As far as I know the round dumping rule introduction into the 3rd revised edition of the newest rulebook was a direct result of firing to slidelock IN THE OPEN to GAIN A COMPETATIVE ADVANTAGE, but some chose to use it as a catch all for their "tacti-ninja doctrine" of all that is "mall".

To answer the original question there is also a RWR (reload with retention) where you can stow the mag on the way to the next array (allbeit empty) after you have charged the gun with a fresh mag. When practiced it can save .5-.75 seconds over a slidelock reload.

Hint: remove the empty mag first and then retrieve your fresh mag, insert the fresh mag (empty still in hand), then stow the empty as you run like the wind to the next array.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Crusher

[tnpyeron3]

As a SO, the way I would look at it is, if the shooter APPEARS to be legitimately trying to make up a shot, then no problem. If not then you have to question it.

As a shooter, I try to call my shots. After my laser eye surgery, I can actually see the holes, (especially .45). So if I know I hit a -1, -3 or if I only see 1 hole, then yes I will take the extra shot, a miss or a FTN isn't worth the added time. I know I can make up a hit faster than .50 seconds or more it would cost otherwise. Is it gaming, I don't believe so, it's competition.

Besides, if you are trying to game that much, you really have to look at why you are shooting IDPA in the first place. It's supposed to be fun, my fellow shooters and I don't have to cheat to have fun.

[Precision40]

I tried the whole "Making up an extra shot" thing in order to find a more convenient time to reload, but found myself spending more time on that than anything else. I found it to be as fast (If not faster) to do a reload with retention than a slide-lock reload, but that just me.

Think about it. It takes roughly 1.5-2 seconds to dump a mag into your vest and load a new mag, it also takes roughly 1.5-2 seconds to dump a mag on the ground, load a new mag and release the slide-lock. Now take into account that extra shot you take to "make up" which adds an extra 1-1.5 seconds and now your slower than doing a RWR.

IDPA is so slow to begin with, why make yourself slower with a bad technique?

[JD45]

Slidelock should always be faster, but there are a few things to consider. First, the penalty that has been mentioned. I have no idea how they can call it though.

Second, you should consider how often you will remember to make that second hit after slidelock. I always forget. So, shooting 8 shots and then doing a retention reload will allow you to burn down the house on the last four targets without thinking.

[RifleShooter]

To answer the original question there is also a RWR (reload with retention) where you can stow the mag on the way to the next array (allbeit empty) after you have charged the gun with a fresh mag. When practiced it can save .5-.75 seconds over a slidelock reload.

Hint: remove the empty mag first and then retrieve your fresh mag, insert the fresh mag (empty still in hand), then stow the empty as you run like the wind to the next array.

Isn't that what they call a Tactical Reload? Or a combination of that and the RWR. Tactical Reload says get the new mag, drop the old mag into your hand that also has the new mag, load the new mag into the gun, and then you can move while stowing the empty. Lots of guys around here do a Tac Reload when moving between shooting positions when the stage works out to make that a reasonable thing to do. That is, when they have one round left in the gun, and are moving to a new shooting position. I have not mastered the Tac Reload yet, but it would seem to be a good idea, in that you don't have to dump a round, and you still get to move from cover as soon as you seat the new mag.

Arnie

Edited July 21, 2006 by RifleShooter

[tnpyeron3]

Isn't that what they call a Tactical Reload? Or a combination of that and the RWR. Tactical Reload says get the new mag, drop the old mag into your hand that also has the new mag, load the new mag into the gun, and then you can move while stowing the empty. Lots of guys around here do a Tac Reload when moving between shooting positions when the stage works out to make that a reasonable thing to do. That is, when they have one round left in the gun, and are moving to a new shooting position. I have not mastered the Tac Reload yet, but it would seem to be a good idea, in that you don't have to dump a round, and you still get to move from cover as soon as you seat the new mag.

That is a perfect example for what you would want to do. The problems I see are that a lot of shooters are seating the mag while breaking cover, which is a procedural. The mag must be seated in the firearm before breaking cover. This does take practice and some coordination to be fast at it. I believe that I am almost as fast with a RWR as a slide lock.

[Joe D]

I usually send an email to IDPA HQ after each match just to let them know how many rounds I dumped to get to slide lock.

[rvb]

"Am I risking a FTDR by taking that one extra shot? "

YES. There are FTDR happy ROs. Now if I'm RO'ing a single stage and can't see you doing it over and over, I personally won't give it, but I *might* try to scare the crap out of you that I would depending on how obvious it is... get you all flustered... throw off your game. My thinking is the rule is fubar and speed loads should be legal, but it's a rule! If you're clean and fast and fire that extra shot and have that 'anybody see that' look on your face, I'm gonna make you sweat. May even call over the MD knowing he'll throw it out. Only upper-upper shooters will recognize my "game" and not sweat it. But that's just me, I'm an A-hole. Once, after the shooter left the stage, I called the MD and had him rattle a cage by saying "someone claims you were round dumping... don't let it happen again..." Don't get me wrong I don't do it everytime I see an extra shot... only once or twice EVER... but when an shooter has 4 pairs of -0s and puts in an extra -0 (and there's a *definate* advantage to going to SL), I like to rattle cages, usually in a good natured way (something like "how conveniant you thought you missed over there!"). Sometimes there's more to RO'ing than black and white.

RWR/tacs can be faster than dumping depending on how far or where you have to move... taking the extra shot may cost you 0.15-1.5 (depending on your level) before you can begin your reload and movement. If you have to switch sides of a baricade, you have time to save the split on that shot, do the RWR, and be ready on the other side.

On a personal note, ask yourself what you're cheating for.... There's no money. Unless you're capable of winning multiple major matches you're not going to make a name for yourself (and the big "names" have enough eyes on them they are real carefull about ftdrs). If you're the kind of person who has to cheat (face it, that's what round dumping is, whether you like the rules or not) for a cheap trophy, then you deserve an FTDR. That and a reputation as a cheater. That's what the rule is for. Note I'm not saying "gamer," a gamer is one who looks for advantages WITHIN the rules. A cheater looks for ways to BREAK the rules and not get caught. If you don't LIKE the rules (I'm the first to admit there are many that I don't like) you can either deal with it or petition HQ to make changes.

/rant off/

rvb

ps. I've never given an FTDR.

Edited July 21, 2006 by rvb

[boo radley]

"Am I risking a FTDR by taking that one extra shot? "

YES. There are FTDR happy ROs. Now if I'm RO'ing a single stage..../rant off/

rvb

ps. I've never given an FTDR.

Nothing constructive to add beyond -- what a great reply.

[ArnisAndyz]

Excellent replys...thanks for the info. I'm still learning the game. I don't intend to be a "cheater", just would like to know what is "allowable" within the rules of the game. Just like someone else said, it kind of rubs the wrong way when your the only one doing it right and everyone else is playing to the limit of the rules (or beyond). Its kind of a hazey line between Vickers count and dropping rounds, add in the personal opinions of any given RO on any given day and the answers could vary.

Part of me wants to do what my dad always told me "Do whats right". But the other part says "When in Rome"... So if everyone (including the RO) is skimming the line, should I do it the right way or get drawn into the game? I guess its a personal descision on what I want to achieve.

Edited July 21, 2006 by ArnisAndyz

[GmanCdp]

I usually send an email to IDPA HQ after each match just to let them know how many rounds I dumped to get to slide lock.

YO JOE !!! if you plan on shootin our state match this year you'll be in luck no need to email HQ.................

i'll have 2 area [51 ]cordinators S.O.' ing 2 different stages...so you can just be the 'nike ' shooter and "just do it' ... heck....if you want...we can film it ...but of course you know the SO's..... G'

Edited July 21, 2006 by GmanCdp

[Joe D]

Do I need to send my "SO Tip" in advance or just pay by the stage like last year.

If you guys wanted to raise some extra money allow the shooter to buy a stage. $20 gets you a reshoot on a bad stage. Shooter has to take the reshoot score.

We may do this at the Anniston charity match.

[JD45]

I usually send an email to IDPA HQ after each match just to let them know how many rounds I dumped to get to slide lock.

You've got the best plan I've heard yet!

[Morphire]

Sometimes there's more to RO'ing than black and white.

Funny. And here I thought the RO was interested in making sure the rules were followed and that the shooter was safe. If you are gonna call it, then call it., If you aren't, then let it go and get on to the next shooter. I guess I just disagree with your tactics on this one. The RO isn't in the business of getting a shooter "flustered" as far as I'm concerned.

Kevin