Hurry Up And Wait

[rvb]

ok guys, you may remember me back in the spring as an IDPA guy wanting to get started in USPSA.... well, I have, and I love it!! I've only got 4 matches under my belt (working on my masters degree in EE and taking my final two classes this summer has killed my shooting season... I've only shot twice in the last 3 months. anyway....)

Question:

The last uspsa match I attended I almost never got my to see my time/targets for each stage. Granted, by design, IDPA has less movement and less shots fired, but I don't recall consistantly having so many stages where I finish and have NO idea how I scored on the first half-dozen targets. The scorekeepers were scoring and pasting the first half of the stages (stages w/ forward movement) literally before I had finished the cof. I'm out of practice and slow, but common, I'm not THAT slow!

I'm curious if the hurry-up mentality is common place or not? Maybe uspsa is faster than IDPA in more ways than one? Granted, it was like 110 degrees so I can see people wanting to go home, but we were behind a slower squad all day and usually ended up waiting several minutes on them to finish. I didn't want to come off as an uptight newbie and make them do anything special for me by asking them to wait to walk through with me while scoring, so I just went with the flow, but I'm curious what the average scoring procedure is at the club level.

Another Question:

Revolving ROs: Had never seen that at an IDPA match. Common in uspsa? At club level only or also at major matches? Ever cause problems with consistancy? Just curious... I actually like it. It would never work in IDPA since so many rules are so subjective and you wouldn't want different people making cover calls, etc.

Thanks for your insight!!

rvb

(Ryan)

[ima45dv8]

Scoring behind the shooter is fairly common around here.

Yes, it keeps the match moving at a good pace, but as a squad we try to make sure that any "bad" targets are brought to the shooter's attention *before* taping. If you have a Mike or a No-shoot hit, we have someone "hold" that target and call out to the shooter to give them a chance to see it before it gets reset. I would hope that the same is done everywhere, but likely that isn't the case. Admittedly I usually shoot with the same group of people ("The Ususal Suspects") so we all know the drill and work well together with regards to scoring.

As far as the correct time getting recorded, the shooter has some ownership in that. Listen to the time called by the RO and then check that the person with the scoresheet wrote it down correctly. If you have any concerns the time to speak up is right then and there. If you question it later no one has any way to verify whether the correct time was recored (exceptions related to the CED 7000 & 8000 noted).

If you have any discomfort with the particular group of shooters you are squadded with at any match, and you think they may not be recording hits and/or times correctly, speak up gently and let them know you prefer to see the targets as they are being scored, preferably by the RO. As your comfort/trust level increases you may elect to have them score while you're shooting.

Revolving ROs: By this I guess you mean ROs imbedded in the squad and taking turns running the clock throughout the match (as opposed to stage-dedicated ROs). It's generally not a problem as long as the folks taking turns with the timer are all competent. If you have concerns about an individual running the clock, again, gently speak up and ask to accompany the RO during scoring.

[f250sd]

Its about the same as ima45dv8 stated for all the USPSA clubs I shoot at for monthly matches. Shots on the scoring lines, mikes and no shoots are always pointed out to the RO and shooter, as they should be. Revolving RO's do cause problems in IDPA, But not really in USPSA due to the reasons you stated. Major USPSA matches are a different story. Stage asigned RO's, and targets are scored along with the RO and shooter.

Welcome to USPSA. You'll have a blast.

[zhunter]

Like others have stated above, it is about the time. In Floirda, well, it is about the heat, and well, the sooner we finish, the sooner we can get to Sonny's for some BBQ!!!!

[Merlin Orr]

Someone is going to tell you...Know where your sights are when you break each and every shot. If you have a sight picture when you pull the trigger you will know your first half dozen targets were hit because you were looking at the sights when the shot was fired.

The other side of this is that it also allows you to make up shots that were a little rushed when you squeezed them off as you will know you had a less than acceptable hit or a miss.

I hope one of the better shooters/teachers will step up and explain this a little better than I have.

[Two Mikes]

Two alternatives is to ask one of squadmates to follow the scorer and record your scores or ask to see the sheet after the scorer is done.

The rotating RO's helps share the burden of running the match. Some stages you RO, others you tape, etc. Scoring while shooting helps speed up the match, as long as if its safe.

[pskys2]

Your score is not official until you sign off on it. If you think the time, or score, isn't right demand a re-shoot. Do that a couple of times in 100 deg. heat and you will be cussed roundly, but if someone is screwing with you others will see it and say something.

At Monthly Matches it is common to "NOT" have the shooter sign the score sheet. But the same principle applies. Always demand to look at the score sheet after the course. If it's not right, assuming you followed the RO when he scored, say so.

Most of the time scoring behind the shooter is just a time saving feature and if there's anything but A's & C's, or questions, it will be pointed out. But newbies sometimes don't realize it and even some who should know better will get too aggressive. If you think that's the case, don't make a big scene but tell your squad what you want.

If these things don't work, you're in a club that's got management problems. Because it's not normal for IPSC shooters to "push" scoring, just stage resetting and their shooting.

[Flexmoney]

Scoring behind the shooter sux azz.

When I shoot, I want the feedback from seeing my hits (during scoring...even though I call my shoots pretty well ).

The rules state that the shooter gets to see their targets, or they have to be informed that the scoring will be done behind them...and allowed to designate somebody to represent them as the scoring is done.

On the score sheets, it is the shooter's responsibility to see that the score sheets properly show your run. Of course, that might be hard to do if you don't get to see them.

I'd talk with your local Match Director about your concerns. If that doesn't get any traction (it should), then drop a note to your Section Coordinator.

[shred]

I'd start by asking the tapers if maybe they could hold off taping for you until you've seen your targets if that's what you want. (If you're questioning the scoring itself, then you have to get the scorekeeper to hold off which might be harder). Then grab a roll of tape and start taping. Saying something like "I'm learning and want to check how I called my shots" should work, and if you help when there's taping to be done, it should go almost as fast as if they did it behind you.

[Jim Norman]

Regarding signing your score sheet.

At local matches people often wave off the signing. This is not good. Consider that what you do at your home club is what you will likely do away from home. This is one reason that it is a very good thing to enforce the rules at home the same way you'd expect at the Nationals. This way you don't form bad habits.

Look over your score sheet and add the target totals across the sheet. Each target should have the correct number of hits. Verify the time is both present and correct. Ask to look at the timer if you feel that the time called out is incorrect.

As to taping behind the shooter. We do this. It is not always a good idea, but generally it works to move a match along. PROVIDED that as has been said, Misses and Questionable Shots or No-Shoots are not taped and are pointed out to the shooter. It is up to the shooter to then either walk over and look at his targets or to wave off the viewing. Often times you KNOW you missed so it is perfectly acceptable to wave off looking BUT you, as the shooter should be afforded that opportunity.

If the rules are applied at local matches, the shooters will have fewer problems at major matches. We should only need to know ONE set of rules. This is why Local Rules are discouraged. There are of course the safety exceptions that the host clubs or localities may have in place. We have no real choice there. Either obey the local rule or shoot elsewhere. But the basic rules of the game should never present a problem and should always be applied.

(Yes, even when I would like to change them!)

Jim

[ipscbob]

Varies by club. At our two locals, we make it a point NOT to score behind the shooter because these groups are pretty competitive and it reduces the chance of disputes. When I RO, I always have the shooter follow me as I score the stage so that any disputes are raised as soon as they are made.

[Truegent2004]

Scoring behind the shooter is common in MN on field courses at matches with high turn outs. Pasters know not to paste targets with one or zero hits and no shoot hits until the shooter sees them.

[rvb]

Wow, lots of replies. First, I realize based on the responses I may have come off harsh. I did NOT intend that! (That's what I get for typing my post at 0100 hours after 8 hrs of work and 3 hrs of class).

I'm not trying to rock the boat, just understanding how it floats.

Let me say I'm NOT uptight about, nor disputing, the scoring. The "flow" is just different than I'm used to at local IDPA shoots (20 shooters, low round counts). I never challenged that I was being scored WRONG, just noticed that scoring seemed so hurried. I'm certainly not saying anyone was doing anything shady or anything like that. Yes, the couple of mikes I shot over the day were pointed out to me specifically. At the local level, I work to improve my shooting, sometimes trying new things, sometimes pushing my abilities, etc... so it's nice to see the holes. I guess that's the crust of my question.

Yes, I know how to call shots and have really improved at it over the years with room to grow still.... but honestly, can anyone but the best GMs really get it right all of the time (ie "where'd that C/D/M come from?!"). Post-shoot bullet hole feedback is important to learning your shot calling, imo.

I guess I had heard how "by the book" uspsa was compared to idpa, and was suprised over the last couple matches to see how nonchallant (sp?!) scoring was. Jim, I think, said it best regarding keeping local shoots consistant to big shoots. I think Flex best understands why I'd like to see the holes.

I should not have brought up about the time error. It's just one of those things and had it not been so obvious a typo, I'd never have caught it. I never complained to anyone about it cause it didn't matter to me. I only mentioned becuase I hoped it would illustrate my point. The couple of times I did try to ask "what did I score on the first xxx targets and what was my time?" my sheet had already been shuffled under and the next shooter was being prepared, no time to review or add points at all, imo.

My solution: I'll take Flex's suggestion. I usually travel to matches w/ a buddy I've been shooting w/ for years. I'll simply ask him to give me feedback on hits that are scored/pasted before I can see them. There's a reason I brought this up on the www vs at the match ... I don't want to be THAT GUY who needs treated different. I'm happy to go w/ the status quo!

Thanks!!

Ryan

Edited July 18, 2006 by rvb

[wide45]

The RO scores the targets here. We're pretty quick about getting it done too. I want to see my targets scored. RO's usually take extra care with misses, it's rare for a hit to be unseen. It is not rare for the wrong score value to be called. If you have not been watching the scoring, you don't know.

The new guys are usually preoccupied with picking up mags and such, while RO is off scoring targets. Suddenly there is a score sheet to initial, and the new guy realizes he has no idea what the numbers mean.

Ask that they hold off scoring so you can see it done. Pleed newbyism if you have to, but be nice about it. As soon as the range is called clear you will have to hustle over. Don't keep them waiting.

Edited July 18, 2006 by wide45

[shopgun]

We always have stage dedicated R.O.s and the RO scores the targets The squads are told where scoring willstart we're pretty emphatic that EVERYBODY but the on deck ,in the hole and last shooter will tape & set steel. We have about 50 shooters averageon match day(RO's shoot the day before) so our squads are pretty large and we still finish, including teardown , approx 3.5 hours. I want to see my targets. The other shooters will get the courtesy to see thiers. I've been to about 20 nats, and i remember only one stage where the targets were scored behind the shooter and that with the shooter given the opportunity to designate an observor . The key is getting everyone to help. If you have a body at every target with a paster box in hand, it goes real fast.

[sturmruger]

At our local match we have to stop shooting at sundown. If we have more then 40 shooters show up we pretty much have to shoot as we go or we will not finish in time.

If you like to see your targets I am sure it would be acceptable to mention to the RO that you would like to see your targets as the score are called off.

[ampleworks]

I don't mind someone scoreing targets as they are shot but they should not be pasted until the shooter is finished shooting.

Many of the times I don't check my targets. It depends on whether I know the RO or not. If its someone I don't know then I go behind them.

Too many times have I found people ROing and they haven't even taken the class or they have and are still using "If your gun is clear, slide forward, hammer down, and holster" UGH.

[Jim Norman]

Actually I was under the impression that the correct commands were:

at the start, either Stoke'em Up Cowboy or Stoke it, Stroke it flick it, stick it.

At the end of the COF: OK, If you think you are really done screwin this course up, then show me an empty and put it away.

OK, Humor mode off. At the end of the COF, a lot of people will say "If you are finished, unload and show clear, gun clear, slide forward, hammer down, holster, range is clear.

Yup, I know that we now are supposed to say "If Clear", but old habits die hard and besides, that is a concession to IPSC that really might be gramatically more correct, but we all knew that if the gun wasn't clear, you earned your DQ. Only in IPSC land was there a problem with that.

As to Slide Forward, there are two reasons. Some new shooters are really nervous and we are simply telling them it is ok to let the slide go forward after showing clear. The second reason is that our area director really likes it when we do it that way. (OK, so I slipped back into the humor mode again)

A couple points to ponder here. We NEVER screw around with a new shooter, we only do this with those that "get it" and only at the club level. At larger matches, we are as much a stickler for the rules as the next guy. But after working for three hours to build a match while ohters sit and watch, we are entitled to a little levity on our squad.

Jim

Edited July 27, 2006 by Jim Norman

[driver8M3]

ryan,

scoring before the shooter finishes is actually covered in the rule book:

9.6 Score Verification and Challenge

9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor

or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official

responsible for scoring to verify the scoring.

9.6.2 The Range Official responsible for a course of fire may stipulate

that the scoring process will begin while a competitor is actually

completing a course of fire. In such cases, the competitor’s delegate

must be entitled to accompany the official responsible for

scoring in order to verify the scoring. Competitors must be

advised of this procedure during the squad briefing.

9.6.3 A competitor (or his delegate) who fails to verify a target during

the scoring process loses all right of appeal in respect of scoring

that target.

i'm sure it's not always properly announced, but we can work on that!

we do try to keep the match moving along quickly (fredericksburg is one of the biggest-and best- local matches i know of...with around a hundred shooters/month, it's got to keep moving). but you should always at least get to see your scoresheet, and usually at least some/most of your targets. nobody will think it's a problem if you ask to see your scoresheet and or the timer. also, any questionable targets should be held for the shooter to inspect (with many new shooters/pasters, this might not always occur). don't be afraid to speak up (nicely, of course); most shooters good guys, and would completely understand where you're coming from.

as for an incorrect time...you can send an email to match director/stats person. they'll be glad to change a data entry error.

[tightloop]

If I am shooting really well and might win HOA I want to see each and every target...if I am out of the hunt, does not matter...I can also understand that a relatively new shooter would want to see each target till they get the drill down pat..