Future Of Uspsa Revolver Division

[Merlin Orr]

I seem to recall seeing a "sample" type letter/e mail boilerplate for requesting an area director's support of something in the past - posted here on the Forum. With a few mods I am sure it could be made applicable to the particular needs of Revolver shooters.... Perhaps "we" could find a suitable boiler plate, post it here and whoever wishes to contact their AD could fill in the blanks and - Start Something.

Yes I will e mail Ken Hicks in support of Revolver.

and Single Stack also, not that it matters.....

Here is email contact information for the board of directors:

Pres Michael Voigt president@uspsa.org

1 Bruce Gary area1@uspsa.org

2 Chris Endersby area2@uspsa.org

3 Emanuel Bragg area3@uspsa.org

4 Kenneth Hicks area4@uspsa.org

5 Gary Stevens area5@uspsa.org

6 Charles Bond area6@uspsa.org

7 Rob Boudrie area7@uspsa.org

8 George Jones area8@uspsa.org

Edited July 1, 2006 by Merlin Orr

[Barrettone]

Okay, after several days of lurking, I finally have to jump in on this one. I don't shoot revolver. I shoot single stack open, at the rare local match that I shoot. What I do best is crunch numbers.

Yes, I think revolver participation is growing. Every match I have worked during the last 2 years has had more revolver shooters than the year before, majors & local. At my local match, we usually see more revolver shooters (3 or 4) than singlestack shooters or L-10 shooters (0 to 2). This year, for the first time ever, I had enough revolver shooters at my State Section Championship to award 3 prizes for Revolver (High Overall, State Champion & 1st place C class). I have tried to help the revo shooters with their efforts to put a record number of revolver shooters into the Summer Blast.

Posting on the forum in the Revolver threads is not enough to get the message out. I'd like a volunteer to write an article for Front Sight about the revolver gathering at Summer Blast. I will be happy to help with details & will make sure we have pictures to go with it. This is in addition to the usual match report about the match in Front Sight (not instead). I would also LOVE to have a new revo shooter from Summer Blast for a sidebar article in that Front Sight (We have a few Revo shooters who are at their first major match & I'd like one of 'em to write it up). Sidebar articles can be real short.

Please think of the amount of "ink" 3 Gun shooting & Single Stack have gotten in Front Sight over the last year. While a large number of you post & read on this forum, the bulk of the membership is not aware that this exists, but everyone gets Front Sight. The bulk of our membership will never attend a tournament level match, so you need to get the word out-- about the fun, about the challenge, about the camaraderie.

And we need an advocate on the board. The "ink" in Front Sight is only a small part of the reason support is high for 3 gun and singlestack (even if & when the numbers did not warrent it yet). Many thanks to Bruce Gary & Gary Stevens for honestly sharing their opinions, but there are 6 other board members. Do you know how yours would vote on division changes? I sent Charles Bond (my Area Director) an email today to ask him.

Sorry if I only have a few suggestions, but we need to start somewhere.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

I wouldn't mind doing it Linda. Anything that will help boost revolver participation. I've written for FS before, and it really isn't that hard to do. I would need those photos though (with a letter from the photographer giving permission to reprint them and for recognition in FS)...Roger Maier thinks an article is "dry" without them (I tend to agree).

Jeff

[Carmoney]

Thanks Randy and Linda for your excellent observations. And covering the Summer Blast match with a focus on Revolver Division is an excellent idea! I'm going to be shooting with a couple of new USPSA members--guys who joined our organization (almost on a dare!) in order to shoot wheelgun at the Blast. If they're willing, they would be excellent candidates to profile as examples of the growth in our division.

In addition to contacting my own Area Director, I have also sent a polite email to the entire board of directors regarding this issue. This has begun some private dialogue that I believe is positive for our cause.

Emails, phone calls, personal contact--all of these would be helpful.

Keep in mind the single most persuasive point we need to get across is that Revolver Division is demonstrably growing at a much faster proportional rate than the other divisions. That should be point number one.

[Hog Sniper]

I feel another "Dare" coming on Carmoney!! Sounds like something we all need to talk about at "Wheelie Bar & Grill" on Saturday night..It would be nice to have a few pictures from there to show how its a closer group of folks that just like to have a good time..

[Carmoney]

What happens in York, stays in York.

[cliffwalsh]

What happens in York, stays in York.

+++++++1111111

[AFDavis11]

Have we decided where this meet is? If we turn out to only be 3% of the resturants business that hour will they still let us eat?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Have we decided where this meet is? If we turn out to only be 3% of the resturants business that hour will they still let us eat?

Just a limited menu

Wish I could join you guys. Tough time of year business wise.

Have fun.

[Barrettone]

Have we decided where this meet is? If we turn out to only be 3% of the resturants business that hour will they still let us eat?

Wheelies bar and grill. Its over in the Summer Blast thread.

Jeff

[pskys2]

Thanks Linda for all of the support. Great idea, articles to FS and (Ciff/Pat) American Handgunner or other Mags will be one of the best ways to highlight the REVOlution. AH seems to run at least 1 story on Revolvers each issue. And Pat just wrote up the IDPA Winternationals for Guns & Ammo Handguns, good read BTW.

After gently guiding my local club to recognize Revolver at their annual Money Match in 2005, then helping with it as a Sectional in 2006, I did just that and submitted an article to FS. They seemed "VERY" happy to receive it and "WANTED" to highlight the Revolver Division. We had jumped from 5 in 2005 to 16 in 2006 and had "4" Masters in attendance. That same weekend also had 17 Revolver Competitors at the Mississippi Sectional. Hope Hop gets around to writing it up also.

I think "IF" the participation in Revolver Division continues to grow USPSA will be more than happy to recognize it. We just have to create the BUZZ ourselves.

I like shooting IPSC, with anything. But, shooting it with a Revolver can make you look really foolish, or really cool. Sometimes in the same course!

Last Stop in 2006 is the Iowa USPSA Revolver Match, October 8. That may be the next best chance, outside of the Nationals, to highlight the Revolver Division.

[R112mercer]

Have we decided where this meet is? If we turn out to only be 3% of the resturants business that hour will they still let us eat?

Three Percent!!!! Cliff's tab alone should be around 30% of their income for the night!

[uzi]

sorry i post in worng place.

Edited July 3, 2006 by uzi

[Buff87]

I would hate to see revolver division go away and have already written to Voigt and the board; I don't care how many people shoot revolvers, it's a valid division and shoud be maintained.

[hopalong]

Thanks for the support Buff.

I went back and looked at some of my older e-mails to my Area director about this very subject(I keep the important ones) and here is his response to my asking....(2 years ago)

This is NOT a direct quote but you folks will get the picture.

Thanks for asking, I don't really support the revolver division because it is not doing anything for USPSA.....or hurting so since we have it already on the books, I'm inclined to leave it alone for now.

That was 2 years ago, and I still have the same Area Director (6) and from the answer above, if this ever comes to a head it appears his vote will be to eleminate the division.

So.....

everyone do as Buff did, and send Voight, and the rest of the B.O.D. a quick not just saying if nothing else, leave it alone and see if it will continue the small but obvious growth.

Sam Keen

[LChico]

Yeah, he's my Area Director, too. I will have to disagree with Charles (again). . .because I think Revolver shooters are doing a lot for USPSA in terms of promoting the sport & demonstrating the attitude and sportsmanship that I wish would catch on in a few of the other divisions.

Revolver shooters are some of the hardest working staff at local & major matches I've worked.

Revolver shooters realize being competitive does not mean you have to resort to weasel tactics or "super gamesmanship." (They apparently save that for on-line forum comments directed at their fellow revo shooters )

And I always thought the organization was there to serve us, not the other way around. Even if the financial input is small, it is still money flowing in.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[EricW]

It would be interesting if someone in the know at USPSA could chime in with an estimate of the annual administrative cost of a division. It would also be interesting to compare that with the number of people in USPSA with a revo classification and a realistic guesstimate of the number of people who shoot revo as their primary arm.

[Carmoney]

Eric, I'd be interested in knowing those numbers too. It's hard to imagine that maintaining Revolver as a separate division creates any identifiable additional expense to USPSA.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Eric, I'd be interested in knowing those numbers too. It's hard to imagine that maintaining Revolver as a separate division creates any identifiable additional expense to USPSA.

From what I gather, the problem arises with National Match costs. Currently there are two different venues for handgun nationals scheduled. Each with an associated cost. Then add the Three Gun Nats, the Single Stack Nats, and costs just skyrocket.

I have no idea why things are done this way and would need someone more knowledgeable than I to explain, but it seems to me that from a business point of view, leave all handgun divisions as is but shoot the National match all at the same time at the same location to cut costs.

Now, I realize the professional shooters and the extremely active shooters will balk at this because they will want to be able to compete in more than one national match, but I am sure something can be done to accommodate all.

Maybe someone else can explain

Regards,

Edited July 5, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[shred]

I would bet that the largest cash money 'cost' of a division is plaques. Those things are way more expensive than I thought.

[Waltermitty]

I still think the cost and participation level in Revolver Division is a Red Herring.

The REAL cost issue is having FIVE (5) semi-auto divisions.

[Carmoney]

Let's put this "cost" thing in perspective and use the 2005 USPSA Nationals as an example:

Last year 20 shooters competed in Revolver Division at the Nationals. We shot right alongside L and L-10, and no changes were made to stage design or anything like that. They had to print off separate results for Revolver, so there was an increased cost of 20 sheets of paper, the printer ink, and the scotch tape needed to hang the results up on the wall.

A small prize table was set up for Revolver. Jerry won a gun, Cliff won a frame, Dan won a scope, I won a chrome certificate, and it went downhill pretty fast from there. I believe these prizes were all donated by the manufacturers--if that is correct, then there was no additional administration cost for prizes.

There were four plaques made for Revolver Division, plus 18 medals for the stage winners. Obviously, these had to be purchased.

There were no other additional expenses of having a separate Revolver Division that I can perceive. Every other dollar spent at Nationals would have been spent anyway, with or without us.

Twenty shooters competed in Revolver Division, contributing at least $4,000 in cold cash to the match. The vast majority of these shooters would not have participated in a different division, and would not have competed if they were shooting for a single "Top Revolver" category plaque as part of the Limited match.

Bottom line: Having a separate Revolver Division was clearly profitable at the '05 USPSA Nationals. This year with 34+ Revolver participants bringing in $7,000+ in entry fee money, most of whom would not be there if Revolver were not a separate division, USPSA will benefit even more. It's a good thing financially to have us there!

The same exact pattern applies across the board, from the Nationals on down. At our Iowa Sectional this year, we had 9 Revolver shooters, paying $450 in entry fees (we're a bargain!) and awarded two plaques. (At least 6 of those shooters would not have shot the match if Revolver were not a separate division.) Again, it was a nice little chunk of money our club would not have made without a Revolver Division.

Now look at your typical local club level match. OK, depending on the locale, maybe only a couple wheelgunners turn out. But they still paid their entry fees, right? And they might not have shown up at all if there wasn't a separate "match within a match" for them to compete in. Did it cost anything to post separate results for them? Once again, the club is better off with Revo than without.

Whatever the motivation behind the BOD's concerns, it is not a money thing. We more than pay our own way.

[38superman]

Okay, so much has been said about this, I don't know if I can add much but I'll put in my .02 anyway.

If revolver division goes away I hope it won't be about the money.

USPSA needs money to operate but it is not a for profit business.

It is an organization that exists soley to facilitate competitve sport with firearms.

Revolvers are firearms.

I don't believe that wheel guns are particularly well suited to a sport that has its roots in close combat style competition.

The fabulous trigger and rigid frame make them ideal for bullseye, metallic sillouette, and other sports that place a premium on accuracy.

The relatively low round count and the inherent difficulty in reloading put them at distinct disadvantage when the clock is running.

That having been said, there is a small but dedicated group in our ranks that love the challenge and I hope they are always welcome here.

We may, in fact, have too many divisions and while I like L10 and SS I can't honestly think why we need both.

However, the ideal situation is for anyone to bring whatever they own to a match and have a level playing field to compete on.

We need new blood to survive and the "gateway divisions" are crucial.

Nobody walks in the door with an open gun to shoot their first IPSC match.

The BOD has a tough job to balance what we would like to have vs. what we can afford.

Reality has to play a part.

No one would suggest we need a black powder or muzzle loader division.

How about a Single shot division for the Thompson Contender crowd?

Where do you draw the line?

Somewhere that helps up keep what we have, I hope.

Tls

Edited July 6, 2006 by tlshores

[AFDavis11]

I don't believe that autoloaders are well suited to a sport that has its roots in close combat gunfighting.

But I'm willing to pretend the targets aren't shooting back while they clear a jam anyway.

Because ultimately I'm here to support USPSA, not just my Division.

[wolfie40cal]

Okay, I loved the previous post. Actually, a

thoughtful intelligent guy. He probably shoots for the same reason I do.

I'm a police officer. I have always looked at shooting as a martial art.

We must remember that USPSA is in a constant drag battle with IPSC. We are damn lucky we are not shooting the gay no-head targets. One thing I do Thank our BOD for constantly. If you mentioned the "sport" as being related to "Close Combat", there would be heart attacks coast to coast.

But saying a revolver is not "Combat" ready? Brother, I live in Tulsa. We made the top 10 violent cities last year with a record homicide rate. We are on our way again.

I have shot people. I have been shot. Both in the military, and in the police department.

I have never seen a situation I could not have handled with a revolver. They make me carry a Glock 21C now. Good gun.

No better than a S&W Model 19. It is always the man - it is never the gun.

[Viggen]

Okay, I loved the previous post. Actually, a

thoughtful intelligent guy. He probably shoots for the same reason I do.

I'm a police officer. I have always looked at shooting as a martial art.

We are damn lucky we are not shooting the gay no-head targets.

It is always the man - it is never the gun.

Im' with you on the "It's always the man - it is never the gun" thing.

But you got to learn to enjoy the gay no-head/no-hit targets. Makes you really bring hits closeer. No more of those nipper, D- zone hits on the shoulders and the A-zone is a lot tighter.