Future Of Uspsa Revolver Division

[Carmoney]

For those of you who haven't seen the thread about the provision single-stack division, you might want to take a look:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37004

My concern arises when Area 5 Director and USPSA board member Gary Stevens says:

[T]he eliminate L-10 train was on the track prior to the SS division. It is still on the track and moving right along. I wouldn't be surprised if Revolver was riding along in the caboose. Just my opinion though.

Flexmoney then says:

Folks...

I talked to Gary this past weekend...face-to-face.

What he is trying to hint at (rather bluntly) is that Limited-10 and Revolver, from his understanding, don't have much support from the USPSA Board Of Directors. And, that he is not a part of that...

If that doesn't sit well with you...don't waste your energy and time venting about it here, get in touch with your Board Of Directors !!!

Guys, if this were just the standard gossip mill stuff, I wouldn't have started this thread. But when the source is Gary Stevens (whom I believe has demonstrated his support for our division in the past), I do think we need to be worried. And I think we need to take action.

It's obvious that Revolver division, although still small, is experiencing a very real growth trend. We are seeing more and more wheelgun participation at major matches. There were more revolvers at the 2006 Kansas Sectional than Production or L-10! Last year there were 5 revolvers at the Summer Blast, this year we'll have 5 or 6 times that many. The '06 USPSA Nationals will see more wheels than ever before. The official USPSA calendar for this year includes the first-ever sanctioned Revolver-only match (Iowa, October 8) and there is plenty of interest already.

It's also obvious that we are still the forgotten step-child of USPSA, at least from the perspective of some of the current leadership. That was all too apparent at the awards ceremony following the '05 USPSA Nationals when our president literally forgot to present the plaques to the top Revo finishers.

But that attitude is not truly reflective of the USPSA rank and file. I continue to be approached by other shooters, newbies and long-time USPSA shooters alike, who are interested in getting started in Revo. I continue to hear positive comments from ROs and staff at major matches ("man I love watching those revolver guys shoot"...."I need to get me one of them 625s"....etc.) I continue to see more and more coverage of Revolver shooting in Front Sight magazine. We are heavily represented right here on this forum, with more and more wheelgunners chiming in all the time.

Having a separate and distinguished Revolver division is important to the membership of USPSA. We are not comparable to L-10, Production, or any other division. With our 6-round limitation and completely different reload requirements, we cannot be wrapped into another division as a "category" and stay alive. Whatever issues the BOD may have with regard to L-10, those issues do not apply to us. If the concern is that L-10 and Single-Stack have too much overlap to remain independently viable, that concern certainly does not apply to Revolver. There is truly no other place for us to go (within USPSA) if our division is dumped.

There's absolutely no downside to keeping Revolver as a separate division. We don't whine, we don't hold anybody up at matches, and we certainly don't bleed off resources from the organization.

What USPSA should do is give us the support we deserve, and then sit back and watch participation in the Revolver division grow. Fund our prize table at the Nationals at an equivalent level. Support the US Revolver team that goes to the World Shoot. Straighten out the mess in the classification system that gives everybody the wrong impression that Jerry is the only one who can really do this stuff. Groom industry support, advertisers, and sponsors for Revolver. In other words, be fair to us.

Revo is real-deal. Look at the popular gun magazines out there....we're seeing more articles about DA revolvers than we've seen in the past 20 years. Look at AH--even Clint Smith has discovered how cool and useful wheelguns are, and Roy Huntington's encouraging him to talk about it! I see more revolvers on the shelves at the local gun stores, and under the arms of gun-show purchasers, than I have seen in many years. We are in the midst of a revolver renaissance not just within the competitive realm, but with respect to shooters and gun-owners in general.

But until USPSA sees what's going on right under its very nose, we need to point it out to them. Talk to your Area Director, and let him know it's important that Revolver be kept as a separate division. Drop an email to Michael Voigt, and anybody else you know who is a mover and shaker in USPSA. Make sure you keep it polite and positive.

Now is the time.

[AikiDale]

Well said.

I have not yet shot revolver in a match but if I ever get smart enough to divide by 6 I would like it to be available. If having more divisions somehow "watered down" another division, I suspect General Motors would have only one line of automobiles. We really should respect and promote our diversity, I hear it is even politically correct to do so.

Take a look at another sporting endeavor with multiple divisions, the Equestrians. The Dressage, Hunter/ Jumper, Three Day Eventing and Reigning folks all got together to form a stronger organization. You can take it to the bank a Dressage rider would not be caught dead in a Saddlebred get up, but horse people are horse people and they have found a way to work together for their mutual benefit and welfare.

We could use a little horse sense on occasion ourselves.

[MarkS_A18138]

open guns or nothing

[Jerry V]

Two weeks ago I got to talk to Area 1 Director Bruce Gary at the Area 1 Champ. about the Revolver Division's future. His opinion is that there is too many divisions and that his idea is to keep Open, Limited & Production Divisions and to have the rest as catagories. Of course I disagreed and stated since to compete with a revolver in USPSA is so different than a auto, we truly need our own Division. I also stated that the division is growing, though we only had 9 wheels at Area 1, that number would have without a doubt been higher if the IRC hadn't been the same weekend.

I invited Bruce to check out the discussions that was going on about what we want the Revolver Divsion to be and I've waited to see if he'd add his opinion before I wrote of our discussion on this forum, but now seemed like a good time to do so and perhaps he will now also. Bruce, if I've mistated any of our conversation, please correct me.

Jerry V.

[mcb]

If revolver and L-10 go away then I would, with much unhappiness, probably stop shooting USPSA. L-10 was the first division I shot because it fit the equipment I had. I then bought the equipment I wanted to shoot Revolver because it appealed to me the most of all the other divisions. If those two divisions go away then where would I go?

How do we let the PTB know that we want Revovler to stick around?

mcb

[XRe]

open guns or nothing

He says, w/ his Single Stack rig on...

When you look at the issue from the standpoint of those who must put on the matches, etc, you can see where having what appear to be low participation divisions could be a drag. The participation needs to be there to justify funding the prize table, etc. To that end - Carmoney is right on point. Growth is happening in revo - I think the participation on this forum makes that pretty clear. The only way to make that message clear to the BoD is to communicate it to them - and to evangelize the division and further increase participation.

Several things would help - and Mike is in the know, there. I think revo is a very cool division (even though I don't play there) - it's a specialist game, for sure, but it's very demanding.

I have to say, though - it strikes me that watering down the classification system might offer an unfair perspective on ability. Jerry *is* a GM - and for a reason. Until someone else starts running against him - or 95% of him - can they really be called a GM??? If I'm running 85% of M2, but think it's too hard to get to GM in Open, cause he's just that good, is it a fair assessment to change the Open classifications to allow me to be a GM??? Hmmm.... I can certainly understand where trying to make GM against him could be frustrating, as is the notion that you might not ever make GM in revo. Many of us have the same issue in the other divisions, though.....

Good luck, guys!!!

[Viggen]

There are essentially 3 divisions that bring in new people - L10. Production, and Revolver. Limited and Open are out of the mix. After folks have been shooting for a while they often migrate to L&O. Some folks may have been around too long and forget that. Later, many get bored with the hosefest in L&O and return to L10, Production, and Revolver.

Personally, I know folks who were going to give up shooting and just for the heck of it decided to try a revolver. This kept them interested - in all divisions.

Or is it a money issue? Would the elimenation of some divisions up the take for the L&O only crowd?

I am really sorry that the big mag elite is so entrenched.

[10mmdave]

open guns or nothing

So is this one of those "tongue in cheek" comments or is this guy just a tool

Edited June 29, 2006 by 10mmdave

[Merlin Orr]

open guns or nothing

Mark, you rabble rousing Single Stack shooting rascal...

Revolver. I'm for it. AS I AM FOR ALL THE DIVISIONS!

I am NOT going to whine, cry and bitch about picking up my marbles and going to the house it this or that Blah Blah Blah happens. I will spend my time composing a well thought out, articulate letter detailing my point of view and send it to the DOD with copies to everyone I can find an e mail address for including Front Sight Mag.

Giving Gary Stevens grief, or any other person who does not kowtow to your particular view of the ways things "oughta be" might make You feel good but does not one whit of good for the actual (or perceived) problem. If those here that have contributed so much effort to bitching and moaning about their grievances had expended the same energy trying to put forth something constructive to "those dark and evil beings lurking in the shadows with their hidden agendas" blah blah...there might have actually been some movement toward acceptance and recognition of whomever's favorite playpen.

Constructive criticism is fine if directed at working toward a solution. Non constructive criticism is nothing more than petty minded hatefulness.

Opinions are like A holes - this has been a opinion from an A hole.

[Carmoney]

open guns or nothing

So is this one of those "tongue in cheek" comments or is this guy just a tool

Nah, Mark's a good guy, he's just screwing with me!

Giving Gary Stevens grief, or any other person who does not kowtow to your particular view of the ways things "oughta be" might make You feel good but does not one whit of good for the actual (or perceived) problem.

Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure Gary Stevens is on our side of this issue. He's the same guy who offered to take our proposed division equipment rule changes back to the full board. I agree with Merlin's point that the tone of any discussion with the BOD needs to be civil and positive.

I have to say, though - it strikes me that watering down the classification system might offer an unfair perspective on ability. Jerry *is* a GM - and for a reason. Until someone else starts running against him - or 95% of him - can they really be called a GM??? If I'm running 85% of M2, but think it's too hard to get to GM in Open, cause he's just that good, is it a fair assessment to change the Open classifications to allow me to be a GM??? Hmmm.... I can certainly understand where trying to make GM against him could be frustrating, as is the notion that you might not ever make GM in revo. Many of us have the same issue in the other divisions, though.....

Dave, I'm not suggesting that we water down the classification system for Revo. In fact, I started another post on that very topic, expressing concern that somebody might game the local classifiers and make himself a Revo GM, even though he could never compete with many of us at major matches.

What you may not realize is that right now we don't have our own high hit factors, we're measured as a percentage off Limited. With so many of the classifiers non-revo-neutral, it makes GM an almost impossible goal for us. Even Jerry has earned his GM card (which he certainly and unquestionably deserves) not by shooting classifiers, but by winning major matches.

We can agree that the GM should be reserved for the top few in each division. I'm just saying that the Revo high hit factors should be calculated the same way in Revo that they are in the other divisions, leaving it a very difficult goal, but a goal that is still attainable by the highly-skilled practitioners in the division. Just like it is in every other division.

[pskys2]

Mike, run for Area Director next time.

L10, SS & Revo as Divisions can all play at club level. Major Matches can pick and choose and that may be the trend for the future.

Other Area's need to pick up the debate on what's best for the sport. If the BOD have an agenda to eliminate Divisions, speak up and explain it. If it's their personal likes/dislikes that will come out. If the membership doesn't like it, we'll have new Directors. If they don't care, we get what we deserve.

[MarkS_A18138]

open guns or nothing

So is this one of those "tongue in cheek" comments or is this guy just a tool

Just a friend of Mike's! Xre I ordered moon clip holders and a bigger release for my 625 this morning. I am going to shoot my 625 for about a month or so to better my trigger control. Thanks to nice people at Clark’s guns they are going to throw the stuff in my Daughters bag at Jr. camp and I will have it in time for Tuesday night shooting!!!

SS and Revo there is no substitution! And YES I do own an open gun and a Limited but I choose to shoot other classes! I also want to keep the choice!

I also would love to compete at a big match in Revo class but I am afraid of Sam! That boy can shoot!

[XRe]

What you may not realize is that right now we don't have our own high hit factors, we're measured as a percentage off Limited. ... I'm just saying that the Revo high hit factors should be calculated the same way in Revo that they are in the other divisions, leaving it a very difficult goal, but a goal that is still attainable by the highly-skilled practitioners in the division. Just like it is in every other division.

No, I didn't realize that - sorry if I missed it somewhere else. I wholeheartedly agree, here, if that's the case. L-10 suffers slightly from this, as well, in that L-10 basically uses the same classifier percentages as Limited (though they should be slightly closer together, of course).

With that being the case, it would effectively be impossible for you to make GM in revo, unless you beat Jerry in a big match, and even then, technically, you can't cause you really need 3 GMs in the div for it count for classification... and you can only have 1 right now...

[cliffwalsh]

I guess I type slow, Mike beat me ......AGAIN

I have to say, though - it strikes me that watering down the classification system might offer an unfair perspective on ability. Jerry *is* a GM - and for a reason. Until someone else starts running against him - or 95% of him - can they really be called a GM??? If I'm running 85% of M2, but think it's too hard to get to GM in Open, cause he's just that good, is it a fair assessment to change the Open classifications to allow me to be a GM??? Hmmm.... I can certainly understand where trying to make GM against him could be frustrating, as is the notion that you might not ever make GM in revo. Many of us have the same issue in the other divisions, though.....

Good luck, guys!!!

As much as we talk about classification here, I am always surprised that USPSA members have no idea what really goes on.

XRe, we are not compared to Jerry. We are compared to a % of the top limited score. There are some classifiers that we can get 100% with an average run and some we can get only 50% if we have the run of our lives.

All we are asking is to be compared to Jerry and other revolver shooters. If that was the case, it would be a great accomplishment to just make A or M. Now it is just a matter of choosing the right classifiers.

Edited June 29, 2006 by cliffwalsh

[pskys2]

Yes Sam Can! But, he doesn't rub it in when he beats you.

[pskys2]

Look at the 2005 Area 6 results for "Can You Count" (before it was a classifier). While JM won that course, a guy named Dan Carden was .18 slower and 1 point better. Only 1.03% off of JM's HF. Dan finally clawed his way up to "M" this year.

Like TGO, JM is a phenom at "Match Pressure". But, then there aren't that many other GM's names at the top of any Match either. It doesn't mean their shooting skill levels aren't comparable.

[XRe]

I guess I type slow, Mike beat me ......AGAIN

Heh heh... so did I

[underlug]

Two weeks ago I got to talk to Area 1 Director Bruce Gary at the Area 1 Champ. about the Revolver Division's future. His opinion is that there is too many divisions and that his idea is to keep Open, Limited & Production Divisions and to have the rest as catagories. Of course I disagreed and stated since to compete with a revolver in USPSA is so different than a auto, we truly need our own Division. I also stated that the division is growing, though we only had 9 wheels at Area 1, that number would have without a doubt been higher if the IRC hadn't been the same weekend.

I invited Bruce to check out the discussions that was going on about what we want the Revolver Divsion to be and I've waited to see if he'd add his opinion before I wrote of our discussion on this forum, but now seemed like a good time to do so and perhaps he will now also. Bruce, if I've mistated any of our conversation, please correct me.

Jerry V.

I personally know 5 revolvers that would have been at Area 1 had it not conflicted with the IRC. I would have been one of them

[Genghis]

Revo definitely needs to stay. I plan to shoot there at some point (had me a 625 but the sale fell thru). Revo is a distinct kind of gun that needs representation in this sport.

Scoring revo compared to Limited is unfair. It may have worked to get things started, but we should work to score revo based on revo scores.

Revo classification should be based on a broader sample of top scores. JM is MJ in his sport - so good he skews the ranking of everyone else.

L10 is a more arbitrary division, but if people like to shoot it then why should we kill it?

All the divisions have something to offer. I started in Limited because I was shooting a Para. Moved to Open when I found a good deal on a gun, so I could simplify things and not have to worry about sight alignment and reloads. Eventually I'd like to at least sample all the flavors!

[tightloop]

Genghis

What is your classification with the Open blaster? Have you ever shot anything but Open and Limited..? Just curious... Thanks

[mcb]

What you may not realize is that right now we don't have our own high hit factors, we're measured as a percentage off Limited. With so many of the classifiers non-revo-neutral, it makes GM an almost impossible goal for us. Even Jerry has earned his GM card (which he certainly and unquestionably deserves) not by shooting classifiers, but by winning major matches.

I did not realize this either but it explains why there is only one GM and not a small handfull of them in the revolver division.

Why do they do this? It seems simple enough to do it the right way like the other division.

Learning new things daily

mcb

[Merlin Orr]

It would be interesting to me to see what percentage of the total # of shooters are ranked GM vs the overall total # in each division. Like 1 per 100 or whatever #. I would think that if the classification system were fair and unbiased the numbers would be pretty even as to Gm shooters per 100.

[Cameron]

I shoot Open, and will probably stay there, however;

I think revo and SS should continue to stay divisions.

I think anybody, BOD included, that decides to exclude these divisions from the USPSA are doing noting more than segregating a minority.

I think said people should welcome any and all types of guns into respective divisions, and remember that we are all in it to shoot and have fun.

I like the fact that I can tell an IDPA shooter that any gun the fits in IDPA will fit in the USPSA.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

It's also obvious that we are still the forgotten step-child of USPSA, at least from the perspective of some of the current leadership.

And this is the attitude I have said I see on several occasions.

No one gives a rat's back side about revolver shooters except the revolver shooters. It is unfortunate, but that is the way it is.

I have not asked the A7 Director what his opinion is on this but if you are reading this, please respond. If not, I will ask next time I see you.

Regards,

Gary

[Cameron]

Round Gun,

There are many of us out there that care that do not shoot wheelies. Don't count us out yet!

I will personally send a note to the Area Directors, and i will encourage my peers to do so too.