Aggressive Shooters

[GmanCdp]

suddenly after going thru the cof with a group of shooters,you have a shooter start asking 6 or 8 questions while on the line while loading up on how to shoot the cof..then also the cof calls to start from behind cover, and the shooter inches out several times while adjusting his belt, and you realign him several times,and he readjusts himself out again...blah blah blah..do you get him a PE before he shoots,or just call it as he shoots?? or...do just nothing and waits till he get to a state match and let them handle it???

[Cameron]

If the rules have been broken, that is one thing. If they are not breaking the rules, you can't just hand out procedurals because they are asking questions and looking for the second shooting position they asked a question about.

Now if the shooter is clearly rehearsing the stage, well, that changes the results.

[Precision40]

If the shooter creeps out after "Shooter Ready?" and has to be reminded several times I would give a procedural, but anything before that command is fair game as long as their not rehearsing (air-gunning)

[Scooter]

Threaten him with a FTDR.

[Ted Murphy]

Rules say a procedural if they move after the standby command is given.

If he's fidgeting before the stand by command is given and it is slowing things down, give him a talk.

Could be he's a new shooter and anxious.

Ted

[bruce282]

Threaten him with a FTDR.

For what?

Bruce

[sfinney]

If you have an issue with the way he is conducting himself, let him know, and why. Be prepared to cite relevant rules and #s.

But don't just let it go, and let somebody else handle it later..... he will just respond "well, gee, no one else has ever told me that before, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong!"

[rubberneck]

It sounds fairly straight forward to me. If you have already adjusted him once and he repositions himself a second time in such a way as to not be behind cover let him shoot the stage and assign him a procedural.

FTDR, IMHO, is unwarrented in this case. Any advantage he got by repositioning himself is going to be offset by the procedural and then some. At some point he is going to realize that it isn't worth giving up three seconds for a tiny advantage.

[richardschennberg]

Have him unload and show clear and call the next shooter. Have him shoot last. If he asks why, tell him he has to stay in the start position. If no one is waiting, just don't start him until he stays in position. If he moves just before the timer goes off, let him shoot the stage and give one procedural for creeping.

[Jim Watson]

I told a shooter recently that I did not allow a gunfighter crouch on the start. Standing with hands naturally at sides is the phrase.

I have held the timer until some of the creepers have about fallen over from leaning into the stage; it is a fairly effective treatment.

[FTDR]

I told a shooter recently that I did not allow a gunfighter crouch on the start. Standing with hands naturally at sides is the phrase.

I have held the timer until some of the creepers have about fallen over from leaning into the stage; it is a fairly effective treatment.

where in the rule book does it state you must stand fully erect?, hands naturally at your side is one thing, but being hunched over a bit in the position you shoot is not against the rules at all, it is in fact a very good to be fully in the position you shoot from, and limit the movement when the timer goes off

[Mayonaise]

I think we need Time Out in the rule book. For those incidents that are more than a procedural and less than a FTDR.

[marinegrunt]

The one thing that makes me as a shooter and SO more than a little PO'ed is when you attend a match and the SO's are willfully ignorant of the rules. especially a large match. by willfully ignorant, I mean doing such assinine things as not counting hits on a target because they were shoot thrus thru a non threat. The rulebook came out in early 2005 it has been in effect since April 15-2005. Now if you are an SO and you are going to officiate take about an hour and read the 82 page book. Break out a highlighter. Pay attention, there will be a test. You will be graded by more than a few shooters, all of which own a rulebook and probably have read it. As for the "aggressive Shooter" there is only one rulebook reference to hands Starting position it is located on page 8 S9 of the current rulebook. ALL COF will be started with pistol holstered and safe, hands clear of equipment as directed by the SO unless other positions for the pistol are stipulated (table top,drawer, pack, purse, or in firing hand). If you would give an FTDR for movement between load and make ready and standby I would reply with an FTDR brought on by the FTRTRB Failure to read the RuleBOOK. A PE is earned by movement between standby and buzzer. NOT before Standby. the Command Load and make ready allow movement looking around the barricade etc. so long as no sight picture/airgunning takes place and falls under the Make ready command that was issued. An SO that has a problem with this is probably one of two things. 1. A range Nazi 2. A poor shooter that has a jealousy problem with an Aggressive "read better" Shooter.

[uscbigdawg]

If you would give an FTDR for movement between load and make ready and standby I would reply with an FTDR brought on by the FTRTRB Failure to read the RuleBOOK. A PE is earned by movement between standby and buzzer. NOT before Standby. the Command Load and make ready allow movement looking around the barricade etc. so long as no sight picture/airgunning takes place and falls under the Make ready command that was issued. An SO that has a problem with this is probably one of two things. 1. A range Nazi 2. A poor shooter that has a jealousy problem with an Aggressive "read better" Shooter.

Thank you.

Rich

Edited June 29, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[rvb]

The one thing that makes me as a shooter and SO more than a little PO'ed is when you attend a match and the SO's are willfully ignorant of the rules. especially a large match. by willfully ignorant, I mean doing such assinine things as not counting hits on a target because they were shoot thrus thru a non threat. The rulebook came out in early 2005 it has been in effect since April 15-2005. Now if you are an SO and you are going to officiate take about an hour and read the 82 page book. Break out a highlighter. Pay attention, there will be a test. You will be graded by more than a few shooters, all of which own a rulebook and probably have read it. As for the "aggressive Shooter" there is only one rulebook reference to hands Starting position it is located on page 8 S9 of the current rulebook. ALL COF will be started with pistol holstered and safe, hands clear of equipment as directed by the SO unless other positions for the pistol are stipulated (table top,drawer, pack, purse, or in firing hand). If you would give an FTDR for movement between load and make ready and standby I would reply with an FTDR brought on by the FTRTRB Failure to read the RuleBOOK. A PE is earned by movement between standby and buzzer. NOT before Standby. the Command Load and make ready allow movement looking around the barricade etc. so long as no sight picture/airgunning takes place and falls under the Make ready command that was issued. An SO that has a problem with this is probably one of two things. 1. A range Nazi 2. A poor shooter that has a jealousy problem with an Aggressive "read better" Shooter.

BIG +1.

Now, to the original topic, I would like to make a point. I am in not saying this was the case with the situation, I wasn't there, but here is a common and similar issue I have experienced...

Starting while looking around the cover at T1 ("pre-slicing") is acceptable!! I run into this all the time. Cover behind a vert baricade is defined as 100% of legs and 50% torso behind cover. As long as I meet this rule and am in the area defined as P1 (and the cof description doesn't say otherwise), I'm behind cover. Remember, it's ok to stay "eyes-on" for reloads, too. Too many SOs make up their own interpretations of the rules based on what they believe is "tactical." (Counter point, can you see a "tactical" situation in real life you might be eyeing a BG before resorting to drawing your gun? Or you gonna stand w/ your face in a wall?). I get "realigned" all the time, too. It's possible (depending on the exact cof) that this situation could really be a result of agressive SOing, vs agressive shooting.

Again, I wasn't there and this guy may have been moving after "Standby" or wasn't meeting the cover rules where a PE is warrented; I'm just relaying related experiences... food for thought.

rvb

Edited June 29, 2006 by rvb

[FTDR]

agreed marinegrunt

i have witnessed this at two sanctioned matches, the last one was at a standard stage, and the SO running the course was not giving people a shoot through on a non threat target, he pulled this on a person in our squad, and we had to call in the MD for a obvious ruling in the shooters favor, i hate to even think about all the people that day that lost time on their scores by this lousy SO

at club levels there are a few who do not know the rule book, and i hate it when i have to be the one to educate them, some i do not believe have even read the new book since its conception, they just go by hearsay

[f250sd]

"the Command Load and make ready allow movement looking around the barricade etc. so long as no sight picture/airgunning takes place and falls under the Make ready command that was issued. An SO that has a problem with this is probably one of two things. 1. A range Nazi 2. A poor shooter that has a jealousy problem with an Aggressive "read better" Shooter."

I agree. However last year at a major match, looking around the barricade at the start position was considered "rehearsing" by the SO and backed up by the MD. It was taking up with HQ's and their response, of course, was open to interpitation.

Let the shooter go through his routine, everyone has one, just some tend to be longer than others.

Edited June 30, 2006 by f250sd

[p99shooter]

I agree. However last year at a major match, looking around the barricade at the start position was considered "rehearsing" by the SO and backed up by the MD. It was taking up with HQ's and their response, of course, was open to interpitation.

Let the shooter go through his routine, everone has one, just some tend to be longer than others.

That actually happened before the shooter was at the line, while targets where being taped.

[Gregg K]

I agree. However last year at a major match, looking around the barricade at the start position was considered "rehearsing" by the SO and backed up by the MD. It was taking up with HQ's and their response, of course, was open to interpitation.

Let the shooter go through his routine, everone has one, just some tend to be longer than others.

That actually happened before the shooter was at the line, while targets where being taped.

Well if this guy was not up to the line to shoot and was doing this while others were taping, I can see where it would be considered rehersing and doing a personal walk through. You see this at some matches where a guy walks the COF with tape in his hand and never tapes a single target, they just walk the COF pausing at each firing point and checking out the targets. Some SO's get real tired of this tactic and have a low tollerence for it. He should have been taping or wait for the walk through if he had not already received one.

[ima45dv8]

You see this at some matches where a guy walks the COF with tape in his hand and never tapes a single target, they just walk the COF pausing at each firing point and checking out the targets.

Ah, yes! The "Phantom Pasters"!

Safe to say, IDPA doesn't have a choke-hold on these folks. They show up at USPSA matches, too.

Edited June 30, 2006 by ima45dv8

[f250sd]

Actually the shooter was up, standing at the start position, next to the SO, and looked around the first corner. Not a case of the phantom pasters, though they are out there. Something simular, but different happened to Taran Butler at the nationals also.

My point is to marinegrunts post, that I totally agree with, but there are others out there that call this "rehearsing". So one must be careful at different clubs.

Edited June 30, 2006 by f250sd

[marinegrunt]

My Point is mainly on most forums there is an outbreak of "what I would have done" as in I would have threatened an FTDR. Well maybe you would have but if you are going to offer an FTDR then maybe you should have the willingness to back the penalty with the rulebook and at least your interpretation of said rule. Otherwise you are seen as a seagull which craps on everything and leaves a mess. Whenever people say "it happened at a "major match" and do not say which match and "it was similiar" it makes me wonder whether there is any real SO's paying attention to the rulebook. Just because a shooter gets away with an error does not mean said error is now the law of the land. So should it be seen as if an SO and MD at a "Major Match" screw up on interpretation it should be recognised as a mistake and not become Precedent setting. For instance the Supreme Court screws up often and makes rules that are indeed contrary to the intent of the Constitution. Using international law as a guideline, do we in Idpa mimic them and use "uspsa law" to interpret our rules, no I happen to shoot both. And As an SO I believe we should enforce the rules in the arena we are playing in to the clearest and closest intent possible much as in Major league baseball. And as we always like the 2nd Amenment to the US Constitution so shall we as SO's and MD's (the governing bodies of the IDPA, at least on a local level) adhere to page 53 under SO's responsibility's # 2. Remember the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt. I believe that PE's and FTDR's should be dispensable to SO's and MD's for repeated failure to recognize the new rule book and adhere to the same. Repeated failure to read and/or understand the rulebook before a major match is Unsportsmanlike conduct. Have I been gigged at major matches? No, I have earned every PE I have received at a MM. I just notice unfair actions and it leaves a stain on the sport.

[f250sd]

I did not state which "major match" as to not offend the club or the involved, both incidents I refered to have been played out on this forum and the first one got out of hand and was closed by the BE Admin., so I wanted to stay away from it.

In the months after these two incidents of "rehersals", at monthly matches that is all you heard at matches, rehersal this, rehersal that. And it got old fast, and it drives away shooters.

I guess I've just got tired of the "I'm looking for any thing I can to call on a shooter mentallity that has seemed to become popular in IDPA. If the rule is black and white, call it. If you have to interpret a rule, then you need to give the shooter the benefit of doubt. I was a certified SO Instructor, but I have since allowed my membership to expire.

I also have not been gigged at matches, but when others have before you, it still effects you as well as others.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Sestock]

Discussions like this are the reason that I do not shot IDPA anymore.

[Jim Watson]

Pity.

Actual shooting of IDPA and Internet rants about IDPA rules and procedures are entirely separate sports.