Uspsa Slide - Competitive?

[dghboy315]

i think it is being called the USPSA Slide. but if i'm wrong, what i'm talking about is the shotgun reloading technique where the shooter rotates the shotgun w/ the weak hand so that the butt stock comes to rest on the strong shoulder and is locked against the cheek w/ the loading port either facing outward or up. then, the shooter reloads w/ the strong hand from a side saddle and/or a forearm carrier.

my question is whether this technique is cometitive at the top levels? do any of the top shooters use this method? what is the top speed of the technique?

just curious as i'm still trying to figure out the reloading technique. i've done searches but i have not found anything that specifically answers my questions. thanks.

[smokshwn]

I use this technique and loading one round at a time can reliably hit reloads in the 3-3.5 second range (shoot one reload 4 shoot one). Loading 4 rds at a time out of a shell carrier I can hit 3 second loads however the disaster factor is higher if you miss your shell grab.

Shawn Carlock makes it work very well.

[EricW]

Search Reveals the Following for the Carlock Shuffle

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...carlock+shuffle

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...carlock+shuffle

And it's all about the cookies, baby:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...carlock+shuffle

The technique is detailed in the July/Aug 2005 edition of Front Sight.

[kurtm]

Dave Neth uses that technique, and is pretty handy at it, as does Shawn. Those are the only two that I know of. I have a sneeking suspision that you will see Dave loading weakhand in the near future He was observed getting a few pointers on that technique, as well as Mr. Cramblit, at the CMMG mid-continent 3-gun match from Mr. Weakhand. Dave picked it up sooo fast that it scares me! KURT

[P.E. Kelley]

You will find and “old” article posted at www.multigun.com that briefly describes some reloading techniques.

In the time since its publication David Neth introduced me to his technique on the eve of a 3 gun Nationals. I have every reason to believe he developed what I then dubbed the “Neth Slide” independently. Further research revealed a Texas beginning with Rod Current as an early practitioner of the “slide” and Rod credits still another shotgunner with its origins.

The slide and the shuffle are quite different in how the shells are manipulated into the magazine. The slide extracts and loads one shell at a time. The shuffle is credited to long range riflesmith Shawn Carlock. His technique has the strong hand grasping 4 shells off the belt and forming a “magazine” with the hand that “shuffles” across the loading port feeding the rounds into the magazine tube. While it CAN be done with and unmodified loading port the technique is best accomplished after a considerable relieving of material from the receiver to allow the “hand magazine” greater access.

After my trip to the U.K. and having to beg and borrow 3 Gun Gear side saddles, arms bands, forend holders (even ones angled the wrong way!) to fit the borrowed shotgun, I decided right then to adopt Kurt’s proven (Colorado or Rhode’s or Kurt’s )weak hand method. No need for stuff hanging off your (or borrowed) gun and no real need for modification to use.

Clear and mud eh?

PK

[dghboy315]

i should have made myself clearer... i am NOT talking about the Carlock Shuffle. like what smokshwn wrote, from what i understand, the Carlos Shuffle is when you grab 3-4 shells in your strong hand from a shot shell carrier on your belt and load them by sliding them back and forth along the receiver and loading gate. i have done the searches for this method.

i am talking about loading one shell at a time from a side saddle or forearm carrier. is this technique competitive? is this techinque used by any top shooters? how fast can you go? is there a name for this method? the slide?

Edited June 15, 2006 by dghboy315

[codyb]

I don't know about a name or who else is using it but I reload at just under a second per round using the slide and I can surely see room for improvment. Cody

[mike.45]

No need for stuff hanging off your (or borrowed) gun and no real need for modification to use.

Its even better when that borrowed shotgun actually works !

Edited June 16, 2006 by mike.45

[kurtm]

Dave Neth loads just like you posted, I threw Shawn in there just because it also goes over the shoulder. Sorry to confuse the issue. I think ALL the top shooters load this way....except for the 98% that don't Is it viable?? Yes, but only if you practice a lot, but that is the common thread for all the loading techniques. Of all the loading techniques I do know which one is the most neutral for movement, both left and right, up and down, and ONLY ONE that works while prone under a baricade or car, but that wasn't your question. Dave Neth is the answer to do any top shooters use the "slide". KURT

[Yar1180]

i am talking about loading one shell at a time from a side saddle or forearm carrier. is this technique competitive? is this techinque used by any top shooters? how fast can you go? is there a name for this method? the slide?

Cooly Twist as in Ben Cooly. Yes it's competitive.

[kellyn]

Cooley ..... not Cooly. The Cooley "method" is a bit more involved than simply loading one at a time off sidesaddles and/or armbands. Cooley retains his forward grip with his left hand on the handguard when he "twists" the shotgun upside down to load. This brings the shotgun closer to the shooter's face. I don't care for it myself since I have trouble moving with the shotgun up that high. It is obviously competitive given Bennie's success.

I load one at a time off the side saddles and armband but I break my forward grip and move my left hand towards the receiver when I turn the shotgun upside down to load. So I must reacquire my forward grip as I return the shotgun to my shoulder - an extra move that Bennie does not have to make. I don't feel that Bennie loads a shotgun any faster (or slower) than me.

A good video example of the one at time method versus the weakhand method can be found by comparing the videos of me and Kurt Miller shooting the same stage at the 2005 Mystery Mountain 3 Gun on www.multigun.com. Kurt's (and Taran's and Eddie's etc. etc) is no doubt faster but more disaster prone if you screw it up. I beat Kurt in the stage but only because I shot faster. He actually loads faster than I do in the videos.

There are other methods of loading a standard/limited/tactical shotgun as well. TGO won the Limited Shotgun portion of the USPSA 3 gun nationals last time he shot it (2002??). Robbie simply dismounts the shotgun and grabs a bunch of shells with his strong hand from a shell caddy and stuffs them in strong handed.

So pick a method and master it and you'll be competitive.

[dghboy315]

thanks all, that's exactly the info i was looking for. basically i have decided on the Slide as my reloading technique primarily for the low fumble factor. i like it alittle more than the Twist b/c i like the support of the buttstock on the shoulder, and for me, it feels faster from mount to shoulder and vice versa.

see ya all out there.

Edited June 26, 2006 by dghboy315

[StealthyBlagga]

thanks all, that's exactly the info i was looking for. basically i have decided on the Slide as my reloading technique primarily for the low fumble factor. i like it alittle more than the Twist b/c i like the support of the buttstock on the shoulder, and for me, it feels faster from mount to shoulder and vice versa.

see ya all out there.

I load my 1187 the old fashioned way... dismount, invert at belly-button level, cradle the shotgun with the weak hand right over the chamber (careful not to get burned) and stuff in the shells one at a time from the sidesaddle, forearm carrier or chest bandolier using my strong hand. Maybe not as fast as the more bizarre method, but it has a very low fumble-factor, particularly when moving. It also allows good peripheral vision, allows flexibility of movement, and is adaptable as you pull shells from different locations on the body. Works for me.

[kurtm]

I am now a bit querious. What makes people think that weak hand loading has a "high fumble factor"? If it did, wouldn't I be WAY behind on shotgun stages? Since I can sometimes beat the open guys on a stage or two using weak hand loading while they use speed loaders, wouldn't a high fumble factor completely negate these performances? Or do you all think that this only happens once in a while? My shotgun performance has been very consistent match to match, and I usually win the shotgun portion, if not I am 2-3 NEVER lower. If this was so fumbly, just think how well someone who loads a "different" way would do....oh wait....some people do right now! KURTM

[bigbrowndog]

KURT, i know when i started, i fumbled shells, and when i get in a hurry i fumble shells.

GUESS WHAT FIXES THAT.......PRACTICE AND DON'T HURRY, AND THEN PRACTICE SOME MORE.

a friend of mine made a great analogy, "the shells want to go into the gun, if you try and force them they fight back"........so don't force them.

holding 3,4,or 5 shells in your hand and trying to stuff them into your gun, can make for a very humbling experience, as opposed to one at a time.

just look at it as making us...... UNIQUE!!!

I started out 3gun using the cooley twist, and occasionally still do, when space constraints are small, which is rare. it is a very easy way to start out in 3 gun.

trapr

[kurtm]

Me, Taran, Rob Woods, Chris Perez, Trapr, Ed Rhodes, Eric Miller, Mike Darby, reigning English shotgun champion ( and the rest of the 40 someodd English shotgun shooters that are team England. Kim Schioldan. Yep! that about takes care of the uniqueness aspect, but IF IT WERE so darn fumbly WHY do so many of the top shooters use it??? KURTM

[sargenv]

Personally, and I'm not great Shotgon competitor btw, I tried both the method Taran Uses and the method that Cooley uses and for me, the Cooley method is more natural and under stress of the timer, I do better with it. Now if I had a pistol grip on my shotgun like Taran does, I think his method might be faster, but he also has big hands. I can't grab more than three shells at a time from the belt carriers. I use the same shotgun for hunting as I do 3-gunning, a Browning Gold, and I keep my side saddle on it when hunting. It provides me with a very fast 4th shot when I run dry shooting game and more than once that 4th shot has gotten me birds. The one advantage I might have over most is Browning's speed feed function when running dry, so maybe for me it works pretty good. If I don't run dry it's not a big a deal. People who are serious 3-gunners have commented that I'm pretty quick on the load, maybe becaue I started on shotguns when I was like 12 (39 now).

Vince

[Dan Sierpina]

Unique? Aren't we all unique in a way? Until recently, I had taken a long break from IPSC style shooting. The pistol hasn't changed, well toooo much. Shotgun, however is far different. When I left, shotguns were mostly used in side matches, not 30 round courses. I still love my old Winchester Super X, not one of the modern ones. The problem is loading with it, not just loading, but having to reengage the carrier release to have it work afterwards. Rolling it over and kind of a slide with 3 or 4 shells worked pretty well, if the sequence of pressing the button, loading, pressing again worked out. I guess the loading really isn't much slower than the different techniques for any model, it did seem so, though. So, I recently bought a Benelli, an M2 field, 21" barrel, stuck on an SRM extension, and shot it. I'm practicing loading weak handed, and like it. No more fumbles than with the Winchester. When you think about it, we make our pistol reloads with our weak hand, rifles also. What's the problem with stuffing 1, 2 , 3 or more shells into the bottom of our shotguns in similar fashion??? Never mind that last comment.....keep loading with your strong hand and rolling the gun, putting them on your shoulder, etc!!!!! The thing is, choose your technique, and practice, as you'd practice with your pistol! That is the key to proficiency.

Kurt, I'm sorry if I may have taken your edge away.

[bigbrowndog]

the key is.......pick something and practice it.

so many people complain that the shotgun outcome in a match is decided, by how fast you can load. well think about how poorly you would do if you couldn't load your pistol, quickly.

it also seems these people try to avoid loading practice.....which i doubt they did with te pistol.

granted some peoples build and hand size is better suited to one at a time, just practice what method you want to use.

Trapr

[kurtm]

Yes practice, practice, practice. I agree!! But I still beg the question why do all of you think weak-hand loading is fumble prone? If it were, I know I wouldn't use it, and for sure Taran wouldn't, nor would.... well you see what I mean. BTW I don't use a pistol grip on any of My shotguns...yea I know, but I mean the kind that stick down all by themselves like an AR ok? I agree it is the same kind of motion as loading a pistol and rifle ( unless you use an M1), but after all the proof that it is as reliable as ANY other method, and in my mind, and timer, faster why do all of you think it is FUMBLY????

[kurtm]

oops, I fumbled with the key board...must be my weak mind

Edited September 1, 2006 by kurtm

[smokshwn]

Kurt,

To answer your question I think people get caught up in the transition of loading one at a time to loading multiples. If they botch the grab or load of a single all they lose is the single where as if they screw up a grab or load with four in their hand they lose four.

When I initially started practicing loading four with the Carlock Shuffle I got to a point where my times loading one at a time were essentially the same as loading with a multiple. It took a lot of practice to finally get past that and I think that is where a lot of folks get stuck and either don't want to do the extra work or let their mind determine that loading multiples isn't worth it.

???????

[Religious Shooter]

I think weakhand IS more fumble prone initially. But as noted that can be beaten by practice.

Most people are more dextrous with their strong hand than they are with their weak hand. I think that's the main reason why people say weakhand is more fumble prone.

You take a newbie and you show him/her a weakhand technique and then the stronghand technique and I'd say that 90% of the time they will perform better with the stronghand mainly because of the difference in dexterity between the two hands.

But that initial difference can be erased by practice... and even more practice.

I think it is worth it. Overall IMHO the general weakhand style is the superior technique. I think it's sort of like Weaver (stronghand) vs. Iso (weakhand). Both handgun stances were there at the beginning of practical shooting. But the superior technique came to fore.

That said ... I've seen the videos of KurtM and KellyN at SMM3G... I've taken a class from Cooley where he showed us his technique... I've squaded with B Hill and Taran and saw them reload. All good reloaders.

But the only time I've ever seen someone reload and thought "DAYYYYUUMMMM!!!!" was in Albany when I was squaded with Shawn Carlock. When he is running 100% that shuffle technique is the SHJT!!! Totally bad ass.

[MKuhn]

I’m a newbe and had loaded strong hand, however when shown weak hand; it was far simpler, required less interchange and easer to do on the move. Its not a mater of dexterity, you must be open to alternatives, if you don’t apply your self your right, but its not lack of dexterity its just lack of application and practice.

Mell

[Religious Shooter]

M-W definition of DEXTERITY

1 : mental skill or quickness : ADROITNESS

2 : readiness and grace in physical activity; especially : skill and ease in using the hands <manual dexterity>

We normally practice because we want to either maintain or increase our dexterity in whatever we are practicing.

How is it not a matter of dexterity? I think everything we do is about dexterity.