Single Stack, Live Or Die?

[pskys2]

After shooting Revolver almost exclusively for the last 3 years I've come to the conclusion that being friendly to a certain round count isn't a big deal. Everyone in a Division will have the same course. Just makes you think more, hopefully only before the timer starts. By then it's a personal thing.

IF SS doesn't make it, maybe USPSA should consider just lowering the L10 to an L8? But, that's a few years away.

[38superman]

I hope that SS division survives but only time will tell.

The first major match of the year was the Florida Open.

It had:

68 in Producton

42 in L10

8 in SS

5 in Rev

My prediction is that SS will survive but that may be more wishful thinking than reality.

I really thought the the 1911 shooters would all move out of L10 once they had a place to call home.

In L10 you're going up against downloaded double stacks and just about any other gun you can name.

A 1911 can definately be competitive in L10, but I would expect the 1911 crowd would prefer to shoot in a division of their own.

The only reason I can see to stay in L10 is the advantage of 2 additional rounds.

Personally, I never really liked having the 10 round mags hanging out of the grip.

I guess a lot of people just don't want to face those 30 to 40 round hose fests with 8+1.

Who can blame them?

If you come to the line with 5 mags (one goes in the gun and 4 on the belt) thats only 40 rounds.

If you let mags hit the ground with a few rounds in them, burn extra shots on steel or drop a mag you're toast.

You could carry more than 5 but you would end up pulling magazines from the middle of your back.

Tls

Edited April 21, 2006 by tlshores

[SteveZ]

A 1911 can definately be competitive in L10, but I would expect the 1911 crowd would prefer to shoot where the playing field is level.

because of the lack of a mass exodus of single stack shooters from L10...one might theorize that either they don't view themselves to be at a disadvantage, their 1911 single stacks aren't SSD legal ... or they don't want to invest in new equipment (mags and holsters).

Edited April 21, 2006 by SteveZ

[Kyreb]

Stage design should have nothing to do with it. Every SS guy will suffer the same.

Not if you are dumped into L-10 at the end of the day

[Steve J]

I hope that SS division survives but only time will tell.

The first major match of the year was the Florida Open.

It had:

68 in Producton

42 in L10

8 in SS

5 in Rev

Double Tap Championship 06

Double Tap Ranch Gun Club

3/24/06

Limited-10 20

Production 20

Revolver 2

Single Stack 11

[Alan Meek]

And why would SS shooters get dumped into L-10 at the end of the day?

[Ron Ankeny]

Gary:

I know SS is in it's infancy and it's too early to make a call. I look at this thread as more of "How was SS Provisional Division accepted in your club?"

Here's what I have seen in Wyoming, even though we are so small as to almost be considered insignificant. First off, obviously all of our single stack shooters were already in L10 when SS was put in place. At first I was kind of fired up about SS because I was going to shoot it minor with a .38 Super. Instead, I am shooting minor in Limited 10 with a .45 (arthritis). So, when a new shooter comes to our club, all of the exisitng SS shooters are in L10. Our new shooters have decided to go ahead and purchase 10 round mags and shoot with the rest of the crew rather than to shoot in SS Provisional alone. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, not one single shooter shot in L10 last summer in any of our matches with a downloaded fat Limited gun.

Then there is the issue of new shooters not earning a SS classification from the get go. It seems like the new shooters who want to shoot the Cheyenne Challenge, Casper Challenge, Hole Shoot (major matches for our state), etc., want to do so with a classification in a division that has more than one or two entries. So, L10 it is, for now. The only way I can see things changing would be a mass exodus from L10 to SS by existing shooters and I don't see that happening.

FWIW, we do support the idea of SS Division and we explain that option to new shooters. But, as you know, our actions speak louder than our words.

And why would SS shooters get dumped into L-10 at the end of the day?

Maybe to give them a chance at an award even though it ain't Kosher. I shot a fairly large match in Colorado once as an Open Master, but there were only three Masters in Open. We were combined with the Open Grand Masters. It didn't bother me any, but I can see where some guys might not like it one bit and there most certainly is nothing in the rules to allow such a move. Edited April 21, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[Gary Stevens]

The classification data entry was a deal breaker. I had to make a choice of having the Division accepted provisionally without the classification data entered until and if it became a full division, or having nothing.

I am having a little problem getting my head around the issue of the classification data not being entered at this time. We have a rule that says you can't have a classification more than one class lower than your highest classification. If a shooter is an "A" class shooter in Open, Limited, L-10, Production, and since this is hypothetical even Revolver, he/she can not be lower than "B" class in Single Stack even if the data were entered. If that same shooter is trying to make "M", they have ample oportunity to do it in any of the above divisions and apparently haven't accomplished it. Why would they think they can make "M" with a Single Stack? Maybe I just am too dense to see the big picture on this.

I want to offer a few changes next year, one of which is to use the highest classificaion on record, other than "Open", unless "Open" is your only classificaiton on file.

The bottom line is I could not get the classification data entered and have a Single Stack Division also. I did the best I could do at the time to get the division off the ground.

Gary

[Kyreb]

And why would SS shooters get dumped into L-10 at the end of the day?

Not enough competitors was the reason I was given at one match....at two others they did not offer SS as a division (told that after I showed up though, not at the end of the day)

BTW...I am not b!tchin....just stating stuff that happened. Heck, I just saw it as practice anyway. I am sure with more SS participation, these situations would have been rectified. Both were small affairs and I think I may have been the sole guy shooting SS.

The thing is..if this stuff happened to a new guy or a possible new convert from IDPA, they might not come back. I want to see our sport grow and SS survive as much as anybody.

[Jaxshooter]

I agree with Doug. If Single Stack is going to make it we need to have the classifiers count and use them for classes. The classification system of using your highest class will not work. There is a problem with shooters coming back from IDPAand NRA Action Pistol do not have a classification. Do you expect people to shoot all year unclassified and get waxed by better shooters who are also unclassified for the year or maybe 3 years under the "provosional single stack division". Just my thoughts. I have shot SS at two shoots this year, one had 2 shooters and one had 3 in SS. Not much fun.

[Gary Stevens]

Well no I don't expect them to shoot unclssified for a year or three. I have outlined the simple work around for this numerous times and it was covered, I believe, in the initial article in Front Sight. A new shooter signs up in L-10, which is pretty close to Single Stack, and gets a classification. He/she can then is automatically given that L-10 classification for his/her Single Stack classification. Unfortunately I do not operate in the world I would like, but the world I have. It was this or nothing.

Gary

Edited April 21, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[simonsay]

It was this or nothing.

Gary

Fact is, if "this" fails, you have already converted some from the other games that will either get some longer mags or a different gun. I'm still keeping my fingers x'd.

Congrats

[boo radley]

I am having a little problem getting my head around the issue of the classification data not being entered at this time....

Gary

Gary, IMO, the problem isn't so much with existing experienced shooters (and I suspect those are the majority of current SS shooters) but with new and newish shooters.

Right or wrong, classifiers are exciting stuff, and there's a chicken/egg thing going on. Suppose a new shooter gets an initial classification in L10 as a D, or C. I'll bet they're going to want to try to improve their classification, but those are also exactly the shooters you need to move over to SS, and if they do, they can't improve their classification (for now).

[Gary Stevens]

Trust me guy, I understand there are difficulties involved in this. Some of these things are as I said earlier "work arounds". That new shooter can shoot an additional classifier each month in L-10 but using their Single Stack legal equipment. This additional classifier has the ability to move their L-10 classification up and also move their Single Stack classifier up because of being joined together.

This is a problem we understand and are actively pursuing ways to aleviate it. However, the box of tools is small. The only perfect answer, from the stand point of those who want this division, is to throw the switch and make it full time. The one tool that will not make it better is standing on the sidelines, arms folded, waiting for an absolute perfect solution to all of the potential issues.

There are ways to, do I dare use the words again, "work around" all of the problems. There just has to be the desire to do so. Attack these problems the same way you would attack a course of fire, think freestyle and make it work.

Gary

[XD Niner]

I am currently shooting L-10 until the Area 6 Championship Match in two weeks. After that, I intend to try my hand at SS. I already have all the mags and the rest of the gear but have held off until the large matches in my neck of the woods are complete. I'm looking forward to trying it next month.

With regard to classification, I frequently shoot a second classifier in production or L-10. I always shoot the opposite of what I am shooting for the match. I'll probably continue this practice with SS and shoot a second classifier in either L-10 or Production. This seems like the best of both worlds to me.

[Alan Meek]

Gary,

That is exactly what I have done, I shelved my open guns, which I have pretty much shot exclusively the majority of my time in USPSA. Like I posted above I will shot SS in all major matches, (except the Open nationals) that I will attend this year and the next two years. At all local matches that are not Classifier Matches I will also shoot SS.

While this is not a perfect solution, for me that is what will make it work for me.

Alan

[Gary Stevens]

Good job Alan. Look me up in Tulsa, I'll be shooting the Production gun out there.

Gary

[Chuck D]

SS Division will not fail for the following reasons...

1. 3 years worth of "provisional" status will give birth to a "following" that will howl wildly if "their" investments in SS guns, mags and gear are rendered obsolete by the death of the division. An effective argument that has been used before.

2. SS will (in my opinion) become L10's replacement when L10 is relegated to category status in Limited Division. If this were not to be the case...then why not add SS to the classification system from the get-go? No one will openly admit this but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the potential for this outcome.

3. There is the belief that SS will allow SS manufacturers to return to the sport as sponsors in the manner that they did before the advent of the Wide Body frame. I look forward to this happening by the way.

It honestly doesn't matter one iota if big numbers participate in SS division. It's here to stay because it is seen to have marketing and shooter crossover (from idpa) value.

[Goblin086]

I think time will tell. Every Area is different throughout the country. I shot the South Carolina Sectional last week and was one of four that shot SS. So, I'm back to shooting L-10 for the competition.

[Sestock]

The five clubs in the Greater Pittsburgh area through the first one and a half months of the season there have been 330 shooters.

The breakdown of participation is:

Prod 29%

Limited 28%

Open 23%

Lim 10 12%

Single Stack 8%

Revolver 2%

Edited April 22, 2006 by Sestock

[simonsay]

I shot the South Carolina Sectional last week and was one of four that shot SS. So, I'm back to shooting L-10 for the competition.

Catch 22

[Ron Ankeny]

Gary:

Thanks for explaining all of that again. I had forgotten or just didn't pay attention the first time. It's pretty obvious you made the best choices of those available to you. FWIW, I spoke with a couple of guys who have been shooting L10 with single stacks and we are going to shoot SS Provisional off and on this summer as a sign of support and to hopefully encourage other shooters. Personally, I like 10 round mags and I would really hate to see L10 go away.

[Gary Stevens]

One thing I have noticed that is a good side benefit of the Single Stack, is my accuracy has greatly improved. Simply put when you are limited to 8+1 you have to make them count. Actually watching the sight and making a good trigger pull is becoming more natural with the SS than when I am shooting a higher capacity gun. I hope that this carries over when I switch back to the increased capacity guns.

I don't mean this in any disrespect, but I think some are hesitant to give up the 2 extra rounds that L-10 gives you because they doubt their accuracy potential and may need to make up a shot or two.

Gary

[Jim Norman]

For the Classifer situation, why can't the DB be tagged. Use the SS classifer in L-10 as it is, no reshoot required. Tag the Classifers and IF/WHEN SS becomes a live division, port them across from L-10. There are two possibilities here, one is leave then in l-10 as well as porting across, the second is to remove them from l-10.

In fact, I would process the SS scores right now and even though it is a provisional division, show the results. If the division goes away, move the scores to L-10, if it doesn't, then the classifers are already in and the shooters know where they stand.

Both of the above are better solutions than the current: Shoot the classifer, we'll hold it for a couple years and if you want a classifer to count, then shoot a second one.

Jim Norman

Edited for really bad spelling or even worse typing

Edited April 24, 2006 by Jim Norman

[Bergie]

In Minnesota we had 11 shooters in single stack division yesterday at a match that had 61 competitors.

It seems to be going well here!

Good Luck